Would you be happy with 6-6 (regular season) in 2013?

[sanddune50]

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The fact that you believe six wins with the roster UT has would be mediocre/a disappointment is crazy.

They have some pieces where I believe 6 wins would be a disappointment. A top 10 O-line with 2 veteran RBs in Lane and Neal. Switching back to the 4-3 with McCullers and Couch on the inside will provide a strong defense against the run. 2 elite LBers in Maggitt and AJ Johnson, and a star in the making at safety in McNeil. There are unknowns at the QB and WR position. CB play and edge rushers will have to be better. But by in large the same defense that was horrible in the 3-4 last year was 27th in the 4-3 the year before under Wilcox. I think scheme played a huge role in last year's defensive struggles. Point is 6-6 would be a letdown. 7-5 is realistic. And 8-9 wins is possible. Good coaching can beat talent, so we will see.

 

[drodvol]

No because we should have never gotten to this point!!:gun:

 

[sjt18]

From Duhvader:

Originally Posted by sjt18
Vandy, UK, AP, WKU, USCe, Auburn, So Alabama, Mizzou.

You're out of your mind.

Wow. That was a real substantative argument you made there. In fact, just about everyone of your responses amounted to a 7 year old's "uh-huh... my daddy is tougher than your daddy".

Unless the recruiting svcs are absolutely, positively bogus... UT has more "talent" than your team.

Do you honestly believe that?

Easily verified math. If you put a little more effort into finding facts, you wouldn't embarrass yourself. Based on the grades of the recruiting svcs, UT has more talent than USCe... and it is not close. Are those ratings perfect? I have always argued they are "generally" accurate but not specifically accurate. On avg they are accurate enough that a roster that avg's 3.4 stars will be better than one that avg's 3.1 stars.

That does not mean they will win... only that the coaches have better raw material to work with.

Your coaches have very little to work with.

Well... let's think about that for a minute. OL will very possibly have all 5 starters drafted next spring. The likely starting QB was a HS All American with velocity good enough to play in the NFL right now. Two RB's return that combined for over 1300 yds last year in a passing O. There is very little experience or production coming back at WR. OTOH, Croom has a TE's body and a WR's speed. UT will have the #2 rated WR in the country from the '13 class on the roster this fall. Others were highly rated as well. There is plenty of talent if these guys can coach for the O to be good.

On D, there is plenty of talent along the DL. There are at least 4 SEC quality guys at DT. DE has sufficient depth and talent. LB is thin but returns the SEC's top tackler (#6 in the nation). Secondary is also a concern... but again if the recruiting svcs aren't blind, deaf, and dumb... there is talent. Randolph (Jr) returns from an ACL after being a Fr AA two years ago.


IF Dooley and his staff could have coached, UT had a team with more than enough talent to compete for the East if not the SEC. Players were lost from that team but it still comes down to coaching. There is NO reason this team should be considered a success at 6 wins.

 

[sjt18]

You have provided nothing "rational".

Says the guy who has yet to dispute any of the FACTS I have pointed to or present a single relevant fact himself... right?

We'll have our answer in a year or two.

And again you spit something up without even taking a superficial look at the reality of the program and while ignoring the facts that have been presented. Jones inherits a team of guys were were highly rated as recruits, have taken their lumps, and are now upper classmen. As of right now, four of the 5 OL starters will be Sr's and the Jr will likely declare for the draft. His most productive returning RB is a Sr (little known by opposing fans but he's also freakishly athletic). All 4 starters and probably 6 or 7 of the top 8 DL's will be Sr's. The LB two deep will have at least 5 Sr/Jr players with at least one of the Jr's likely to leave early for the draft.

Secondary and WR are question marks... but there is talent in both groups. If he cannot get more than 6 wins out of such an experienced group of talented players then what are we going to find out in the next couple of years when he's working with very young rosters?

UT will be an underdog in each of the games you just listed, except maybe Auburn. UT doesn't have a lot of talent on this roster. I don't know what you're seeing that suggests otherwise.

I didn't suggest otherwise though "on paper" UT will be more talented than USCe. I have now explained ad nauseum and challenged you to prove for yourself what UT will have on the roster this fall. If you won't take an honest look then I really don't know what else to do... and have no interest in continuing to repeat the same info to you.

