Year Two: win a bowl game or go sit in the hot seat

#276
#276
All I need to know, despite last year's season on a macro scale, is that in his first year Butch just hauled in one of the most prized, talented recruiting classes in the country DESPITE consecutive losing seasons, he seems to be on his way to doing it again, and beat a team no one thought we would and saved us from a historically bad season. (in before it wasn't Jones it was *insert player*, he's still our coach)
 
#277
#277
RetardedElf said:
I think it also says something about the economy not being what it once was and every game but one is now on cable TV
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true can't argue that. i still think the fans would show though if the product on the field was worthy. i can honestly say the product is what has been keeping me away.
 
#281
#281
It feels absolutely alien to be "hoping" for a 6-6 season. That is what Vandy and KY fans do. That is their realm, they own that joint but it looks like they have new neighbors.

It is really disgusting how far UT has fallen. Hope Butch is the one to right this ship.
 
#283
#283
sjt18 said:
But it didn't start like that altogether. He limited the media but so has Jones. Jones may have cost UT a win vs UF last fall by starting Peterman. The Vandy game certainly wasn't well coached. Dooley was condemned for his team not showing up for the 2nd half vs Bama and Oregon in year 1. Both were close at the half... Jones' team didn't show up at all. In spite of your criticisms of Dooley, his undermanned team in that first season kind of played how you would expect an undermanned team to play. They schemed to keep them in it for a half but then depth and inexperience left them unable to adjust and keep competing.

I'm not sure that Wilcox and Chaney weren't better assistants that Bajakian and Jancek, are you? I am certain I'd take Wilcox back.

I think one of the big problems I have with many folks here right now is that they compare Dooley and Jones and either claim that Jones is no worse or is marginally better. Is that really what we should be looking for? Just a little better than Dooley?

Dooley's first year regular season schedule maybe included another winnable SEC game. Maybe if he played Mizzou that year instead of Ole Miss... he goes 5-7 or if the opposite and Jones had another easier opponent. But all that proves is that they were roughly equal in their first years. Again, how can that possibly be considered "good"?
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Dooley had a better team in 2010 that what Jones had last year. Not tons better, but better. Dooley's biggest issue was dealing with the trash players that Kiffin brought to UT (trash in the sense of their personalities, not their talent). Dooley was terrible at providing leadership to his team. You would be far fetched to find more embarrassing incidences of teams completely quitting on their coach like Bray and the Vols did in 2011 and 2012. In 2010 we had serious talent and no depth. In 2013 we had no talent really to speak of and the players that were hailed by the media didnt live up to the hype even a little bit.

Dooley had Bray, Hunter and Rodgers. Even though I really didnt like Bray or Rodgers personally (part of the cancer brought by Kiffin), I still take those three plus CP later on over anybody that CBJ had to work with on offense last year.

Jones biggest issue in year one was dealing with the trash that Dooley left him (trash in the sense of talent, not personalities). It is awful tough to do well in your first year in the SEC, especially with that schedule that he had. But I really believe Jones would have done better with Dooley's first year team and he certainly would have filled the recruiting pipeline with quality players.

I'm still not completely sold on Jones, but he's definitely given me more to think about that Dooley. I'm pretty sure that Jones isnt going to go down in history widely regarded as one of the worst college football coaches of all time the way Dooley did. There were many times last year when Jones frustrated me, but the way he delivered on the recruiting trail and the way he keeps cycling out these Dooley players makes me feel good about the future. Jones still has plenty of time to screw that op for me, but for now nobody can put him on a "hot seat".
 
#284
#284
f77f00 said:
It feels absolutely alien to be "hoping" for a 6-6 season. That is what Vandy and KY fans do. That is their realm, they own that joint but it looks like they have new neighbors.

It is really disgusting how far UT has fallen. Hope Butch is the one to right this ship.
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Why does it still make you feel alien? Tennessee hasnt finished with better than a 6-6 regular season record since 2007.
 
