Year Two: win a bowl game or go sit in the hot seat

[gunner]

With the opinion circulating that Butch is overpaid, I think it is time to put down the metric for which Year Two will be judged.

Getting to a bowl game is an absolute minimum. Butch is making big boy dinero and he left wins on the field last year. We can forgive (because look who coached them the year before) but there are six no-brainer wins on our schedule and this team is already more than half his.

With the talent he has brought in, an extra month of practice, and we should absolutely handle any low tier bowl opponent. A 6 - 7 year and I think the heat should be on (and rightly so).

I like Butch, and I like almost everything he has done to date in Orange. At the end of the day though, Ws are the only coin of the realm. I think winning a bowl game is a successful Year Two. *

* (anything above 7-wins and the season is a big success as well, bowl game not included)

I agree losing seven games last year was unacceptable, but expecting a bowl this year with the loss of all the starters on both lines is very unrealistic. It all starts at the line of scrimmage!

Yes, six wins should be the goal with this team, but if they don't get there, you can't really blame Butch, it was the hand that he was dealt just like last year. Butch has signed one full recruiting class, let's see how they fare in the SEC before we start talking coaching change.

 

[UGADawg4Life]

You're wrong on so many levels that your opinion here is a joke!

buTch is NOT overpaid and in fact 9 other SEC coaches earn more than he does so he's on the lower rung of SEC coaches pay.

Next this is really the FIRST real recruiting class of his since last year he only tried to add to what CDD had put together and he added some pretty good players in a very short period of time.

buTches 1st recruiting class are true freshmen and some aren't even up to date on the playbook yet.

Next check our schedule and you'll see it's 1 of the toughest in the country and those that OVERexpect like you're obviously doing ARE part ofthe problem we've been having trying to get good coaches on the hill to rebuild our program the right ways.

Even if nick satan had left alabummer to rebuild our footVol team it would take him 4 years of good recruiting to get us back to the top but you expect buTch to do wonders with his 1st recruiting class, LOL!

I'd suggest you actually learn something about college football, recruiting and what it really takes to rebuild a total program and spend less time on here making yourself look so dumb with posts already calling for more than any coach could do in such a sort timeframe.

I hope for 6 Wins this season but I won't be surprised if we get less than 6 with our brutal schedule.

It's sad how many here on VN are still so totally UNrealistic.

#BrickbyBrick...VFL...GBO!!!

Good post. I know some fans have false bravado this time of year. But to expect a coach to rebuild a program in two seasons in the SEC is very unrealistic. I keep hearing about all of the talent that CBJ has brought in and that should be a reason for winning. When's the last time that a team loaded with freshmen won anything? UT has a brutal schedule this season. 6 wins and a bowl should be the goal this season, not a minimum requirement. Then you'll have something to build on. This is SEC football, not basketball.

 

[Rudy123]

With the opinion circulating that Butch is overpaid, I think it is time to put down the metric for which Year Two will be judged.

Getting to a bowl game is an absolute minimum. Butch is making big boy dinero and he left wins on the field last year. We can forgive (because look who coached them the year before) but there are six no-brainer wins on our schedule and this team is already more than half his.

With the talent he has brought in, an extra month of practice, and we should absolutely handle any low tier bowl opponent. A 6 - 7 year and I think the heat should be on (and rightly so).

I like Butch, and I like almost everything he has done to date in Orange. At the end of the day though, Ws are the only coin of the realm. I think winning a bowl game is a successful Year Two. *

* (anything above 7-wins and the season is a big success as well, bowl game not included)

bUTch will get plenty of time to turn this around.

bUTch knew when he first came here that it would be a 4 or 5 year rebuilding process. He knew that the fans would not likely give him that much time, so he started a campaign to get the fans to love him and support him.

If he were like Dooley and unsuccessful and NOT well liked, then he would have no margin for error; however, if he were unsuccessful at first and WAS well liked, then the fans would give him more time to right the ship.

If he is NOT liked, then he is given maybe 3 seasons until the fans start to grumble. If he IS well liked, then he is given a 4th or 5th season before the fans start to grumble.

