would you be for a southern country?

#127
#127
I've read quite a few times about suspected atheists but of course they couldn't come out then or they would have been run out of town. Good thing times have changed...
 
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#128
#128
utvolpj said:
I've read quite a few times about suspected atheists but of course they couldn't come out then or they would have been run out of town. Good thing times have changed...
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B-b-b-b-but... they ran from England to avoid religious persecution and... what? People couldn't express that they didn't believe without being persecuted?
 
#129
#129
utvolpj said:
then why doesn't the Constitution mention that importance? Adams was around while it was being written (I alluded to him in my post) yet didn't feel the need to insert that little tidbit? Why, if the US is truly a Christian nation, did they make sure to keep them apart?
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They envisioned a federal gov't that had virtually no influence on daily life or the governance of society. They wanted a small central gov't that dealt with "national" not local much less personal issues. They believed in self-governance. Their writings indicate that many or most believed that Christianity was a major factor in maintaining peace and civil order.

There's also a reason the bible was the most quoted as it was about the only book most had access to
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Not true. Few founders were deists, atheists, or agnostics. Several were classical scholars who were well read and versed in multiple languages to include Latin. Latin was the universal language of scholars even at that time.


Here's a list of the religions of the founders derived from a book published by the Interior Dept in 1976:

Religion of the Founding Fathers of America

Here is a more partisan article concerning the number of founders who actually attended seminary... almost half.

The Myth of the Separation of Church and State American's Founding Fathers: Deists or Christians video by David Barton
 
#130
#130
utvolpj said:
I've read quite a few times about suspected atheists but of course they couldn't come out then or they would have been run out of town. Good thing times have changed...
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Who would the suspects be? That would be interesting to know. I have read were they disagreed in religious discussions, but no mention of atheism.
 
#132
#132
ugggghhhhh...david barton...remember my parents church dedicated church srvices to his videos........although that was one of the factors of me breaking away from hardcore legalistic indy baptist
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#133
#133
sorry...soap box time.....this drives me nuts...its like people holding the apostles in high regard....they were bumbling self centeted twits..... same goes with the founders.........not pias thee and thou praying on the street corner....freedom and $$$$$ is more like it
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#134
#134
utvolpj said:
I've read quite a few times about suspected atheists but of course they couldn't come out then or they would have been run out of town. Good thing times have changed...
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It doesn't bother me one iota if they were. The founders ascribed (as do most of those you are throwing stones at and are so distru****l of) to the ideal of the sovereignty of the individual. The state DOES NOT have the right to impose religion.

Interesting that so many take Jefferson's correspondance with Danbury so completely out of context. Jefferson was not the "expert" lecturing the Baptists. The Baptists had a LONG tradition of believing in the separation of church and state. He didn't make the phrase up... in fact, Baptists wrote it into their confessions more than 100 years earlier.

They wrote it not long after the last English martyr, Edward Wightman a Baptist, was killed. They wrote it during the period when John Bunyan and others were sent to prison for years... for preaching without a license issued by the Church of England. http://www.wightmanfamily.com/wgtedwrd.html

Christians are united (perhaps in a religiously compromised way) right now to push back against those who would confiscate their right to believe AND practice their religion. If that threat were no longer there in the form of "law"... those groups would go back to their normal state of separation, competition, and sometime antagonism.

If you have been around churches any time at all... you should know that without an outside threat, there's little danger of them being very united on anything... as shameful as that is when it comes to Christian duties such as evangelism and charity.
 
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#135
#135
BeecherVol said:
Who would the suspects be? That would be interesting to know. I have read were they disagreed in religious discussions, but no mention of atheism.
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Jefferson was close...he authored a version of the bible with all the moral lessons and none of the superstitious and miracle nonsense.

I don't think Franklin was, he loved fornicating too much.

At best they were deists, and I would even venture to say Washington was included in the deist camp.

"Question with boldness even the existence of God; because, if there be one, he must more approve of the homage of reason than that of blindfolded fear." - Thomas Jefferson

"Religions are all alike - founded upon fables and mythologies." - Thomas Jefferson

"History, I believe, furnishes no example of a priest-ridden people maintaining a free civil government." - Thomas Jefferson

"In no instance have . . . the churches been guardians of the liberties of the people." - James Madison

" The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity." - John Adams

"Lighthouses are more helpful than churches." - Benjamin Franklin
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#136
#136
OrangeEmpire said:
sorry...soap box time.....this drives me nuts...its like people holding the apostles in high regard....they were bumbling self centeted twits..... same goes with the founders.........not pias thee and thou praying on the street corner....freedom and $$$$$ is more like it
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Whats wrong with giving credit when its deserved with the understanding they were human and fallible at the same time.
 
#137
#137
sjt18 said:
It doesn't bother me one iota if they were. The founders ascribed (as do most of those you are throwing stones at and are so distru****l of) to the ideal of the sovereignty of the individual. The state DOES NOT have the right to impose religion.

Interesting that so many take Jefferson's correspondance with Danbury so completely out of context. Jefferson was not the "expert" lecturing the Baptists. The Baptists had a LONG tradition of believing in the separation of church and state. He didn't make the phrase up... in fact, Baptists wrote it into their confessions more than 100 years earlier.

They wrote it not long after the last English martyr, Edward Wightman a Baptist, was killed. They wrote it during the period when John Bunyan and others were sent to prison for years... for preaching without a license issued by the Church of England.