 

[DarthVisor]

From Duhvader:

Considering what you posted below, this is funny.

Wow. That was a real substantative argument you made there. In fact, just about everyone of your responses amounted to a 7 year old's "uh-huh... my daddy is tougher than your daddy".


Winning at Missouri and at home against SC and Auburn is much more likely than winning at Alabama. That's why I was saying you are out of your mind.

Easily verified math. If you put a little more effort into finding facts, you wouldn't embarrass yourself. Based on the grades of the recruiting svcs, UT has more talent than USCe... and it is not close.

I went by Rivals. Maybe you use Scout or 247. However, based on this particular service, I'm not seeing this "easily verified math" that you spoke of.
2013 Rankings: SC 16, UT 21
Five Stars: SC 0, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 8, UT 5
2012 Rankings: SC 19, UT 17
Five Stars: SC 0, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 8, UT 10
2011 Rankings: SC 18, UT 13
Five Stars: SC 1, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 6, UT 12
2010 Rankings: SC 24, UT 9
Five Stars: SC 1, UT 1
Four Stars: SC 5, UT 12


Are those ratings perfect? I have always argued they are "generally" accurate but not specifically accurate. On avg they are accurate enough that a roster that avg's 3.4 stars will be better than one that avg's 3.1 stars.

This depends on who your coach is.

Well... let's think about that for a minute. OL will very possibly have all 5 starters drafted next spring.

Your OL will be outstanding, yet again.

The likely starting QB was a HS All American with velocity good enough to play in the NFL right now.

We'll see.

Two RB's return that combined for over 1300 yds last year in a passing O.

You have good backs, no doubt.

There is very little experience or production coming back at WR.

This is where I think you will experience difficulty.

OTOH, Croom has a TE's body and a WR's speed. UT will have the #2 rated WR in the country from the '13 class on the roster this fall. Others were highly rated as well. There is plenty of talent if these guys can coach for the O to be good.

There's talent, but there's little experience at this positions. That's going to be the issue.

On D, there is plenty of talent along the DL. There are at least 4 SEC quality guys at DT. DE has sufficient depth and talent. LB is thin but returns the SEC's top tackler (#6 in the nation). Secondary is also a concern... but again if the recruiting svcs aren't blind, deaf, and dumb... there is talent. Randolph (Jr) returns from an ACL after being a Fr AA two years ago.

This "talent" yielded the worst defense in the conference last year. I have a hard time believing they will be vastly improved from last year.

IF Dooley and his staff could have coached, UT had a team with more than enough talent to compete for the East if not the SEC. Players were lost from that team but it still comes down to coaching. There is NO reason this team should be considered a success at 6 wins.

The majority of that talent that was carrying you all last year is gone. That's reality. I believe that Jones has the coaching ability to get you to seven, even eight wins. However, it shouldn't be considered a disappointment if he only reaches six wins. He's in his first year with a gutted offense. The only bright spots you have on offense are your backs and your line. Everything else is largely unknown. You're returning the conference's worst defense, too. You're free to believe what you want. I believe that 6-6 shouldn't be considered a disappointment.

.

 

[sjt18]

I went by Rivals. Maybe you use Scout or 247. However, based on this particular service, I'm not seeing this "easily verified math" that you spoke of.
2013 Rankings: SC 16, UT 21
Five Stars: SC 0, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 8, UT 5
2012 Rankings: SC 19, UT 17
Five Stars: SC 0, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 8, UT 10
2011 Rankings: SC 18, UT 13
Five Stars: SC 1, UT 0
Four Stars: SC 6, UT 12
2010 Rankings: SC 24, UT 9
Five Stars: SC 1, UT 1
Four Stars: SC 5, UT 12

Well, let's total that up. UT has gotten 40 4/5* commits during that period while USCe has gotten 28. That is a meaningful difference. Both have lost players early for various reasons.

But then you compare the current projected starters and it reflects something pretty similar I believe. UT projects to have 15 starters that were 4* or better out of 22. USCe's current depth chart on Rivals has 7 starters who were unless I counted wrong.

Very... easily verified math.

 

[sjt18]

This "talent" yielded the worst defense in the conference last year. I have a hard time believing they will be vastly improved from last year.