 

[BigBadVol]

Who's opinion would that be? The opinion that I read was that of an uninformed hack writer. Most people can write articles nowadays, that does not make them the majority opinion. Especially since he ranks 10th in the SEC.

Couldn't have said it better!:good!:

Now to the op post. Really? Wow! Reaching aren't we?

 

[sjt18]

I agree losing seven games last year was unacceptable, but expecting a bowl this year with the loss of all the starters on both lines is very unrealistic. It all starts at the line of scrimmage!

So none of UT's opponents lost critical starters? Say Mizzou or Vandy?

Yes, six wins should be the goal with this team, but if they don't get there, you can't really blame Butch, it was the hand that he was dealt just like last year. Butch has signed one full recruiting class, let's see how they fare in the SEC before we start talking coaching change.

Yes. You can blame Jones. He's the coach. He's had two full classes and two full years to develop the team he was left. Blame him for not winning the East? Absolutely not. Blame him for not beating the teams on his schedule with less talent? Absolutely.

It is amazing as someone yesterday spoke about. Many have lowered the bar to the point that failure is "acceptable" and what should be the minimum is treated like a miracle. Great coaches win when they don't have ideal talent and when they play difficult opponents.

Jones may or may not be great. UT however NEEDS a great, not good, coach.

 

[Cartervol]

You won't here many judgement calls on Butch til late in year 3. If he's still stuck in neutral then year 4 will be put up or shut up time..

 

[GlockVol]

Only thing that hasn't improved since CBJ took over is the intelligence of the fanbase. Can lead a horse to water but .................

 

[sjt18]

Good post. I know some fans have false bravado this time of year. But to expect a coach to rebuild a program in two seasons in the SEC is very unrealistic. I keep hearing about all of the talent that CBJ has brought in and that should be a reason for winning. When's the last time that a team loaded with freshmen won anything? UT has a brutal schedule this season. 6 wins and a bowl should be the goal this season, not a minimum requirement. Then you'll have something to build on. This is SEC football, not basketball.

A losing record again this fall will hurt recruiting. Even if you are right... you are still wrong. Recruits don't really care why you haven't had a winning season in 6 years or why the "new" HC has just had a 2nd losing season in his first two. They want to win and be given elite coaching that gives them their best shot at the NFL.

 

[sjt18]

Only thing that hasn't improved since CBJ took over is the intelligence of the fanbase. Can lead a horse to water but .................

The only thing? Hardly. But the sophistication of denials and excuse making have definitely improved.

 

[Boca Vol]

I agree losing seven games last year was unacceptable, but expecting a bowl this year with the loss of all the starters on both lines is very unrealistic. It all starts at the line of scrimmage!

Yes, six wins should be the goal with this team, but if they don't get there, you can't really blame Butch, it was the hand that he was dealt just like last year. Butch has signed one full recruiting class, let's see how they fare in the SEC before we start talking coaching change.

If you truly believe this then UT should simply forfeit each game and say, "See you in 2015!"

If any of the so-called "nega-vols" on here said this they would be ripped apart. But adding the "look at what he inherited" clause somehow makes it acceptable? No way!

Going 6-6 with these 6 wins should be expected and it's not impressive but it will have to do:

USU
Ark St
UTC
UK
Vandy
Mizzou

All but Vandy are at home!

 

[tennesseecoyote]

Well we lost almost all our linemen, still don't have a decent quarterback, and a very young defense. So, although we may not be able to either run or pass the ball, or stop other teams in the otherwise insane SEC, but yes I expect 8 wins this year. Bowl win or nada Butch!!

just kidding... this may be a very tough year on the team. I would be happy with six wins, won't be too disappointed with less. If Woorley and Dobbs couldn't get a feel for the game with a great O-line, how are they gonna work with this new one. Same with defensive pressure, even kicking.

So well... I think I expect... improvement. Especially by our defense. Let's see if we are really starting to pound folks. Is it possible our safeties and LB's can be better positioned to not give up huge plays every third series? How about our offense, does it seem to have some gel? I couldn't really figure it out last year. Can we start breaking these big plays Butch mentions so often?

I will judge not by wins or recruiting, but by something less tangible. I may not be able to fully describe it, yet I recognize that I will know it when I see it or not.

