2013 F Austin Nichols (Memphis Briarcrest)

[cncchris33]

So the two simply can't be compared, statistically, because they're in different classes?

That's convenient.

That's not what I said and you know it. Grow up. By your own admission, We have a limited sample size for Stokes; half a season when he should have been playing out his senior season in HS. If those are the only stats you have to use, then I think your results are going to be skewed, at best.

Furthermore, if that's your best argument, then it's clear you are arguing for the sake of it. But, we already know that.

 

[BadJerry20]

Comparing stats to see who has the better offensive game is silly. Watch them play, who has actual offensive moves? Plus one of those players is a good passer and a good offensive rebounded. Guys that score off dunks and put backs are totally different than a guy that has post moves. One of those players actually get plays called for him. Howard scores at a better clip than Bynum, yet anyone will tell you Bynum has a better offensive game. Numbers are not the end all be all.

 

[MemphisCanes]

In what?

All the stats point to Jarnell as the better player, especially offensively, especially when you factor in Stokes is the #1 option on his team.

What? Black has better stats than Jarnell in every category concerning putting the ball in the basket.

ORating, Ef%, TS%. Black is simply the more efficient scorer, if you look at stats. If you want to use Jarnell's predominence in UT's offense as a way to ignore the numbers, be my guest, but if you're going to ignore stats, don't bring them up. The logical progression of these numbers is, if Tarik played as many minutes as Stokes and took as many shots, he'd be averaging around 18-20 points per game.

The stats, as we've gone over twice now, come out to a wash between the two players for the most part, which is exactly what I said to begin this conversation.

 

[MemphisCanes]

That's not what I said and you know it. Grow up. By your own admission, We have a limited sample size for Stokes; half a season when he should have been playing out his senior season in HS. If those are the only stats you have to use, then I think your results are going to be skewed, at best.

Furthermore, if that's your best argument, then it's clear you are arguing for the sake of it. But, we already know that.

If you don't want to use Stokes' sample size, I understand. But that's not what ZJC is doing. He's comparing the stats between the two and arguing 1>2.

 

[MemphisCanes]

Comparing stats to see who has the better offensive game is silly. Watch them play, who has actual offensive moves? Plus one of those players is a good passer and a good offensive rebounded. Guys that score off dunks and put backs are totally different than a guy that has post moves. One of those players actually get plays called for him. Howard scores at a better clip than Bynum, yet anyone will tell you Bynum has a better offensive game. Numbers are not the end all be all.

Just watch Black and tell me that he doesn't have offensive moves around the basket. By ZJC's own admission, he can't rebound offensively, so he's not just just grabbing rebounds and putting it back. When he gets the ball within 7 feet of the basket, back to the basket or no, it's 2 points and he's most likely going to the line as well.

 

[BadJerry20]

Just watch Black and tell me that he doesn't have offensive moves around the basket. By ZJC's own admission, he can't rebound offensively, so he's not just just grabbing rebounds and putting it back. When he gets the ball within 7 feet of the basket, back to the basket or , it's 2 points and he's most likely going to the line as well.

His offensive repertoire is not close to Stokes, you have to know that. He can't pass, or offensive rebound like Stokes and you know that too. So how exactly is he a better offensive player? In what area on offense is he better? Your argument is, if he gets it within 7 feet of the basket it's 2pts and usually a foul? He is 6'9 260 he should score from there. I'm simply stating you can't throw out numbers and say someone is better at O or D because of them. Dennis Rodman is one of the best defensive players ever. Yet he averaged less than one steal and a little over half a block a game. So throwing out numbers are not always accurate assessment of a players ability at either end.

 

[MemphisCanes]

His offensive repertoire is not close to Stokes, you have to know that. He can't pass, or offensive rebound like Stokes and you know that too. So how exactly is he a better offensive player? In what area on offense is he better? Your argument is, if he gets it within 7 feet of the basket it's 2pts and usually a foul? He is 6'9 260 he should score from there. I'm simply stating you can't throw out numbers and say someone is better at O or D because of them. Dennis Rodman is one of the best defensive players ever. Yet he averaged less than one steal and a little over half a block a game. So throwing out numbers are not always accurate assessment of a players ability at either end.

The quintessential part of offense: Putting the ball in the basket. He does it better than Stokes and the numbers support it. I don't really care if my post man can pass the ball, if the only thing he needs to do once he gets it is put it in the basket. Stokes grabs more offensive rebounds and still can't surpass Black in the ability to put the ball in the basket efficiently.

As for throwing out numbers, I'm simply responding to ZJC, who began the "throwing out numbers". I'm simply saying: watch them both play. You guys obviously watch Stokes and are thrilled. Watch Black, and if you have a shred of unbiased basketball accumen, you'll be impressed as well.

 

[bleedingTNorange]

January 4th should settle the "who's better" debate.

 

[MemphisCanes]

January 4th should settle the "who's better" debate.

My point was never who's better. My point was they're both great players. Their numbers are SO similar that to say Jarnell is a great player, but Tarik is not is intellectually dishonest.