UT fans would have found it hard to believe that the same VERY young D players plus the studs that were added to them like Couch and McCullers would have gone from mid-pack to last between '11 and '12. BUT.... basically the same personnel with talent upgrades where they lost guys went from allowing 23 ppg to allowing 36 ppg... 340 ypg to 471 ppg. It "accomplished" that against a schedule that was easier with respect to opposing O's. No Petrino Arkansas O... no Oregon O.

This D has more talent and experience than the '11 D.

 

[sjt18]

The majority of that talent that was carrying you all last year is gone. That's reality.

No. It really isn't. ALL of the 2 deep on the OL return. Both of the top two leading rushers return. Of the 22 players that had more than 10 tackles last year 18 return including 11 of the 13 that had more than 25 tackles.

I believe that Jones has the coaching ability to get you to seven, even eight wins. However, it shouldn't be considered a disappointment if he only reaches six wins. He's in his first year with a gutted offense. The only bright spots you have on offense are your backs and your line. Everything else is largely unknown. You're returning the conference's worst defense, too. You're free to believe what you want. I believe that 6-6 shouldn't be considered a disappointment.

If you were a UT fan and were OK with continuing to be a mid-pack team then that might be reasonable. if you are a UT fan who wants to see championship football in K'ville then you expect MORE than what Dooley accomplished in his first year with a schedule just as difficult and a MUCH worse roster.

Even if it weren't a valid expectation which I think it is if he's a good enough coach to get UT back to the top... it would still be necessary for his survival. The roster gets worse next year, not better. If he gets 6 this year then 6 in '14 would be like asking for 9 this year considering the youth he will have. So '15 sets up to be a make or break year... with a roster that will likely be still too young and possibly thin.

 

[Burger]

They have some pieces where I believe 6 wins would be a disappointment. A top 10 O-line with 2 veteran RBs in Lane and Neal. Switching back to the 4-3 with McCullers and Couch on the inside will provide a strong defense against the run. 2 elite LBers in Maggitt and AJ Johnson, and a star in the making at safety in McNeil. There are unknowns at the QB and WR position. CB play and edge rushers will have to be better. But by in large the same defense that was horrible in the 3-4 last year was 27th in the 4-3 the year before under Wilcox. I think scheme played a huge role in last year's defensive struggles. Point is 6-6 would be a letdown. 7-5 is realistic. And 8-9 wins is possible. Good coaching can beat talent, so we will see.

Our team has been coached by a goober the last 3 years. Great coaches couldnt correct all of the crappy coaching Dooley has done in 8 months. 6-6 is what I expect, for 7-5 would be great, and 8-4 would win him SEC coach of the year! We are young and inexperienced
at so many skill positions. With that comes growing pains. My point is that we are trying to play catch up with our conference. Win the expected games, and upsetting a top 25 team is a huge bonus.

 

[DarthVisor]

No. It really isn't.

Uh, yes, it is. No Rivera, Patterson, Hunter, or Bray.

ALL of the 2 deep on the OL return. Both of the top two leading rushers return.

I already acknowledged this.

Of the 22 players that had more than 10 tackles last year 18 return including 11 of the 13 that had more than 25 tackles.

Your defense was 16 or 17 places from dead-last in total defense in the country last year. I'm not sure why you're citing this as strength.

If you were a UT fan and were OK with continuing to be a mid-pack team then that might be reasonable. if you are a UT fan who wants to see championship football in K'ville then you expect MORE than what Dooley accomplished in his first year with a schedule just as difficult and a MUCH worse roster.

So, let me get this straight: If CBJ goes 6-6 in his first season with a gutted roster and a schedule that isn't particularly favorable, then UT should expect mediocrity from him?

Even if it weren't a valid expectation which I think it is if he's a good enough coach to get UT back to the top... it would still be necessary for his survival. The roster gets worse next year, not better. If he gets 6 this year then 6 in '14 would be like asking for 9 this year considering the youth he will have. So '15 sets up to be a make or break year... with a roster that will likely be still too young and possibly thin.

So, what happens if he gets seven or eight and then gets six next year? It just pushes your scenario back a year. He's going to need time, and I believe he will get the time he needs to succeed at UT if he is worth his salt.

