Year Two: win a bowl game or go sit in the hot seat

[1972 Grad]

Just too early to tell about Jones. You cant hot seat him yet. However, I dont believe there is some magical number of seasons that you have to complete before you are officially on the hot seat.

Even if the caliber of talent and/or experience on the field currently isnt enough to translate into SEC wins, you can still look at things the coach does and evaluate the decisions he makes to determine very early on if he can cut it or not.

For most rational fans, it didnt take 3 seasons to learn that having Dooley as a head coach was akin to letting a five year old drive a tank. All the losing didnt help his cause, but the real reason he was let go was HOW he lost. His game time decisions, his handling of the media, the fans, the recruits, his relationships with local Tennessee highschool coaches, the coaches he brought in to run the offense and defense.

Some of the most embarrasing moments as a UT fan for me came during Dooley's tenure. I didnt expect them to win a bunch, but I didnt expect some of the ridiculous embarrassments either.

It may take a little more time for Jones to win a lot of games, but if he can make something out of the talent he's bringing in and prove that he's not a bafoon on the sidelines, I'd say let's let the man coach. The talent is continuing to come back to UT, mainly in my opinion because the players are noticing the type of coach we have. You can all see that in how Jones continue to "clean house" with the remaining Derek Dooley recruits. I love that Jones told Ferguson to pound sand. Even if it costs us a loss or two because Worley is a bumbling idiot. Its better for the program because the better caliber players know that Jones is expecting top level effort on the field and off. Sooner or later this will pay off for Tennessee. If Jones can continue to recruit well and not be an idiot on the sidelines, it will be better.

What gives a so called fan the right to call Worley a "bumbling idiot?" I would be ashamed to be an adult, and stoop to your level.

 

[MWAVolfan]

What gives a so called fan the right to call Worley a "bumbling idiot?" I would be ashamed to be an adult, and stoop to your level.

Sorry for distracting you with loud language. Worley is not a bumbling idiot.

Now regain your composure and please focus on the main theme of my post, of which my criticism of Worley is an insignificant portion.

 

[sjt18]

As to the first highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

How did Florida do recruiting after last years 4-8 season? Surely that wasn't acceptable and invited criticism, right?

You know that's apples to oranges. UF gets recruits because of their strong instate ties. Those recruits also KNOW that Muschamp will be replaced by a better coach... and don't care.

As to the second highlighted, I don't think it is as simple as you want to believe, and that is my point.

Fan perception is largely black and white. Fans want "tangibles". More than anything fans want wins. Fans get upset, make a lot of noise, and changes happen.

What recruits want, and what fans want isn't necessarily dissimilar. But, a recruits decision is far more complex. Fans just want wins, recruits have to decide on factors that certainly include location, education, coaching staff, facilities, exposure, pipeline to NFL, and recent success.

You. The stats guy... are really trying to argue that winning teams and teams with coaches perceived as elite don't get the better recruits? You're trying to argue that a good salesman can get them to ignore what happens on the field?

While I can't quantify it directly, I can assure you that at some level, fan dissatisfaction plays into their decision process. They (the recruits) can see a coach and a team and a school that feels like home, they can sit with the coaches and see improvement on the field that fans can't see, they can see a system that is being put into place, that we can't see...and couldn't that all be destroyed when other coaches sit with them and say "yeah, but UT's fans are already calling for his head, he won't be at UT by the time you are a junior (thus none of what you feel is good there matters), come play for us.

Why would they go there when they can just say, "It isn't working. Look at the results on the field"?

Yes. A coach being on a hot seat factors in. But the reason coaches are in that situation is because of losing. Fans have little to do with that. Coaches have ALOT to do with that.

And again to bring this back into perspective. I am NOT talking about a title run. I'm not even talking about a NYD bowl. I'm talking about six wins. Six wins that can keep hope alive that Jones is something more than an average coach.

Even if that only factors at a marginal level, surely you can agree it still factors. And if it does factor, is your desire to air your expectation, arbitrary or not, worth it?

No more so than if a rival recruiter were saying, "Yeah look. Jones is a loser and their pathetic fans really expect no more. They're satisfied with the status quo of losing records... they've had six in a row. Come with us and win championships." Regardless of what fans say or do about a coach losing... a rival coach can use it.