 

[BadJerry20]

The quintessential part of offense: Putting the ball in the basket. He does it better than Stokes and the numbers support it. I don't really care if my post man can pass the ball, if the only thing he needs to do once he gets it is put it in the basket. Stokes grabs more offensive rebounds and still can't surpass Black in the ability to put the ball in the basket efficiently.

As for throwing out numbers, I'm simply responding to ZJC, who began the "throwing out numbers". I'm simply saying: watch them both play. You guys obviously watch Stokes and are thrilled. Watch Black, and if you have a shred of unbiased basketball accumen, you'll be impressed as well.

Stokes is the focal point of the offense, Black gets to take a back seat. Stokes gets double and tripled every time he touches the ball, of course there is going a difference in efficiency. Stokes has better post moves, better off the dribble, better O rebounder, better passer (whether you care or not it is part of offense), it's fairly obvious who the better offensive player is.

I didn't quote you when referring to stats I spoke in generalities. Though I did smile at you saying the numbers support it in the first paragraph. Then said you were only responding to numbers in the second. Lol I've seen Black play and he is a good player. Just not the equal to Stokes all around offensive game. Read any of my posts, I'm one of the most unbiased posters you will read.

 

[MemphisCanes]

Stokes is the focal point of the offense, Black gets to take a back seat. Stokes gets double and tripled every time he touches the ball, of course there is going a difference in efficiency. Stokes has better post moves, better off the dribble, better O rebounder, better passer (whether you care or not it is part of offense), it's fairly obvious who the better offensive player is.

You say all that, but the numbers don't support that Stokes scores better than Black. That's just a fact that you should come to grips with. Stokes may have better "post moves" than Black, but the difference in negligible. What Black lacks in footwork, he more than makes up with in upper body control and the ability to finish. The fact that Stokes is a better passer is like arguing whose PG is a better shot blocker.

I didn't quote you when referring to stats I spoke in generalities. Though I did smile at you saying the numbers support it in the first paragraph. Then said you were only responding to numbers in the second. Lol I've seen Black play and he is a good player. Just not the equal to Stokes all around offensive game. Read any of my posts, I'm one of the most unbiased posters you will read.

The numbers don't lie and neither does the eye test. Tarik Black does several things better than Jarnell, one of which is score. I'm not arguing that Tarik is the better player, I'm simply saying the two are comparable.

 

[BadJerry20]

The numbers don't lie and neither does the eye test. Tarik Black does several things better than Jarnell, one of which is score. I'm not arguing that Tarik is the better player, I'm simply saying the two are comparable.

Once again one guy is the focal point of the offense and commands double and triple teams. The other guy is the 4th option and doesn't draw the bulk of the defenses focus. I'm not sure why you don't understand that this will hinder a players efficiency. Your eye test should show you that, if you were unbiased you would acknowledge this.

Edit: you are 100% right a big shouldn't be able to pass out of a double team and hit an open man for the 3. Such a useless tool for a big to have. Smh

 

[MemphisCanes]

Once again one guy is the focal point of the offense and commands double and triple teams. The other guy is the 4th option and doesn't draw the bulk of the defenses focus. I'm not sure why you don't understand that this will hinder a players efficiency. Your eye test should show you that, if you were unbiased you would acknowledge this.

Edit: you are 100% right a big shouldn't be able to pass out of a double team and hit an open man for the 3. Such a useless tool for a big to have. Smh

If you think Tarik is our 4th option, then you haven't watched us play.

Ball goes in to Tarik almost every time down the floor, if the double comes he passes out of it and the ball continues around the perimeter. If the double doesn't come, then he scores. Sometimes the double does come, and he scores.

Obviously if double and triple teams are the reason that Stokes is missing more shots than Tarik per possession, then Stokes is lagging behind in understanding when he needs to pass the ball out.

I've watched Stokes play 80% of his college games, and I've watched tarik play 90%. I know the differences between the two, and a lot of Jarnell's assist numbers come from getting the ball in the high post. Memphis doesn't need to get Tarik the ball in the high post.

 

[BadJerry20]

If you think Tarik is our 4th option, then you haven't watched us play.

Ball goes in to Tarik almost every time down the floor, if the double comes he passes out of it and the ball continues around the perimeter. If the double doesn't come, then he scores. Sometimes the double does come, and he scores.

Obviously if double and triple teams are the reason that Stokes is missing more shots than Tarik per possession, then Stokes is lagging behind in understanding when he needs to pass the ball out.

I've watched Stokes play 80% of his college games, and I've watched tarik play 90%. I know the differences between the two, and a lot of Jarnell's assist numbers come from getting the ball in the high post. Memphis doesn't need to get Tarik the ball in the high post.

It goes in to him almost every possession and he averages 10.5 pts per game? You stated before it's 2pts and usually a foul if he gets it 7ft or less? And he doesn't get it in the high post. This makes perfect sense.