Christians are united (perhaps in a religiously compromised way) right now to push back against those who would confiscate their right to believe AND practice their religion. If that threat were no longer there in the form of "law"... those groups would go back to their normal state of separation, competition, and sometime antagonism.
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Who is confiscating the right for Christians to believe and practice their beliefs?

Would you be cool with school stopping 5 times a day so Muslims can pray? Not doing so, aren't they having their right to practice their religion infringed upon?
 
#139
#139
OrangeEmpire said:
ugggghhhhh...david barton...remember my parents church dedicated church srvices to his videos........although that was one of the factors of me breaking away from hardcore legalistic indy baptist
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It is either true and documented or it isn't. Personal bias really has nothing to do with that.
 
#141
#141
BloodRUNZOrange said:
I just was interested in everyones feedback. sense there are oviouse challenges in keeping this country together with our cultural and political differences in this country in the age of information in the 21st century.

would anyone be for trying for a southern confederacy again?

would you take someone seriously if a major political figure rallied people to a southern cause?

i was just wondering what people thought about somthing like this..

try and take it seriously bc im writing a paper on this and i really would like to hear what people think about this.. thanks!
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Absolutely not. I can't imagine any benefit for the Southern Confederacy.
 
#143
#143
rjd970 said:
Who is confiscating the right for Christians to believe and practice their beliefs?
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Can a valedictorian pray at commencement? Has the positive influence of religion on American history been pretty much purged from public school books? Can creation be taught in public schools?

I am not suggesting I want those things. I am demonstrating that the inability to do those things shows gov't involvement in education creates constitutional problems... that can only be resolved by getting gov't out. You cannot say "No pray at public school football games" without infringing on the "free practice thereof"... nor can you have prayer at football games without infringing on the establishment clause or the free practice clause or both.

What's up with the Air Force now telling chaplains they cannot pray in "Jesus name"? Chaplains have been doing that since Washington established the Chaplain's corps.

What is the point of the gay marriage movement and how would that impact the religion of business owners, landlords, youth sports associations, boy scouts, etc.?

I really do not want religion in gov't. I want gov't out of the daily lives of people and the culture and the direction of our society. Let the free marketplace of ideals work its own way out.

Would you be cool with school stopping 5 times a day so Muslims can pray? Not doing so, aren't they having their right to practice their religion infringed upon?
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Yes... very much so... as they attended a school of their choice paid for with vouchers that accommodated that practice.

Same with a business if they chose to make that allowance.

I do not begrudge ANYONE'S religious choice. I see their right to disagree with me as a securement of my right to disagree with them.
 
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#144
#144
Coach Grizz said:
WTF???? I've lived in the south all of my life and I love it but if the south became it's own nation, my ass is going to California!! It won't be safe for a brotha around here!!
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Give me a break. I live out west. There's a reason why the south's minority population is growing faster than any other region...there's opportunity, the weather's great, and it's not any more racist than the rest of the country.
 
#145
#145
OrangeEmpire said:
sure........barton is a reach
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It is either true and documented or it is not. You don't have to like him. You can hold onto whatever antagonism you have for fundamental Baptists. But truth isn't one bit influenced by your biases.
 
#146
#146
HSVol said:
More freedom? I can think of a very few restrictions that are debatable including drugs and gay rights, but other than some progressive social issues, how are we oppressed?
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Coach Grizz said:
More freedom to do what?
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I'm kind of dumfounded by this question. I guess some people don't realize how limited our freedom is. You can't buy raw milk (even though people love it and are convinced it's healthier) in this country, and you are susceptible to raids from the boys in blue if suspected of supplying raw milk.

A country that unreasonably bans something as harmless as raw milk is not what I would call a free country.

Rawesome Foods Raided... Again! - YouTube

HSVol said:
Marry more than one woman. :loco:
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Sure. Prostitution should be legal. Drugs. Victimless crimes are not indicative of a free society.
 
#147
#147
nbakerld said:
Give me a break. I live out west. There's a reason why the south's minority population is growing faster than any other region...there's opportunity, the weather's great, and it's not any more racist than the rest of the country.[/
Posted via VolNation Mobile please stop with the common sense some people on here can't handle it.
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#148
#148
sjt18 said:
It is either true and documented or it is not. You don't have to like him. You can hold onto whatever antagonism you have for fundamental Baptists. But truth isn't one bit influenced by your biases.
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Truth? Barton is a hack.....im sorry you dont see his slanted historical view

Now you are reaching out to left field......oe is one evil southern baptists...
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#149
#149
nbakerld said:
I'm kind of dumfounded by this question. I guess some people don't realize how limited our freedom is. You can't buy raw milk (even though people love it and are convinced it's healthier) in this country, and you are susceptible to raids from the boys in blue if suspected of supplying raw milk.

A country that unreasonably bans something as harmless as raw milk is not what I would call a free country.

Rawesome Foods Raided... Again! - YouTube

as bad as bath salts being illegal in va


Sure. Prostitution should be legal. Drugs. Victimless crimes are not indicative of a free society.
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#150
#150
Also, I am now realizing that the milk may be only banned in CA. Not sure.

Either way, there are tons of weird things that are getting banned like caffeinated alcoholic beverages* and fish pedicures.

*How long until they ban bartenders from serving me my favorite Jack and Coke?
 
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