Those are questions you have to answer yourself, during the summer between season 1 and season 2 of the Butch Jones project, as you are apparently already trying to seed your discontent. Let it play out. Surely there is no rational expectation of hot seat talk between the first and second season, but that is ultimately what you have been talking about since roughly the Missouri loss last year.

Again, I have used that exact same argument... and was wrong.

I see good and say so. I see bad and say so. I state clearly what I think the expectations should be. If Jones cannot overcome an insignificant fan speculating about whether he should be on a hot seat following two consecutive losing seasons or not... then he definitely isn't the right guy.

FWIW, that's similar to the responses I got back then. They were right. I was wrong.

 

[sjt18]

For most rational fans, it didnt take 3 seasons to learn that having Dooley as a head coach was akin to letting a five year old drive a tank. All the losing didnt help his cause, but the real reason he was let go was HOW he lost. His game time decisions, his handling of the media, the fans, the recruits, his relationships with local Tennessee highschool coaches, the coaches he brought in to run the offense and defense.

But it didn't start like that altogether. He limited the media but so has Jones. Jones may have cost UT a win vs UF last fall by starting Peterman. The Vandy game certainly wasn't well coached. Dooley was condemned for his team not showing up for the 2nd half vs Bama and Oregon in year 1. Both were close at the half... Jones' team didn't show up at all. In spite of your criticisms of Dooley, his undermanned team in that first season kind of played how you would expect an undermanned team to play. They schemed to keep them in it for a half but then depth and inexperience left them unable to adjust and keep competing.

I'm not sure that Wilcox and Chaney weren't better assistants that Bajakian and Jancek, are you? I am certain I'd take Wilcox back.

I think one of the big problems I have with many folks here right now is that they compare Dooley and Jones and either claim that Jones is no worse or is marginally better. Is that really what we should be looking for? Just a little better than Dooley?

Dooley's first year regular season schedule maybe included another winnable SEC game. Maybe if he played Mizzou that year instead of Ole Miss... he goes 5-7 or if the opposite and Jones had another easier opponent. But all that proves is that they were roughly equal in their first years. Again, how can that possibly be considered "good"?

 

[Volview]

A losing record again this fall will hurt recruiting. Even if you are right... you are still wrong. Recruits don't really care why you haven't had a winning season in 6 years or why the "new" HC has just had a 2nd losing season in his first two. They want to win and be given elite coaching that gives them their best shot at the NFL.

...but getting a new coach would hurt recruiting or even putting a coach on the hot seat without a fair amount of time would hurt recruiting as well.

"Why would you sign with Tennessee? Their coach will be gone before you even play a down. Come play for me, I will be able to develop your skills for the next four years and help you reach the NFL."

 

[MustafaRasta]

Let's start a petition! New Coach!

Fire Butch!

Let's get Gruden! This is UT! Blah blah blah


New recruits will be able to tell we are super serious about winning!!!!! There will be no way that other schools would use it against us in a negative way because we are the ORANGE!

 

[TXA&M07]

Let's start a petition! New Coach!

Fire Butch!

Let's get Gruden! This is UT! Blah blah blah


New recruits will be able to tell we are super serious about winning!!!!! There will be no way that other schools would use it against us in a negative way because we are the ORANGE!

Shoulda been here in 2010. Good times man. Good times.

 

[titansvolsfaninga]

With the news that Matthews is gone in the secondary at UGA, that game looks more winnable now.

 

[Boca Vol]

anybody with much a brain knew dooley was garbage. this is basically what is wrong with UT right now. we are excuse university. we think of reasons why we don't or won't win.

I agree with you. I wasn't taking up for Dooley but rather proving the point for the "Look what Butch walked into" crowd.

Butch shouldn't get a free pass. He should be held accountable.

 

[GrowVol]

Well...here's to us becoming more competitive!!! (consistently)... recruits will see and be attracted to this. On the other hand, having a top rated class and not coaching UP to a bowl game is a slippery slope in all regards. I have a gut feeling that Butch will surprise us this year.....but??
Bowl or bust(apathy for the best staff in america)!

 

[hmanvolfan]

I think if he doesn't at least get to the 4 team playoff he should be tarred and feathered.

 

[gunner]

So none of UT's opponents lost critical starters? Say Mizzou or Vandy?



Yes. You can blame Jones. He's the coach. He's had two full classes and two full years to develop the team he was left. Blame him for not winning the East? Absolutely not. Blame him for not beating the teams on his schedule with less talent? Absolutely.