Well, let's total that up. UT has gotten 40 4/5* commits during that period while USCe has gotten 28. That is a meaningful difference. Both have lost players early for various reasons.

Those numbers are deceiving. Of the 40 4/5* commits UT has had since the 2010 class, only 24 are actually listed on the roster. It's possible I missed one or two, of course. Of the 28 listed for SC, we only have 22 on the roster. As I was saying, there isn't a meaningful difference in talent.

But then you compare the current projected starters and it reflects something pretty similar I believe. UT projects to have 15 starters that were 4* or better out of 22. USCe's current depth chart on Rivals has 7 starters who were unless I counted wrong.

You may want to double-check your math. It has already damaged your point (whatever that may be) once.

Very... easily verified math.

Except that your math is inaccurate.

UT fans would have found it hard to believe that the same VERY young D players plus the studs that were added to them like Couch and McCullers would have gone from mid-pack to last between '11 and '12. BUT.... basically the same personnel with talent upgrades where they lost guys went from allowing 23 ppg to allowing 36 ppg... 340 ypg to 471 ppg. It "accomplished" that against a schedule that was easier with respect to opposing O's. No Petrino Arkansas O... no Oregon O.

This D has more talent and experience than the '11 D.

Would you care to elaborate on where this talent is at, and who specifically you're referencing that's going to help the defense improve?

 

[sjt18]

Our team has been coached by a goober the last 3 years. Great coaches couldnt correct all of the crappy coaching Dooley has done in 8 months. 6-6 is what I expect, for 7-5 would be great, and 8-4 would win him SEC coach of the year! We are young and inexperienced
at so many skill positions. With that comes growing pains. My point is that we are trying to play catch up with our conference. Win the expected games, and upsetting a top 25 team is a huge bonus.

Depends on whether the problem was S&C and technical coaching or if it was schemes and philosophies and motivation and organization. It appeared to be far more the latter than the former.

But yes... good coaching can very quickly correct bad coaching if the talent is there.

 

[sjt18]

Would you care to elaborate on where this talent is at, and who specifically you're referencing that's going to help the defense improve?

No. I have repeated the same thing over and over. I am not going to type it again. Just go back and re-read it.

As for the argument about Bray/Patterson/Hunter.... you have to believe last year was really a 5-7 talented team. It wasn't. It was a team with the talent to compete for the East if not the SEC. MOST of those talented players return and are set to be starters... with most of them 2 or 3 year starters. They lost statistical production on O. No doubt about it. There are questions as to which if any of the talented guys behind them will step up. There always are when you lost guys like those... or Lattimore... or any of the other SIX guys your team lost to the draft.

I am not saying that I "expect" the Vols to take the East this year. But if Jones is the coach to take UT back to championship level then 6 wins is NOT the mark. Again, Dooley took a MUCH worse roster and did that in his first year against a MORE difficult schedule.

Like it or not, of the 6 stronger opponents on the UT schedule this fall... your team is one of the two weakest.

 

[DarthVisor]

No. I have repeated the same thing over and over. I am not going to type it again. Just go back and re-read it.

I did. I still have yet to find the answer to my question.

As for the argument about Bray/Patterson/Hunter.... you have to believe last year was really a 5-7 talented team. It wasn't.

Please point out where I asserted that it was. Dooley is the reason you all weren't a good team last year.

It was a team with the talent to compete for the East if not the SEC. MOST of those talented players return and are set to be starters... with most of them 2 or 3 year starters.

So, you feel that your offense will be just as potent as it was last year? You all won't miss a beat on offense then?

I am not saying that I "expect" the Vols to take the East this year. But if Jones is the coach to take UT back to championship level then 6 wins is NOT the mark.

That doesn't answer my question, which was this: do you believe that CBJ will be nothing more than a mediocre coach if he only wins six this year? In other words, are you judging what he is to be based on how many games he wins THIS year?

Again, Dooley took a MUCH worse roster and did that in his first year against a MORE difficult schedule.

See above.

Like it or not, of the 6 stronger opponents on the UT schedule this fall... your team is one of the two weakest.

I don't disagree with that at all. It helps that you get us at home, too.

.

 

[sjt18]

I did. I still have yet to find the answer to my question.