 

[SolidRockGolf]

Impatience and over expectations has brought our fanbase here. Where you ask? Tons of transfers over the years, debt, losing records, young roster, missing bowl games, and laughed at by other fans.

Why? Because our fanbase expects the best every year or you should be fired. Nothing but the best. If a guy drops the ball, its the coaches fault.... lets fire him. If he recruits talent that turns out to be a bust and costs us a year. Lets run him in the ground and then lets fire him.... etc

I'm all for Butch, and I was ready for Fulmer to go as well as Dooley. I like both of them as former coaches but saying that Butch needs to be put on the hot seat is just stupid. But we do have some pretty immature, impatience, whiny fans.... so why not!

Fire Butch now. Put new coach on hot seat immediately... Why because we are Tennessee!!! Sheesh

 

[james_govols]

"I'm saddened by this thread."

 

[DC Vol]

If you truly believe this then UT should simply forfeit each game and say, "See you in 2015!"

If any of the so-called "nega-vols" on here said this they would be ripped apart. But adding the "look at what he inherited" clause somehow makes it acceptable? No way!

Going 6-6 with these 6 wins should be expected and it's not impressive but it will have to do:

USU
Ark St
UTC
UK
Vandy
Mizzou

All but Vandy are at home!

Those 6 and no blow-out losses and I'm the fattest and happiest I've been since 2007 as a UT fan. And I think those 6 are winnable plus Florida. Of course, I've been saying Florida was winnable since 2012 and we know how that has ended.

I'm probably heads in the clouds but with the inordinate amount of depth UT has injected itself with this year, that should shore up a lot of problems for our starters. Plus we get Maggitt back which is a huge plus. Overall, I honestly think our team has improved in terms of starters over last year and our depth is 5x better.

I think 7-5 is possible, though not expected. I do think a bowl game is a must though.

 

[daj2576]

Hmm. That's interesting. I never really thought that the men here were that "woman-like".


Honestly, an in person conversation with me would be pretty different from something here. I imagine most of us are like that. You can't express folded arms or open palms on a chat board. I don't mind arguing. It takes good reason and a good opponent to change my mind. But not many find me very difficult to get along with.

You say that it takes both good reason and a good opponent to change your mind. Why do you require a respect in an opponent to be swayed from a position of poor reasoning to better? That, for anyone seeking information instead of assimilation/affirmation, is a fatal flaw.

C'est la vie.

 

[champyvol]

Should have fired Dooley after 2011?! You people put way too much stock in the UK game! Yes, UT could have won and gone to a crap bowl game. As Bray said, "big deal."

Fact is Hunter was lost on the 1st series of the UF game and Bray was gone soon after. Prior to that the team looked pretty good including stomping a mud hole in Butch's UC team.

I'm sure you gave Butch a pass for the injuries last year but you won't do the same for Dooley?

I'm not a Dooley supporter but fair is fair.

anybody with much a brain knew dooley was garbage. this is basically what is wrong with UT right now. we are excuse university. we think of reasons why we don't or won't win.

 

[daj2576]

A losing record again this fall will hurt recruiting. Even if you are right... you are still wrong. Recruits don't really care why you haven't had a winning season in 6 years or why the "new" HC has just had a 2nd losing season in his first two. They want to win and be given elite coaching that gives them their best shot at the NFL.

How much does it hurt recruiting, if at all, to have fans setting arbitrary bench marks, being pissed when they aren't met, then venting loudly on every form of media that their expectations aren't met and the coach should be on the hot seat, or fired?

 

[champyvol]

i also am on record as saying that i love jones recruiting and intensity. his coaching is still skeptical to me though. there were at least 3 games where he made terrible play calls that hurt us bad. could have been because of depth or maybe just didn't have faith in the players. who knows. i don't give him any excuses this year. i think he would agree going 5-7 is not going to cut it anywhere in the SEC.

 

[sjt18]

Well we lost almost all our linemen, still don't have a decent quarterback, and a very young defense. So, although we may not be able to either run or pass the ball, or stop other teams in the otherwise insane SEC, but yes I expect 8 wins this year. Bowl win or nada Butch!!

just kidding... this may be a very tough year on the team. I would be happy with six wins, won't be too disappointed with less. If Woorley and Dobbs couldn't get a feel for the game with a great O-line, how are they gonna work with this new one. Same with defensive pressure, even kicking.

