Your HOF Ballot

#51
#51
Toujours Pret said:
If he hit .300 for his career he still wouldn't be in the HOF. He had 3, maybe 4 "HOF Worthy" seasons, and quite a few good ones. But its not the Hall of Very Good.

As for HBP, I must've missed Ron Hunts plaque in Cooperstown.
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It's not the Hall Of Great either. That's my point in bringing up Valenzuela and how famous he was. Nobody knows what the hell it is, which is why if Pete Rose wasn't its breaking point then the steroid era is.

I'm not even sure if Don Sutton was a Very Good pitcher rather than merely Good For A Long Time. Yet he was a completely uncontroversial selection. Any lines you start drawing are completely arbitrary.
 
#52
#52
Toujours Pret said:
If he hit .300 for his career he still wouldn't be in the HOF. He had 3, maybe 4 "HOF Worthy" seasons, and quite a few good ones. But its not the Hall of Very Good.

As for HBP, I must've missed Ron Hunts plaque in Cooperstown.
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You mean he still wouldn't be worthy in your mind?

You do realize he's going to get in, right?

63% is the the highest percentage of votes someone has gotten without making the hall of fame. He got 68.2% his first year eligible.

Biggio didn't go in on the first ballot but he's going in. It's virtually inevitable.
 
#53
#53
TOP said:
He would be a .300 hitter if he played 15 years instead of 20.
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That would scratch the 3,000 hits which is a far more valuable stat. Biggio has more career hits than these guys...

Rickey Henderson
Rod Carew
Lou Brock
Rafael Palmeiro
Wade Boggs
Al Kaline
Roberto Clemente

No brainer, IMO.

I'm with you but you didn't exactly strengthen the argument.
 
#54
#54
TOP said:
You mean he still wouldn't be worthy in your mind?

You do realize he's going to get in, right?

63% is the the highest percentage of votes someone has gotten without making the hall of fame. He got 68.2% his first year eligible.

Biggio didn't go in on the first ballot but he's going in. It's virtually inevitable.
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What the hell does me not considering him a HOF'er have to do with him getting in? I wouldn't vote for him, if I could vote. I realize hes going to likely get in. I'm personally not impressed with compiling statistics over 20 years while being a good ballplayer.
 
#55
#55
Hobock said:
That would scratch the 3,000 hits which is a far more valuable stat. Biggio has more career hits than these guys...

Rickey Henderson
Rod Carew
Lou Brock
Rafael Palmeiro
Wade Boggs
Al Kaline
Roberto Clemente

No brainer, IMO.

I'm with you but you didn't exactly strengthen the argument.
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I know. His 3,000 hits are watered down, I'm not denying it. He was a great player for like 15 years and stuck around for love of the game, money, getting 3,000 hits... whatever it was. He isn't the only player that's ever done it thought and people don't hold it against them. Favre, he's an example of someone who did it. He just happened to play at Lambeu and won a championship. Quite frankly, I don't think he's amazing as some people make him out to be. Marino actually broke the touchdown record without setting the interception record.

It's the nature of the beast. 3,000 hits get you in, just like 500 home runs get you in. Is there anyone with either of those stats who have been left out? They might be now because of steroids but that's different. Surely Biggio isn't the worst 3,000 hitter. It may have taken him longer to get there but it wasn't all he did.
 
#56
#56
The voters that kill me are the ones that turn in blank ballots to pull the percentages down. Also, there was one voter that had Aaron Sele on his ballot.
 
#57
#57
Toujours Pret said:
What the hell does me not considering him a HOF'er have to do with him getting in? I wouldn't vote for him, if I could vote. I realize hes going to likely get in. I'm personally not impressed with compiling statistics over 20 years while being a good ballplayer.
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Okay... someone is easily angered...

You said he wouldn't get in even if he hit .300.

He's getting in. The question is, what are you talking about?