#285
#285
Players make the coach and Jones is reeling in players. He will not be on the hot seat with or without a bowl win. He just needs to avoid a UK type loss or a loss to one of OOC scrubs. A UF win would be big for him and the program.
 
#287
#287
Progress in year 2 determines if the seat warms up in year 3. I like what Butch has done but there are still concerns before we crown him. He was impressive with his approach and coaching in the USCe and UGA games, however the UF and Vandy games stick out like a sore thumb. Recruiting is off the charts, but if QB is such an issue why didn't he go after a juco guy or transfer? He "won" 2 Big East championships but never coached in a BCS bowl. He has good chemistry with his staff but Jancek looked lost last year. I think he's the guy, but I still have my suspicions
 
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#289
#289
MWAVolfan said:
Why does it still make you feel alien? Tennessee hasnt finished with better than a 6-6 regular season record since 2007.
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Have been a fan for a lot longer than 2007. This is not the TN football many of us grew up with. Hoping for 6-6 sucks.
 
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#290
#290
MWAVolfan said:
Dooley had a better team in 2010 that what Jones had last year.
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Show me how. QB? No. Not to start with. RB? No. OL? No. TE? Push. WR? '10 was better but remember that Jones got rid of the guy who might could have played the part of G Jones (Dallas). DL? No. LB? Push. DB? Possibly a tad better but not much. ST's? No.

Not tons better, but better. Dooley's biggest issue was dealing with the trash players that Kiffin brought to UT (trash in the sense of their personalities, not their talent).
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I don't like Kiffin but if you can't blame Jones for the '13 class ( and you can't) then you can't blame Kiffin for the 09 class. That was mainly the last major recruiting failure of Fulmer.

Dooley was terrible at providing leadership to his team.
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I think you make some valid criticisms of Dooley. But again, saying Dooley is terrible then saying Jones is "great" in spite of similar performances in similar situations... is a little inconsistent isn't it?

Jones biggest issue in year one was dealing with the trash that Dooley left him (trash in the sense of talent, not personalities). It is awful tough to do well in your first year in the SEC, especially with that schedule that he had. But I really believe Jones would have done better with Dooley's first year team and he certainly would have filled the recruiting pipeline with quality players.
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You may believe that but those were pretty different situations. Jones was helped tremendously by legacies in the '14 class. Dooley didn't have that. To Jones great credit, he seems to be using the '14 momentum to get some good guys in '15. That is not something DD managed to do after the '10 class which was a good one.

If I am right then Jones would not have done better with that first DD team. It is my hope that Jones had a short term plan and long term plan going into last season AND that he made short term sacrifices for longer term gains.

I'm still not completely sold on Jones, but he's definitely given me more to think about that Dooley.
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That's pretty fair.

I'm pretty sure that Jones isnt going to go down in history widely regarded as one of the worst college football coaches of all time the way Dooley did.
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That truly is a pity. Dooley under better circumstances might have been a mediocre coach. He was no match for what he faced. Jones seems to be holding up in many ways so far... but like you said, I still am not completely sold. I need to see the results on the field that I believe he NEEDS to keep recruiting well. His coaching NOW has to show up to support his recruiting.

There were many times last year when Jones frustrated me, but the way he delivered on the recruiting trail and the way he keeps cycling out these Dooley players makes me feel good about the future. Jones still has plenty of time to screw that op for me, but for now nobody can put him on a "hot seat".
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I don't particularly care to see players cycled out. I have unfortunately had to fire several people in the last 3 years. But we tried to get them to change first.

I agree that "for now" he should not be on a hot seat. If he posts another 5-7 season then it becomes a completely different matter.
 
#291
#291
gunner said:
UT is the only team in the nation to lose all starters on both lines of scrimmage, no other team in the SEC or nation is losing that much experience at the line of scrimmage, if you can't wrap your mind around the impact of that losing that much experience, just wait until UT goes up against the Bama or UF defensive line this fall. It will soon become readily apparent.
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What exactly does UT pay its coaches to do? If UT enters the '14 without an OL prepared to play... then that is coaching. Two years should be enough time to have guys ready to play as a unit even without extensive game experience. The DL is a tougher situation because they don't have as many players with longevity. I am concerned about how that will look though I like Stripling probably the best of any coach who came with Jones.

