Vol_is_Lyfe18
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I understand EXACTLY what's happened since Fulmer was fired... and the 6 years or so before he was fired as he was running the program downhill.From this pits we know two things about you:
1). You obviously just don't understand what has happened to the program since Fulmer was fired
2). You don't like Butch
Why are we the only program in America where coaches need 5 years before they can be evaluated? How often do coaches show very little improvement over 4 years and then suddenly make a big leap in year 5? Why does Butch Jones need more time than coaches at Vanderbilt, Ole Miss, Miss State, Arkansas, etc?
If your coach needs a roster stocked with 4 star recruits and 5th year seniors in order to field a competitive squad then your coach is terrible.
So you're using one OOC game as a measuring stick? He still managed five SEC wins, while we managed two.
So Saban can take over from Shula who was little if any better than Dooley... and win in year two.
Freeze can take over a complete train wreck at Ole Miss and compete for the West in year 3.
Sumlin takes over for a guy who couldn't win and didn't even recruit all that well and wins right away.
Franklin takes over a "never was" program at Vandy and sets program high water marks within 3 years.
But at UT with some of the best facilities in the country... not only do you have to act as if you are rebuilding the roster from scratch... you have to wait until the first class is either graduated or RS SRs before expecting results.... ?
Gotcha.
How many years was Dooley here......
Do WHAT?!?!?!
Jones inherited 4 upperclass OL's with NFL futures... 3 of them are currently STARTING. I have not kept up with him but Neal was on a practice roster at one point. McCullers has played for the Steelers. He inherited one of the most prolific LB's in UT history. He inherited a Jr QB and a highly recruited back up.
There is absolutely NO comparison between the situations. Franklin's was much worse.
I will give you a teaser. There IS a good argument to be made here... but talent isn't it.
No dammit. I'm not. FFS read my last edit.
I started by posting a question.
You didn't answer it and just offered an excuse. Like it or not you DIDN'T. So I said that and went and got the data myself. And then I speculated that IF we had equal patsies and IF we took care of business against Vandy (there is no valid reason for TN to lose to Vandy.... EVER!) they still beat us straight up on win count.
In a straight up with all "patsies" being equal they still beat us by one game. I didnt't justify or excuse anything. I just answered my own freaking question.
So, just so I have this straight...
Exception: Bielema at Arkansas, Malzahn at Auburn, Freeze at Ole Miss, Franklin at Vanderbilt
Rule: Us
Damn, it would be nice to be the exception just once, for a change.
Chill out, you act like I sit their waiting for you to make an edit.
I agree there is NO valid reason to Vandy.
Butch Jones started 13 4-star recruits against James Franklin's Vanderbilt team last year. Many of them juniors or seniors. Do you know how many 4-star recruit starters James Franklin had? He had 1. This whole "James Franklin inherited a better situation than Butch Jones" excuse-making is just ridiculous.
Dude, you had my edit in your quote. You're the one needing to chill out here and several others but whatever. Go read the two posts (that I regret making now...) earlier in this thread they had two questions only and offered no excuses.
1. What was the class seniority stackup of the coaches being presented as "getting it done" vs TN/Butch
2. What was Vandy's OOC schedule as compared to ours since Franklin is getting thrown up a lot in here. And he should be, the guy is a total p***k but he can coach and recuit.
I still don't know the answer to 1 as that one will be a PITA to data mine. I found my own answer on 2 and actually pointed out the data lines up with your arguement if you'll stop internet yelling at me and just read what I posted.
Base roster? How do you judge THAT? Saban culled a bunch of guys.Shula won 10 games 2 years before Saban was hired. Had a base roster much better than what Jones got (see Below)
No. It simply wasn't. You above all others here should really be better than turning a blind eye and making excuses. Even if it was... Jones obviously does not play in the West nor can he match Freeze's first two years.Freeze's record is 7-6, 8-5, 8-3 looking at maybe or 8-5?? Very likely to be 8-4 this weekend. Possible Jones could be at 8 in his 3rd year. (Personally I think 7 is ceiling but I could be wrong and 8 doable). Nutt had also won 9 games 3 years before Freeze arrived so roster better than what Jones came to.
They tied for the Big 12 South... with Texas in the throes of Brown's end. It was a good year. Sumlin STILL didn't inherit a great roster and certainly not enough better to explain the difference in results completely.A&M won 9 games and was division champions 2 years before Sumlin arrived. Had a base roster much better than what CBJ got (see below)
Yes. We really, really do. As long as people are trying to argue that Jones was just too deep in the hole when he started to win more than 7 games in his first 3 years... then what Franklin did at Vandy is absolutely relevant.Do we really want to discuss the Vanderbilt anomaly? We should never compare UT to Vandy IMO.
I have NEVER argued he came into a good situation. Only that it does not take the 4 and 5 year rebuilds for a coach like the one UT needs to turn things around as evidenced by W's.As for Jones:
the last 10 win season at Tennessee was 2007, 6 years before Jones was hired.
3 head coaches in that 6 year period. 5 S&C coaches. 35 different assistants.
Horrible recruiting from the head coach and staff prior to Jones arriving.
JMO (and you are welcome to disagree) but Jones arrived at a situation no where near what those you named came into.
Frankly, Jones and staff do have to improve their game day coaching. They do make decisions that raise some questions. I would not debate that with other fans because I agree with their thoughts on that. Recruiting is definitely in the right direction. The roster is a LONG way from being competitive in this conference though. That is due to those proceeding coaches.
Yes, I was aware this would circle around to a discussion of our supposedly All-World Oline that never could run block worth a flip while they were here. I am glad to see them doing well but there is also a reason only James was drafted. I stand by the point of my post that Jones didn't inherit two playmakers as good as Stacey and Matthews and that Franklin's predecessor Bobby Johnson was much better than Derek Dooley and left behind a better foundation to build from at least in the very short run...Having said that of course we should have beaten Vandy last year.
Base roster? How do you judge THAT? Saban culled a bunch of guys.
He won 10 that year... sandwiched between 4, 6, and 6. Only 3 of those regular season wins came against teams that finished with a winning record... and two of them only won 7... and one of those was So Miss. The combined record of the teams he beat that year was 40-56.
No. It simply wasn't. You above all others here should really be better than turning a blind eye and making excuses. Even if it was... Jones obviously does not play in the West nor can he match Freeze's first two years.
They tied for the Big 12 South... with Texas in the throes of Brown's end. It was a good year. Sumlin STILL didn't inherit a great roster and certainly not enough better to explain the difference in results completely.
Yes. We really, really do. As long as people are trying to argue that Jones was just too deep in the hole when he started to win more than 7 games in his first 3 years... then what Franklin did at Vandy is absolutely relevant.
I have NEVER argued he came into a good situation. Only that it does not take the 4 and 5 year rebuilds for a coach like the one UT needs to turn things around as evidenced by W's.
Disagree. A coach should be able to bring in enough of "his" players within 3 classes to be "competitive"..... if he's ever going to be competitive.
This. The whole idea that Butch is not required to win until he gets "his" recruits is complete BS. By year 4 and 5 his first two classes will be gone. Its gonna be a perpetual "wait until next year" type of scenario based on the logic of excuses being made.Also, any player we have that is any good will be gone after 2-3 years of playing. Then the young excuse is back--no need to redshirt anymore...kids just don't stay. Better get it done in year 3.