By the way, your avatar is a buttchugging dog and you're probably not even a Tennessee fan. Your opinion is uh... probably not relevant to anyone.
 
#58
#58
GAVol said:
The voters that kill me are the ones that turn in blank ballots to pull the percentages down. Also, there was one voter that had Aaron Sele on his ballot.
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That's ridiculous. Those people shouldn't even be allowed to vote. They obviously have a high opinion of themselves and have been perfect in life.

I get not wanting to vote in players who are proved steroid users but now they're just leaving out players who played in the same era. When you start voting that way, you better be perfect in life. "He looks like a steroid user so I'm not going to vote for him". Or in the case of not voting at all, none of them are worthy because MLB ignored the steroid problem. He thinks the game is too good for them, yet MLB let it happen and he continued watching. Not only should he not vote, he shouldn't bother watching MLB anymore. He's too good for it apparently.
 
#59
#59
TOP said:
Okay... someone is easily angered...

You said he wouldn't get in even if he hit .300.

He's getting in. The question is, what are you talking about?

By the way, your avatar is a buttchugging dog and you're probably not even a Tennessee fan. Your opinion is uh... probably not relevant to anyone.
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Well Cletus, you said if he played 15 years he'd have hit 300. Which he might be close, I won't take the time to do the math, as at 15 years, with 2200 or so hits, he's, well, a .300 hitter who had a nice little career. But not a Hall of Famer.
 
#60
#60
TOP said:
Surely Biggio isn't the worst 3,000 hitter.
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Lowest career BA with 3,000 hits....

Ripken-.276
Henderson-.279
Biggio-.281
Winfield-.283
Yastrzemski-.285
Yount-.285
Murray-.287
 
#61
#61
Denying Jeff Bagwell would be a travesty - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

I remember that article from last year.

I'm the first to admit Biggio isn't first ballot and Bagwell might have taken steroids.

Bias or not, I think they're HOF worthy.

Last year, his first time on the Hall of Fame ballot, Bagwell received 41.7 percent of the vote. As Hall of Fame chances go, that isnÂ’t necessarily a distressing starting point. Jim Rice got 29.8 percent his first year. Goose Gossage received 33.3 percent and Gary Carter 42.3 percent. Andre Dawson didnÂ’t begin much higher, at 45.3 percent. Bert Blyleven notoriously started at just 17.8 percent. The writers would eventually vote all those players into the Hall.

The vote total, however, drew outrage across the Internet, and understandably so. For a player of Bagwell's abilities and accomplishments to receive such a low vote total was ... well, something of historic precedent.

Using Baseball-Reference's ranking of players via its Wins Above Replacement statistic, Bagwell rates as one most dominant players since World War II. Here are the position players ranked Nos. 11 through 30 and how many years it took them to get voted into the Hall of Fame:

11. Joe Morgan, 103.5 WAR (1)
12. Eddie Mathews, 98.3 (5)
13. Al Kaline, 91.0 (1)
14. Cal Ripken, 89.9 (1)
15. Albert Pujols, 89.1 (not eligible)
16. Wade Boggs, 89.0 (1)
17. Carl Yastrzemski, 88.7 (1)
18. George Brett, 85.0 (1)
19. Roberto Clemente, 83.8 (1)
20. Chipper Jones, 82.9 (not eligible)
21. JEFF BAGWELL, 79.9 (41.7 percent)
22. Rod Carew, 79.1 (1)
23. Ken Griffey Jr., 78.5 (not eligible)
24. Robin Yount, 76.9 (1)
25. Frank Thomas, 75.9 (not eligible)
26. Pete Rose, 75.3 (not eligible)
27. Paul Molitor, 74.8 (1)
28. Reggie Jackson, 74.6 (1)
29. Jim Thome, 71.4 (not eligible)
30. Johnny Bench, 71.3 (1)

Wins Above Replacement may not be a perfect statistic, but I don't think anyone can argue that the above list represents anything other than a list of the greatest players of the past 50-plus years. As you can see, other than Mathews, every eligible candidate cruised into Cooperstown in his first year of eligibility. Furthermore, the following players, all with a career WAR below 70, made it in their first year: Brooks Robinson, Tony Gwynn, Eddie Murray, Willie McCovey, Ozzie Smith, Ernie Banks, Dave Winfield, Willie Stargell and Kirby Puckett.