Your reading comprehension issues are just not a problem I can fix. I am NOT going to type the same things again only to have you ignore them... again... and claim I have not given you "proof".

If you agree that Dooley screwed up a 10 win team last fall then the player losses do NOT equal a team only capable of beating less talented teams this fall.

I do NOT believe the O will be as potent as last year and especially not in the passing game. It will improve in the run game partly because of scheme and focus and partly out of necessity. They will probably avg about 30 ppg. They will probably allow between 20-24 ppg. That should be enough to get 7 regular season wins.

I DO NOT believe Jones is a championship caliber coach on par with Spurrier, Saban, Miles, Richt, et al if he cannot get more than 6 regular season wins out of this roster. He will have done no more than Dooley did in his first year with a worse roster. That is pretty simple to follow... I think. Like Dooley but to a greater degree, his second year roster will actually be worse than his first year roster. So even if he is a "great" coach... he will still end up needing to yank a miracle season out in '15 to survive.

There is excitement and good will all over right now. More than Dooley 3 years ago... but similar. It will die just as quickly if he cannot beat anyone of significance. Recruiting dies with it.

So whether you or anyone else thinks it "reasonable" for him to win 7+ games this fall (I do), it is none the less NECESSARY to his survival. The one thing that could have mitigated the problem did not occur... and was also not considered reasonable. He needed to finish the '13 class with MORE great players that could be ready in '14 to play big roles. Not his fault at all. Dooley and Company quit on that class some time around the time they lost to you. But it was still one of the ways he could avoid the crunch in '15.

So answer this question if you can. If Jones cannot take the talent and significant experience on this team and win 7 then what is "reasonable" for the next two years? Even if you think he could get it done in 5 years... what are the chances of surviving 3 if he has not produced significant wins?

 

[DarthVisor]

Your reading comprehension issues are just not a problem I can fix. I am NOT going to type the same things again only to have you ignore them... again... and claim I have not given you "proof".

I honestly didn't see it. If you don't have anything to support your stance, though, that's fine.

If you agree that Dooley screwed up a 10 win team last fall then the player losses do NOT equal a team only capable of beating less talented teams this fall.

I definitely agree that UT had potential for a ten-win season, sans the fact that Doofus was at the helm. With that being said, the talent you have isn't going to simply replace the talent you lost. Your defense will likely improve, but I will be surprised if your offense doesn't take a step back. Your offense was the only reason you kept pace with Georgia, Mississippi State, and South Carolina, and it's also the only reason you managed to beat Troy.

I do NOT believe the O will be as potent as last year and especially not in the passing game. It will improve in the run game partly because of scheme and focus and partly out of necessity. They will probably avg about 30 ppg.

Possibly.

They will probably allow between 20-24 ppg.

This sounds reasonable, though it could be higher.

That should be enough to get 7 regular season wins.

I DO NOT believe Jones is a championship caliber coach on par with Spurrier, Saban, Miles, Richt, et al if he cannot get more than 6 regular season wins out of this roster.

Thank you. That's all I wanted to know.

He will have done no more than Dooley did in his first year with a worse roster. That is pretty simple to follow... I think. Like Dooley but to a greater degree, his second year roster will actually be worse than his first year roster.

I don't think he'll be as bad as Dooley. He has a lot of question marks. Unlike Dooley, he actually seems to know what he's doing. He can definitely recruit.

So even if he is a "great" coach... he will still end up needing to yank a miracle season out in '15 to survive.

He'll get more than three years unless he just has a terrible year somewhere between now and then. I don't see it happening.

There is excitement and good will all over right now. More than Dooley 3 years ago... but similar. It will die just as quickly if he cannot beat anyone of significance. Recruiting dies with it.

So whether you or anyone else thinks it "reasonable" for him to win 7+ games this fall (I do), it is none the less NECESSARY to his survival.

That's a matter of opinion. I don't think he has to win seven this year to survive.

The one thing that could have mitigated the problem did not occur... and was also not considered reasonable. He needed to finish the '13 class with MORE great players that could be ready in '14 to play big roles. Not his fault at all. Dooley and Company quit on that class some time around the time they lost to you. But it was still one of the ways he could avoid the crunch in '15.

Valid point.