It is amazing as someone yesterday spoke about. Many have lowered the bar to the point that failure is "acceptable" and what should be the minimum is treated like a miracle. Great coaches win when they don't have ideal talent and when they play difficult opponents.

Jones may or may not be great. UT however NEEDS a great, not good, coach.

UT is the only team in the nation to lose all starters on both lines of scrimmage, no other team in the SEC or nation is losing that much experience at the line of scrimmage, if you can't wrap your mind around the impact of that losing that much experience, just wait until UT goes up against the Bama or UF defensive line this fall. It will soon become readily apparent.

 

[YankeeVol]

He's getting 4 years at the minimum

 

[gunner]

He's getting 4 years at the minimum

Stop it, using common sense on this board isn't allowed!

 

[Slydell]

He's getting 4 years at the minimum

That might depend on the results from this year.

 

[JohnnyBall]

Who said he's overpaid??Seriously?

 

[GrowVol]

He's getting 4 years at the minimum

To get our team to 6-6? Or?

 

[champyvol]

I agree with you. I wasn't taking up for Dooley but rather proving the point for the "Look what Butch walked into" crowd.

Butch shouldn't get a free pass. He should be held accountable.

i agree with that. he walked into a mess because dooley was an idiot at best. that is the reason i said they should have fired dooley a year earlier. by keeping him around it just put us back further.

 

[champyvol]

He's getting 4 years at the minimum

if we look no better this year than last there won't be many fans in the stands. either way it won't matter, should be able to know weather he will be ok after this year. to keep him around 4 years if he don't win is just plain stupid. this is tenn though we have had hamilton, hart and dooley, with cheeky leading the way so it wouldn't surprise me no matter what they do.

 

[tnjay]

I've waited long enough, and it's time to call these posters out (and their ilk too numerous for multi-quotes).

I said the potential for this team is 6 wins + a bowl victory against a Fresno State, Northern Illinois, Rutgers, East Carolina type bowl opponent.

Are all of you seriously saying this is setting the bar too high? Are you seriously saying if we don't achieve this in Year Two there aren't serious questions / concerns?

setting the bar too high? no. i just think maybe we should trust the process. butch gets three years before anyone should mention a hot seat. also, i'm proud of my ilk. chill out, eddie.

 

[LotteryPick]

if we look no better this year than last there won't be many fans in the stands. either way it won't matter, should be able to know weather he will be ok after this year. to keep him around 4 years if he don't win is just plain stupid. this is tenn though we have had hamilton, hart and dooley, with cheeky leading the way so it wouldn't surprise me no matter what they do.

At what point has this happened? UT fans always show up.

Never been close to the level UF was at last season or Vandy every game, ever.

 

[utvol372]

We've played a tough schedule the last 4 years. Wasn't excuse enough for the last coach and shouldn't be for this coach

If I remember correctly, you were at the front of the line for making excuses for supercuts and orange pants. So why have you changed?

 

[champyvol]

At what point has this happened? UT fans always show up.

Never been close to the level UF was at last season or Vandy every game, ever.

for lesser games last year there were a lot of empty seats. that trend will continue or get worse if things keep going the way they have over the last 5 years. last year was the first year in a long while where i could have easily got tickets to every game. that says something about the state of UT football.

 

[RetardedElf]

for lesser games last year there were a lot of empty seats. that trend will continue or get worse if things keep going the way they have over the last 5 years. last year was the first year in a long while where i could have easily got tickets to every game. that says something about the state of UT football.

I think it also says something about the economy not being what it once was and every game but one is now on cable TV

 

[beasley11]

With the opinion circulating that Butch is overpaid, I think it is time to put down the metric for which Year Two will be judged.

Getting to a bowl game is an absolute minimum. Butch is making big boy dinero and he left wins on the field last year. We can forgive (because look who coached them the year before) but there are six no-brainer wins on our schedule and this team is already more than half his.

With the talent he has brought in, an extra month of practice, and we should absolutely handle any low tier bowl opponent. A 6 - 7 year and I think the heat should be on (and rightly so).

I like Butch, and I like almost everything he has done to date in Orange. At the end of the day though, Ws are the only coin of the realm. I think winning a bowl game is a successful Year Two. *

* (anything above 7-wins and the season is a big success as well, bowl game not included)

no more hot seat BS. let the man build a team... idc if it takes 4+ years... im tired of rebuilding a dang team every 2 or three years... jesus....