15 Mind-Blowing Facts About Wealth And Inequality In America

[droski]

There are ways to address these issues. Must be US citizens (easy to document) If they are dismissed before a certain cut off date, they lose the credit + pay a penalty. Same as a late fee on a bill...

you obviously don't live in a border state if you think the govt does a good job verifying US citizenship when it comes to employment.

 

[Weezy]

That's why I always put my comments in the form of a question, that way they feel like they are enlightening me.

 

[droski]

Couldn't we just put tariffs on imports from countries with unacceptable work conditions which would protect American manufacturing jobs? Might raise prices on some ****, but it might offset the loss of jobs and create incentive for companies not to outsource.

sounds like a great way to turn us into japan.

 

[JayVols]

so say i've been wanting to hire 20 people for a while now, but am now just getting around to it. now i find out about this tax incentive and wait till it kicks in. how are these net jobs created?

Dude, you are just arguing to be arguing its seems. What if a frog had wings? What if the South had won? What if the AK QB didn't fumble in '98? You can play what ifs all day. Why haven't you pulled the trigger and hired already? Why are you waiting? Get the point?

 

[Gramps]

show me a company that fires people that generate net positive revenue and hire indians to replace them and i'll show you a company that isn't in business much longer.

You are trying to change the discussion.
What you said was:

Originally Posted by droski
i see so you think it's fair to compare outsourcing (which btw doesn't happen to competent employees) to railroad towns where the company owned the town, owned the goods provided there, and set the prices?


There are 1000's of employess that have worked 20years for the same employer then goes to work one day and discovers that the plant he/she and 300+ other employees are losing their job because the corporation is moving the plant to another country.

Fact is competent employees do get there jobs outsourced.

 

[JayVols]

you obviously don't live in a border state if you think the govt does a good job verifying US citizenship when it comes to employment.

Maybe a company should do their homework. They have responsibilities as well. I thought you guys hated gov't intervention.....

 

[BigPapaVol]

That's why I always put my comments in the form of a question, that way they feel like they are enlightening me.

really? That would explain the graphs that had no explanatory value whatsoever, right?

See what I did there? Now you get to enlighten.

 

[droski]

Dude, you are just arguing to be arguing its seems. What if a frog had wings? What if the South had won? What if the AK QB didn't fumble in '98? You can play what ifs all day. Why haven't you pulled the trigger and hired already? Why are you waiting? Get the point?

forgive me for pointing out the OBVIOUS flaws in your plan.

 

[droski]

There are 1000's of employess that have worked 20years for the same employer then goes to work one day and discovers that the plant he/she and 300+ other employees are losing their job because the corporation is moving the plant to another country.

Fact is competent employees do get there jobs outsourced.

i dont' consider someone particurally competent if they can be easily replaced by someone making half their income.

 

[droski]

Maybe a company should do their homework. They have responsibilities as well. I thought you guys hated gov't intervention.....

are you seriously arguing these companies don't know they are hiring illegal immigrants?

 

[KB5252]

Maybe a company should do their homework. They have responsibilities as well. I thought you guys hated gov't intervention.....

Why should the company have to? Last I checked border security and immigration was a very important job that fall under the federal governments jurisdiction. They can't even manage to properly verify and manage our illegal immigration problem with vast resources compared to a medium or even large company.

It's much harder than you think, especially considering how elected officials let it snowball over decades.

 

[Weezy]

really? That would explain the graphs that had no explanatory value whatsoever, right?

See what I did there? Now you get to enlighten.

I just thought the graphs supported the arguments of the depression era and recent widening of separation between the top 1% and middle classes. Didn't really want to jump in the argument when it looked like it was going to be an active one that would require me to do extensive research on **** that is not conducive to me writing my engineering thesis.

I know Droski and BPV know more about economics than me, and I generally have an opposite view from discussions with people from the other side who also know a lot more than me, so it's nice for me to get a nice counter view on this site. I wish we could get more people over here who understand enough to take the other side; however, when that happens it looks like a few people on here bring good discussion, but it also littered with a whole bunch of "lol liberal idiot commies" that gets them to leave. Anyways, the point of this rant was to explain why I use questions. I am looking for the opinions of others without getting into arguments on stuff I can't argue. But just because I'm young and out of my knowledge base, doesn't mean I'm taking everybody's word for it on here.

anyways, continue....

 

[droski]

people that understand economics don't argue we need new tarrifs. that goes against the core of economic theory. not trying to be an ass, just telling it as it is.

history is filled with industries going out of business in the united states and moving overseas. every time a new and higher paying industry has taken it's place. i see no reason to argue this time is different. i very much doubt we'd be happy if we were still making toasters in the us as an example.

 

[JayVols]

are you seriously arguing these companies don't know they are hiring illegal immigrants?

You have a problem with comprehension. I am arguing that it is the company's responsibility to know if someone is legal or not. Companies damn sure know they are hiring illegals, exacerbating our immigration issues.

 

[JayVols]

Why should the company have to? Last I checked border security and immigration was a very important job that fall under the federal governments jurisdiction. They can't even manage to properly verify and manage our illegal immigration problem with vast resources compared to a medium or even large company.

It's much harder than you think, especially considering how elected officials let it snowball over decades.

No argument here except to say that a little personal/company responsibility would help some. Dems want illegals for potential voters. Repubs want illegals so businesses have access to cheap labor. The people have been sold out by both parties on this one.

 

[JayVols]

forgive me for pointing out the OBVIOUS flaws in your plan.