UT may be the only team to lose their line starters. They aren't the only team to lose LOTS of starters. Again, reference Mizzou and others. The way they actually performed as a unit... I think I would rather lose what UT lost than what Mizzou lost. They lost QB, best RB, top 3 WR's including DGB, and their best two OL's.
 
#292
#292
BTW, losing starters does not mean that no one with extensive PT returns. Saulsberry (assuming) was playing the best of any UT DT when injured. O'Brien has played alot. Vereen played alot. Maggitt is excellent. Williams has played a ton. LaTroy Lewis played.

That isn't what you "want".... but it isn't a guaranteed disaster either.
 
#293
#293
Volview said:
...but getting a new coach would hurt recruiting or even putting a coach on the hot seat without a fair amount of time would hurt recruiting as well.
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Two years is a "fair" amount of time to get to the point where you beat the teams on your schedule with less talent. There are six of them this fall.

Getting a new coach doesn't necessarily hurt recruiting. It depends on timing and the effort of the outgoing coach. Fulmer hurt Kiffin. Dooley really hurt Jones. Kiffin REALLY helped Dooley.

"Why would you sign with Tennessee? Their coach will be gone before you even play a down. Come play for me, I will be able to develop your skills for the next four years and help you reach the NFL."
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That is all predicated on the failure of your coach to prove he can coach. I'm sorry but if the on-the-field results this fall do not improve over last fall... then the argument to recruits is WAY too easy regardless of whether Jones is considered to be in trouble or not. He lost 7 games last year and 4 weren't competitive. If something similar happens this fall then the modified version of your quote goes like this, "Why would you sign with Tennessee? Their coach can't coach. He gets beaten and blown out. The only way he isn't gone in a year or two is if their admin is stupid. Come play for me, I will be able to develop your skills for the next four years and help you reach the NFL."
 
#294
#294
sjt18 said:
Show me how. QB? No. Not to start with. RB? No. OL? No. TE? Push. WR? '10 was better but remember that Jones got rid of the guy who might could have played the part of G Jones (Dallas). DL? No. LB? Push. DB? Possibly a tad better but not much. ST's? No.

I don't like Kiffin but if you can't blame Jones for the '13 class ( and you can't) then you can't blame Kiffin for the 09 class. That was mainly the last major recruiting failure of Fulmer.

I think you make some valid criticisms of Dooley. But again, saying Dooley is terrible then saying Jones is "great" in spite of similar performances in similar situations... is a little inconsistent isn't it?

You may believe that but those were pretty different situations. Jones was helped tremendously by legacies in the '14 class. Dooley didn't have that. To Jones great credit, he seems to be using the '14 momentum to get some good guys in '15. That is not something DD managed to do after the '10 class which was a good one.

If I am right then Jones would not have done better with that first DD team. It is my hope that Jones had a short term plan and long term plan going into last season AND that he made short term sacrifices for longer term gains.

That's pretty fair.

That truly is a pity. Dooley under better circumstances might have been a mediocre coach. He was no match for what he faced. Jones seems to be holding up in many ways so far... but like you said, I still am not completely sold. I need to see the results on the field that I believe he NEEDS to keep recruiting well. His coaching NOW has to show up to support his recruiting.



I don't particularly care to see players cycled out. I have unfortunately had to fire several people in the last 3 years. But we tried to get them to change first.

I agree that "for now" he should not be on a hot seat. If he posts another 5-7 season then it becomes a completely different matter.
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No one was calling for Dooley's head after year one. No one was setting high expectations for Dooley in 2011. There was hope because of Bray and the receivers but we knew we would be young. Dooley even had a majority in his corner after the UK game. That is when the problems began. The expectations were higher in 2012 when the talent matured and a schedule that had basically eight wins baked into it. Butch's seat will not be lukewarm if he doesn't win a bowl game. It would be good for him and the young team to go to a bowl game in order to get the extra practice and experience.
 