Yet Bagwell couldn't receive 50 percent of the vote, which indicates one of two things:

1. A large percentage of voters don't realize how great Bagwell was.
2. A large percentage of voters didn't vote for him because he had big muscles.
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So in the minds of fans, Biggio should be the second 3,000 hitter outside of Rose to not make the HOF and Bagwell should be the second guy in the top 30 on that list not to make the HOF....

Has every 3,000 hitter besides Rose gotten in?

Anyways, you can see how if Bagwell and Biggio played on a big market team like New York or Boston, they would already be in. But the Houston Astros suck, never won anything, so pathetic that you can force the new owner to transfer them over to the American League. That's the Astros for ya and if you played for em, you're irrelevant. Barely losing out because they played the Braves is just like the Pacers barely losing out because they played the Bulls. You continue barely falling short of some of the greatest dynasties in the history of sports and you're penalized for it.
 
#63
#63
The joke is that Craig Biggio was the leading vote getter in a field that included Fred McGriff and Tim Raines. Just makes no sense.
 
#65
#65
TOP said:
Denying Jeff Bagwell would be a travesty - SweetSpot Blog - ESPN

I remember that article from last year.

I'm the first to admit Biggio isn't first ballot and Bagwell might have taken steroids.

Bias or not, I think they're HOF worthy.





So in the minds of fans, Biggio should be the second 3,000 hitter outside of Rose to not make the HOF and Bagwell should be the second guy in the top 30 on that list not to make the HOF....

Has every 3,000 hitter besides Rose gotten in?

Anyways, you can see how if Bagwell and Biggio played on a big market team like New York or Boston, they would already be in. But the Houston Astros suck, never won anything, so pathetic that you can force the new owner to transfer them over to the American League. That's the Astros for ya and if you played for em, you're irrelevant. Barely losing out because they played the Braves is just like the Pacers barely losing out because they played the Bulls. You continue barely falling short of some of the greatest dynasties in the history of sports and you're penalized for it.
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ask nolan ryan how he feels about that
 
#69
#69
Toujours Pret said:
I would go as far as saying dominant, for a period. Biggio more or less plugged along to a nice career.
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Bagwell was the superstar on that team. The rest of those guys, aside from Rickey, were the markee players on their respective teams.
 
#70
#70
Roids make it tough. We don't know for sure who did and who didn't. But if you vote for a player that did then you can't not vote for another who did if they have the #'s.

Say you vote for Mac and not Bonds or vice versa. That's my issue. But baseball writers are the worst anyway.
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#72
#72
GAVol said:
They've got to be the most tribal, sanctimonious group ever.
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That's true.

I find it hilarious how Verducci and Rosenthal (guys I respect, btw) said "Yeah, baseball writers could have done more about the steroid era" and then say "I'm not putting any steroid guy in the HOF."

Yeah, ok.

Also, about Biggio...he had a higher WAR in the 1990's than Robbie Alomar.
 
#74
#74
GAVol said:
The voters that kill me are the ones that turn in blank ballots to pull the percentages down. Also, there was one voter that had Aaron Sele on his ballot.
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Baseball writers are the biggest group of sanctimonious, self-aggrandizing a-holes I can think of. Piazza pulling 57.8% is ridiculous. He will get in, though.

I'm fine with any and all of the steroid-era guys getting in. It defined the era, and if it tarnishes the hall then it's on MLB for willfully turning a blind eye. Imagine where baseball would have been in the last 10-15 years without the McGwire-Sosa HR race.
 
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