Edit: if you need a bucket who gets the ball? 1-5 options. Assuming black isn't sitting on the bench due to foul trouble.

 

[MemphisCanes]

It goes in to him almost every possession and he averages 10.5 pts per game? You stated before it's 2pts and usually a foul if he gets it 7ft or less? And he doesn't get it in the high post. This makes perfect sense.

Edit: if you need a bucket who gets the ball? 1-5 options. Assuming black isn't sitting on the bench due to foul trouble.

Again... Watch. The. Games.

How often does our offense really set up in the half court?

When we do, and Black is in, he's usually the first recipient of an entry pass.

 

[BadJerry20]

Again... Watch. The. Games.

How often does our offense really set up in the half court?

When we do, and Black is in, he's usually the first recipient of an entry pass.

Your attempts to talk down at people is hilarious. I've figured out that's your way of saying your wrong. Your logic isn't logical. Per you. It's 2 pts if he gets it inside 7ft and usually a foul. Hyperbole btw on your part. Yet he averages 10.5 pts so that would mean he gets it no more than 3-5 times a game in this range. Yet the ball usually goes inside to him in the half court game. Makes no sense.

 

[BadJerry20]

Dude shot 70% from the field last year. He's not the best ebounder in the world, but Jarnell isn't the best defender in the world. Doesn't mean both aren't great ball players. The difference in numbers is because Tarik has Jackson, Thomas, Goodwin and Johnson on his team. Stokes has Golden and..... no one else of real note.

Again, I hope he's good to go on January 4th.

So one second he has 4 other guys that's why he doesn't score as much, but then he gets the entry pass usually in the half court game? Cant have it both ways. And this aids my argument that's Stokes draws a lot more attention from opposing teams, thus hindering his efficiency. so thanks.

 

[MemphisCanes]

Your attempts to talk down at people is hilarious. I've figured out that's your way of saying your wrong. Your logic isn't logical. Per you. It's 2 pts if he gets it inside 7ft and usually a foul. Hyperbole btw on your part. Yet he averages 10.5 pts so that would mean he gets it no more than 3-5 times a game in this range. Yet the ball usually goes inside to him in the half court game. Makes no sense.

Yes, that was hyperbole. I didn't expect it to take multiple posts to sink in, but good job none the less.

 

[BadJerry20]

Yes, that was hyperbole. I didn't expect it to take multiple posts to sink in, but good job none the less.

Way to prove my point. And I realized it when you first post it, which is why I referenced it multiple times. Obviously you are not intelligent enough to pick up on a subtle dig. Next time I'll just say it outright so I don't waste time. I was trying not to be a d*ck and just call you on it. But your perpetual arrogance made me lower myself to your level. Next time don't contradict yourself when talking to various posters.

Edit: my reference to you proving my point, is you trying to insult a posters intelligence when you are wrong. Sorry I realized I didn't spell it out initially.

 

[BadJerry20]

I want to apologize to the other posters on here, for 2 pages of arguing. I generally stay away from this stuff, and in particular this poster. Cause I know how he operates. I won't waste everyone's time again, I'm actually annoyed at myself that I got sucked in to this pointless conversation.

 

[BadJerry20]

I just finished watching the game, and I will say this. I really picked the wrong day to argue Stokes offensive skill set. Lol

 

[MemphisCanes]

I just finished watching the game, and I will say this. I really picked the wrong day to argue Stokes offensive skill set. Lol

I wasn't going to say anything. He really didn't get much of a shot on offense, so it wasn't on him. He could've picked up more offensive rebounds, but this one was on the guards and the staff for not prepping for a better way to attack a zone.

 

[Chris4Vols22]

I wasn't going to say anything. He really didn't get much of a shot on offense, so it wasn't on him. He could've picked up more offensive rebounds, but this one was on the guards and the staff for not prepping for a better way to attack a zone.

Yeah we kept turning the ball over trying to get it to him. Don't get me wrong, he was a bit mediocre when he did get the touches.

But he did have a couple great moves.

 

[BadJerry20]

I wasn't going to say anything. He really didn't get much of a shot on offense, so it wasn't on him. He could've picked up more offensive rebounds, but this one was on the guards and the staff for not prepping for a better way to attack a zone.

Honestly it's a little disheartening that we had problems with the zone last year, and we still look lost on how to attack it. Stokes didn't look bad. But there were points were if he didn't get it in the post, he would just stand there looking as confused as the rest of the team. He's gotta stop trying to dribble when the double team comes too. I don't know why the staff has not taught these guys how to attack a zone yet, the pass it around the perimeter approach doesn't work.

 

[luvmuscle77]

Honestly it's a little disheartening that we had problems with the zone last year, and we still look lost on how to attack it. Stokes didn't look bad. But there were points were if he didn't get it in the post, he would just stand there looking as confused as the rest of the team. He's gotta stop trying to dribble when the double team comes too. I don't know why the staff has not taught these guys how to attack a zone yet, the pass it around the perimeter approach doesn't work.

I believe Cuanzo has stated that he does not know the specifics of zone.