So well... I think I expect... improvement. Especially by our defense. Let's see if we are really starting to pound folks. Is it possible our safeties and LB's can be better positioned to not give up huge plays every third series? How about our offense, does it seem to have some gel? I couldn't really figure it out last year. Can we start breaking these big plays Butch mentions so often?

I will judge not by wins or recruiting, but by something less tangible. I may not be able to fully describe it, yet I recognize that I will know it when I see it or not.

:lolabove:

Last fall, the excuse for many was that UT's OL/DL wasn't as good as advertised/ranked... and overall there was "no talent". Now those guys get replaced... and the excuse is that UT lost them.

UT won't be young in the back 7 on D this fall. All four of last year's starters in the secondary return. If you count Maggitt as you should then 2 of 3 LB's return.

UT won't be young on the OL either. They have several players with 2-3 years at UT.

 

[sjt18]

How much does it hurt recruiting, if at all, to have fans setting arbitrary bench marks, being pissed when they aren't met, then venting loudly on every form of media that their expectations aren't met and the coach should be on the hot seat, or fired?

I have used this very argument first to oppose critics of Fulmer and then to oppose critics of Dooley. I was wrong too. I still try to be respectful in criticism... but having high expectations or stating the obvious isn't what does harm. The poor performance that invites criticism is what will cost UT recruits.

The bench marks aren't "arbitrary" as much as you think. Losing records at a school with the resources, traditions, and fans that UT has... are failures regardless of the reasons. You can't judge a guy on one or two failures... but you can't tolerate a lack of tangible improvement either.

No recruit needs me to tell them that. No recruit needs me to plant doubt in their minds if performance does not improve this fall. If they don't see it themselves, rival recruiters will make sure they don't miss it. And what exactly have I said other than UT should have high standards for its HC? Do you really think that notion will scare off a recruit... that a fanbase is intent on having an elite coach? Do you not think they have high standards for the coach they'll commit to?

 

[daj2576]

I have used this very argument first to oppose critics of Fulmer and then to oppose critics of Dooley. I was wrong too. I still try to be respectful in criticism... but having high expectations or stating the obvious isn't what does harm. The poor performance that invites criticism is what will cost UT recruits.

The bench marks aren't "arbitrary" as much as you think. Losing records at a school with the resources, traditions, and fans that UT has... are failures regardless of the reasons. You can't judge a guy on one or two failures... but you can't tolerate a lack of tangible improvement either.

No recruit needs me to tell them that. No recruit needs me to plant doubt in their minds if performance does not improve this fall. If they don't see it themselves, rival recruiters will make sure they don't miss it. And what exactly have I said other than UT should have high standards for its HC? Do you really think that notion will scare off a recruit... that a fanbase is intent on having an elite coach? Do you not think they have high standards for the coach they'll commit to?

As to the first highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

How did Florida do recruiting after last years 4-8 season? Surely that wasn't acceptable and invited criticism, right?

To answer the question, they fell from number 4 on rivals in 2013 to number 8 in 2014. Granted that is a small sample size, but it tends to suggest that your direct causative link isn't as strong as you want to believe.

As to the second highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

Fan perception is largely black and white. Fans want "tangibles". More than anything fans want wins. Fans get upset, make a lot of noise, and changes happen.

What recruits want, and what fans want isn't necessarily dissimilar. But, a recruits decision is far more complex. Fans just want wins, recruits have to decide on factors that certainly include location, education, coaching staff, facilities, exposure, pipeline to NFL, and recent success.

While I can't quantify it directly, I can assure you that at some level, fan dissatisfaction plays into their decision process. They (the recruits) can see a coach and a team and a school that feels like home, they can sit with the coaches and see improvement on the field that fans can't see, they can see a system that is being put into place, that we can't see...and couldn't that all be destroyed when other coaches sit with them and say "yeah, but UT's fans are already calling for his head, he won't be at UT by the time you are a junior (thus none of what you feel is good there matters), come play for us.