So answer this question if you can. If Jones cannot take the talent and significant experience on this team and win 7 then what is "reasonable" for the next two years?

That depends on who you ask. My opinion is this: UT is in a rebuilding phase. I think he needs four-five years. I believe that you need to give him a pass of sorts these first couple of years. That is, of course, unless he comes out and loses to someone like UK or it becomes clear that he does not have control of the team.

Even if you think he could get it done in 5 years... what are the chances of surviving 3 if he has not produced significant wins?

I think he'll get someone in these first three years. It might be South Carolina, it might be Georgia, it might be Florida or Alabama. Who knows. I don't think he'll get any of those guys this year, though beating South Carolina at home is very possible.

.

 

[Burger]

Depends on whether the problem was S&C and technical coaching or if it was schemes and philosophies and motivation and organization. It appeared to be far more the latter than the former.

But yes... good coaching can very quickly correct bad coaching if the talent is there.

We've had beyond piss poor head coaching along with terrible technical coaches. You're overestimating great coaches. Molding New wax is easier than molding wax that's already been used. Unlearning bad coaching will take the whole 2013 season. We need to play in December, and that will catch us up along with a lot of early enrollees.

 

[Giveem6]

6-6 no i wont be happy. disgusted might be the word to describe it

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Would Alabama or Georgia fans be happy with a 6-6 record ? (even if it was a 1st season coach)

Alabama went 6-6 in their first year under Saban, including a loss to Louisiana-Monroe.

 

[MFL]

Yes, It's would be a big step in the right direction for the first time in 7 years

 

[Enki_Amenra]

I was listening to a radio show this morning. The show had a guest speaker, former Tennessee Volunteers quarterback, Erik Ainge.

As I listened to his opinion about the state of Vol football under the first year staff of Coach Butch Jones. He gave great insight from an alum and former UT star's point-of-view, comparing the glaring differences between former coach Derek Dooley and Coach Jones.

Hearing of the incredible changes taking place in this new era of Vol football really suprised me, I knew things were not good, but had no idea of just how little Dooley seemed to care. He practiced some things I would never imagine happening in UT's football department.

Then Ainge talked about how Coach Jones has acknowledged the impotence in many areas of the football department. Not only has Jones said he would work tirelessly to return the pride and winning tradition throughout Vol Nation, but he has followed through, doing so with a level of success most fans would have never dreamed of seeing so early in his role as Head Volunteer Football Coach at the University of Tennessee.

Though Jones and his staff are implementing many important changes, kicking open the door that former coach Dooley slammed shut on former Vols and encouraging those past Volunteers to return and share their knowledge with current players, may be the most important single thing he has done so far.

I was very impressed with the comparison Ainge gave, because I didn't know much about the things he talked about. At this point I realized Tennessee could go 4-8 and I wouldn't be in a panic, because I know the path is being paved for tremendous future success.

As far as the question...
-Would I be happy with a 6-6 '13 campaign?

- No

Would I be satisfied?

- No

Would I lobby Coach Jones' firing?

- Absolutely Not

I wouldn't be 'Happy', 'Satisfied', nor 'disappointed'. I think I would best describe what I think I would feel as uncomfortably content, knowing brighter days and bigger wins are on the way.

EDIT TO ADD:

If you're interested in hearing the Erik Ainge Talk Radio Show (if you're any kind of true Vol fan you'll love what Erik has to say and I highly recommend it), here is MIG's (Mortgage Investors Group) Corporate Facebook page:

https://www.facebook.com/MIGCorporate

 

[VOLnMiami]

We are Tennessee...We should NEVER be happy with 6-6....I wouldn't get mad at 6-6 but no not happy with it...I think we can do better and I'll always think that way.

 

[Orangedogsrule]

Alabama went 6-6 in their first year under Saban, including a loss to Louisiana-Monroe.

After being a head coach for 13 years Bear Bryant went 5-4-1 his first year at Bama, and his only year at Bama with a 10 game season was 1958. Previously, in his only year at Maryland (1945) he went 6-2-1, his 1st year at Kentucky (1946) he went 7-3, and his 1st yr at Texas A&M (1954) he went 1-9-0 ... (whew!!!)
Bryant's 2nd yr at Bama was two 2 wins and 1 tie better, two years after that he went 11-0. Took him four years to get there, but then he slid back to losing a game or two each year until 1966 with an 11-0 season. Followed by 8-2-1, 8-3-0, 6-5-0, 6-5-1 seasons.