No you are throwing questions that the answers to are obvious....What would your solution be. More untargeted tax cuts that helped get us here in the first place? Offer some solutions, oh Great One>>>

 

[volinbham]

Couldn't we just put tariffs on imports from countries with unacceptable work conditions which would protect American manufacturing jobs? Might raise prices on some ****, but it might offset the loss of jobs and create incentive for companies not to outsource.

the problem is that it removes the competitive incentive for U.S. based producers. When you effectively downgrade/limit competition via tariffs you remove incentive.

To me it's a recipe for stagnation and eventual degredation of the economy. It certainly wouldn't make us more competitve globally.

As an alternative, I'd use the tax code to encourage innovation (e.g. the R&D credits; the accelerated depreciation, etc.) and use govt programs (to the extent we have them) to help transition people from the industries that are dying domestically to the industries that we can compete in globally.

 

[droski]

No you are throwing questions that the answers to are obvious....What would your solution be. More untargeted tax cuts that helped get us here in the first place? Offer some solutions, oh Great One>>>

i'd suggest a payroll tax cut would have the same desired effect without all the pain in the ass. Though keeping the bush tax cuts would ahve a larger net effect because of the inefficiencies of the corporate structure.

 

[sjt18]

Let's simplify that JayVols and just go back to one of the taxes our Founders allowed and favored: Import Tariffs. Those are one of the best ways for a sovereign country to prevent becoming an effective colony to another country. I would like to see our State Dept estimate wages in various competing foreign industrial countries to provide a basis for those tariffs. If the Chinese insist on paying their laborers $4/hr then we tariff them to bring that rate effectively up to the US minimum wage or industrial wage avg.

Why on earth though would you be opposed ANY tax cut for ANYONE? How does it help you in any way, shape, or form for investors to have potential $ that could create a productive job taxed away?

 

[KB5252]

No you are throwing questions that the answers to are obvious....What would your solution be. More untargeted tax cuts that helped get us here in the first place? Offer some solutions, oh Great One>>>

Cuts weren't the problem IMO, out of control spending reinforced by the American public continually allowing it to happen via new programs, initiatives etc. Until we say no more and force them to streamline and run in an efficient manner we can only look forward to more taxes direct and indirect.

 

[sjt18]

Maybe a company should do their homework. They have responsibilities as well. I thought you guys hated gov't intervention.....

I think owners and management of companies that hire illegals should pay fines and go to jail.

I also think that any gov't employee that extends any continuing benefit to an illegal should face dismissal, fines, and jail. If you take away the incentive to come illegally... they won't come illegally.

Finally, we should set up border versions of Ellis Island to process legals quickly and effectively in through all 4 border states. Each site should have 2 dept's. One handles those looking for permanent status and citizenship and the other for the masses who want to work for awhile then go home.

 

[droski]

I think owners and management of companies that hire illegals should pay fines and go to jail.

I also think that any gov't employee that extends any continuing benefit to an illegal should face dismissal, fines, and jail. If you take away the incentive to come illegally... they won't come illegally.

Finally, we should set up border versions of Ellis Island to process legals quickly and effectively in through all 4 border states. Each site should have 2 dept's. One handles those looking for permanent status and citizenship and the other for the masses who want to work for awhile then go home.

taking away automatic citizenship for any baby born in the US to illegals would be a good start.

 

[droski]

Let's simplify that JayVols and just go back to one of the taxes our Founders allowed and favored: Import Tariffs. Those are one of the best ways for a sovereign country to prevent becoming an effective colony to another country. I would like to see our State Dept estimate wages in various competing foreign industrial countries to provide a basis for those tariffs. If the Chinese insist on paying their laborers $4/hr then we tariff them to bring that rate effectively up to the US minimum wage or industrial wage avg.

i'm not sure why we'd want to keep those type of manufacturing jobs in the US. its' an inefficient use of our laborforce. yes unemployment is high now, but all this does is discourage people from switching industries and being retrained for higher economic positions. now i do agree the chinese (and japanese) should be forced to have the same lack of tariffs on US goods as we have on theirs.

 

[sjt18]

Wow, man. Just.... wow. It is your right but you are waaay right aren't you..... an no I am not way left....I'm a moderate Independent.

No. I'm actually pretty libertarian on most issues. You would probably best define me as an originalist constitutionalist. I know there were failures in application... but the principles the country was founded on are the best in human history.

If the Libertarian Party weren't pro-abortion, I would register LP and vote LP. I believe life is the most fundamental right and we should always err to the side of caution when protecting it legally.

If you have proof against what I posted then give it. I will gladly debate any you cite. This is NOT a Republican vs Democrat thing though.

The shot gun I just fired btw hits Republicans almost as many times as Dems. Progressives took control of both parties between 1910 and 1920. They had taken control of many universities prior to that and shortly afterwards the most influential parts of the press (before that era we had a partisan press that kept the sides in line). Until Goldwater, virtually no one in the political class stood up for the principles the country was founded on vs Progressivism.

The GOP took a turn to the right almost by accident. It just happened to be the party where some of the more notable conservatives were. A migration has been taking place among conservatives from Ind/Dems to Reps since 1980. The TP is just a continuation of that. The establishment Republicans need but fear grass roots conservatives. But make no mistake, most are not principled conservatives.

 

[sjt18]

i'm not sure why we'd want to keep those type of manufacturing jobs in the US. its' an inefficient use of our laborforce. yes unemployment is high now, but all this does is discourage people from switching industries and being retrained for higher economic positions. now i do agree the chinese (and japanese) should be forced to have the same lack of tariffs on US goods as we have on theirs.

Because if you do not harvest, mine, invent, or add value to things... you do not create real wealth. The notion that we can survive on a service dominated economy is a myth. There is no real wealth creation.