#295
#295
I truly feel sorry for some of you guys.. not going to name people but you know who you are.. you have such a dim and pessimistic view about everything that it truly makes me feel sorry for you. I do not know what has happened in your life to make you feel so down about everything but I am here for you. If you need a shoulder to cry on just send me a PM and I will be happy to try and help you through some of that darkness that surrounds you. Your view on life has a lot to do with what you get out of it, and if you just tried to look a little brighter about some things, it could turn things around for you a great deal.. If you do not want to talk with me, I definitely suggest listening to some of the free podcasts of Inky Johnsons Inkspirations he does everyday at 5pm. I know they help me a great deal, maybe they can do something for you also.

Even if we argue sometimes, I still love all of my vol brothers and sisters and wish you the best. Come back to the light side of the force, it is much better over here.
 
#296
#296
ImportedVoL said:
I truly feel sorry for some of you guys.. not going to name people but you know who you are.. you have such a dim and pessimistic view about everything that it truly makes me feel sorry for you. I do not know what has happened in your life to make you feel so down about everything but I am here for you. If you need a shoulder to cry on just send me a PM and I will be happy to try and help you through some of that darkness that surrounds you. Your view on life has a lot to do with what you get out of it, and if you just tried to look a little brighter about some things, it could turn things around for you a great deal.. If you do not want to talk with me, I definitely suggest listening to some of the free podcasts of Inky Johnsons Inkspirations he does everyday at 5pm. I know they help me a great deal, maybe they can do something for you also.

Even if we argue sometimes, I still love all of my vol brothers and sisters and wish you the best. Come back to the light side of the force, it is much better over here.
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Well now......aren't you the president of The Optimist Club?
 
#297
#297
sjt18 said:
I don't like Kiffin but if you can't blame Jones for the '13 class ( and you can't) then you can't blame Kiffin for the 09 class. That was mainly the last major recruiting failure of Fulmer.
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This is horse****e.

You can actually make a lot of sense, sjt, then you throw it in the garbage with an irrational hatred of Fulmer. An irrational hatred that not even SGM tries to defend anymore because it just can't be defended except by the clinically insane. It's been six damn years!

Tajh Boyd, Bryce Petty, a Top Ten class that actually addressed needs.

GTFO. The Kiffin class is universally regarded as the biggest bust in NCAA history. He is an EPIC FAIL and you seem committed and intent on making sure you do a swan dive into the Kiffin cesspool.
 
#298
#298
zidanefan said:
fyp...
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People should track back and read the original post. If you aren't a fan of Game of Thrones, you should pick up Season 1 box set and get hooked. You still have time to watch it all before the grand finale in two weeks.

I like everything Jones has done so far (except starting Peterman and losing to Vandy). Let's hope he's Fulmer 2, Electric Boogaloo.
 
#299
#299
By god, if fans are going to support CPF(PROVEN) being pushed out for getting in a slump.......then they better damn expect CBJ to get to bowl game....or its the hot seat.. If we are going to oust CPF/Chavis after all those dominate wins......how can the same fan make excuses for not going to bowl in year 2???
Bring on the excuses......alot of teams overcome youth/schedule/rebuilding every year.....and make it to bowl game or better or more Karma it seems. Go Vols...but there has to be improvement.
 
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#300
#300
GrowVol said:
By god, if fans are going to support CPF(PROVEN) being pushed out for getting in a slump.......then they better damn expect CBJ to get to bowl game....or its the hot seat.. If we are going to oust CPF/Chavis after all those dominate wins......how can the same fan make excuses for not going to bowl in year 2???
Bring on the excuses......alot of teams overcome youth/schedule/rebuilding every year.....and make it to bowl game or better or more Karma it seems. Go Vols...but there has to be improvement.
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Apples and oranges

Fulmer didn't rebuild anything...he took a perennial top 10 program and elevated to a top 5 and national championship program followed by 10 yrs of mostly top 10 program.

Butch's job is much closer to Johnny's rebuild after Battle...and tougher IMO than Phil's
 
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