Even if that only factors at a marginal level, surely you can agree it still factors. And if it does factor, is your desire to air your expectation, arbitrary or not, worth it?

Those are questions you have to answer yourself, during the summer between season 1 and season 2 of the Butch Jones project, as you are apparently already trying to seed your discontent. Let it play out. Surely there is no rational expectation of hot seat talk between the first and second season, but that is ultimately what you have been talking about since roughly the Missouri loss last year.

 

[CountVolcula]

If we don't get a bowl game, then there are serious issues and its not about the players

 

[sechamp2012]

I don't care what the folks in Vegas think. Guess I will have to agree to disagree with some here on that.

I think sjt has it right, if we don't make a bowl game this year it will be a set back in recruiting. That is everything for this program right now and without that, we don't move forward.

CBJ has to get it done this season, JMO.

Everyone that thinks UT goes Bowling should go to Vegas and put 10 Grand on OVER 4.5. Which is just 5 wins so you could win your bet and still get the coach on a hot seat. Double up.

 

[steelejacs]

I just wanna hack

 

[MWAVolfan]

As to the first highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

How did Florida do recruiting after last years 4-8 season? Surely that wasn't acceptable and invited criticism, right?

To answer the question, they fell from number 4 on rivals in 2013 to number 8 in 2014. Granted that is a small sample size, but it tends to suggest that your direct causative link isn't as strong as you want to believe.

As to the second highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

Fan perception is largely black and white. Fans want "tangibles". More than anything fans want wins. Fans get upset, make a lot of noise, and changes happen.

What recruits want, and what fans want isn't necessarily dissimilar. But, a recruits decision is far more complex. Fans just want wins, recruits have to decide on factors that certainly include location, education, coaching staff, facilities, exposure, pipeline to NFL, and recent success.

While I can't quantify it directly, I can assure you that at some level, fan dissatisfaction plays into their decision process. They (the recruits) can see a coach and a team and a school that feels like home, they can sit with the coaches and see improvement on the field that fans can't see, they can see a system that is being put into place, that we can't see...and couldn't that all be destroyed when other coaches sit with them and say "yeah, but UT's fans are already calling for his head, he won't be at UT by the time you are a junior (thus none of what you feel is good there matters), come play for us.

Even if that only factors at a marginal level, surely you can agree it still factors. And if it does factor, is your desire to air your expectation, arbitrary or not, worth it?

Those are questions you have to answer yourself, during the summer between season 1 and season 2 of the Butch Jones project, as you are apparently already trying to seed your discontent. Let it play out. Surely there is no rational expectation of hot seat talk between the first and second season, but that is ultimately what you have been talking about since roughly the Missouri loss last year.

Just too early to tell about Jones. You cant hot seat him yet. However, I dont believe there is some magical number of seasons that you have to complete before you are officially on the hot seat.

Even if the caliber of talent and/or experience on the field currently isnt enough to translate into SEC wins, you can still look at things the coach does and evaluate the decisions he makes to determine very early on if he can cut it or not.

For most rational fans, it didnt take 3 seasons to learn that having Dooley as a head coach was akin to letting a five year old drive a tank. All the losing didnt help his cause, but the real reason he was let go was HOW he lost. His game time decisions, his handling of the media, the fans, the recruits, his relationships with local Tennessee highschool coaches, the coaches he brought in to run the offense and defense.

Some of the most embarrasing moments as a UT fan for me came during Dooley's tenure. I didnt expect them to win a bunch, but I didnt expect some of the ridiculous embarrassments either.

It may take a little more time for Jones to win a lot of games, but if he can make something out of the talent he's bringing in and prove that he's not a bafoon on the sidelines, I'd say let's let the man coach. The talent is continuing to come back to UT, mainly in my opinion because the players are noticing the type of coach we have. You can all see that in how Jones continue to "clean house" with the remaining Derek Dooley recruits. I love that Jones told Ferguson to pound sand. Even if it costs us a loss or two because Worley is a bumbling idiot. Its better for the program because the better caliber players know that Jones is expecting top level effort on the field and off. Sooner or later this will pay off for Tennessee. If Jones can continue to recruit well and not be an idiot on the sidelines, it will be better.