My point is, no one could reasonably argue Bryant wasn't a good coach, yet none of his 1st years anywhere were stellar. In fact, T A&M fans had to be groaning, and possibly glad for him to be gone after losing the 1957 season Gator Bowl to Tennessee. Good coaches, even great coaches (Fulmer included) have up and down years, and it can take a decade or more to get the right chemistry of school support, assistant coaches, recruiting recognition, etc. to make a 10 year run like he did between 1971 and 1980 when he went 107 won, 13 lost, and 0 ties, for an amazing W/L percentage of 0.892.

It takes time to build a program. In this day and age, I believe only circumstances truly outside a head coach's control allow them to excel in 1 or 2 years. Lucky enough to inherit an already solid program like Fulmer, or Myers at OS (who made the most of it), or go to a school with a rich tradition (USC) after leaving one with a rich tradition (TN) like Kiffin ( who may not be making the most of it). Time, it takes time.

 

[Enki_Amenra]

Alabama went 6-6 in their first year under Saban, including a loss to Louisiana-Monroe.

Thanks for the info, but I'd point out that Alabama's 2007 records wasn't 6-6 (reg sea.) or 7-6 (incl. bowl W).

Alabama Crimson Tide posted a 2007 season record of 2-11* in Saban's 1st season.*

Most 'bammer fans ignore the fact that Saban's inaugural team was caught cheating and forced to vacate the 1st five wins.

They like to keep that little fact securely locked in their closet, hoping it will eventually be completely forgotten.

I suppose you could say Saban's 1st team posted a 2-6 record, if the wins are vacated, but not counted as losses. However, that only illustrates Saban's inability to complete year 1, without cheating, using the team and players he inherited from the previous staff.

2007 Alabama Crimson Tide football team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:

The 2007 Alabama Crimson Tide football team represented the University of Alabama for the 2007 NCAA Division I FBS football season trying to improve from a disappointing 6–7 record in the 2006 season. The Tide was led by its new head coach Nick Saban, a former head coach of rival LSU. Despite a strong 6–2 start, they finished out the season by losing four of their final five games.* The team closed the regular season at 6–6 (4–4, SEC) and lost for a sixth-straight time to rival Auburn.* The Tide defeated Colorado in the 2007 Independence Bowl 30–24 to finish their first season under Nick Saban at a 7–6 (4–4) record, however two years later the first five wins of the season were vacated* as part of a penalty placed against Alabama by the NCAA for infractions committed during the season.*

*My Emphasis Added

 

[VolBuck86]

Heck yeah. Finally breaking even, managing to beat at least one other SEC team aside from Kentucky, and getting some post season action, most definitely. Much as I'd like to see UT in Atlanta and playing for the the NCAA title game, or at least a trip to the Sugar Bowl or Orange Bowl, realistically, this team is still a couple of years from major success yet I fear. It's a step in the right direction, a foundation to build on, and a guarantee to have a bowl game with UT appearing over the holidays.

 

[Boca Vol]

Thanks for the info, but I'd point out that Alabama's 2007 records wasn't 6-6 (reg sea.) or 7-6 (incl. bowl W).

Alabama Crimson Tide posted a 2007 season record of 2-11* in Saban's 1st season.*

Most 'bammer fans ignore the fact that Saban's inaugural team was caught cheating and forced to vacate the 1st five wins.

They like to keep that little fact securely locked in their closet, hoping it will eventually be completely forgotten.

I suppose you could say Saban's 1st team posted a 2-6 record, if the wins are vacated, but not counted as losses. However, that only illustrates Saban's inability to complete year 1, without cheating, using the team and players he inherited from the previous staff.

2007 Alabama Crimson Tide football team - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:




*My Emphasis Added

Most college football fans have also apparently ignored it as well. 7-6 or 2-9 for a program that has won 3 out of the last 4 and was ranked #1 going into the 2008 SEC CG doesn't really matter. Both are below expectations.

UT should feel the same way. 5-7 or 7-5....both suck!