Abortion

[therealUT]

That seems obvious by any rational, moral, or scientific definition of the term "human".

It is the ending of an innocent life. Two key words: Innocent, the unborn human has done nothing to deserve death. Life, again by any rational definition the unborn baby is alive... it has metabolism and unique DNA.



Now we are departing from the arbitrary choice to end the life to avoid responsibility and entering what some might believe to be a justified killing. This is an extraordinarily difficult question. I would say that even if it were acceptable... there should be a time limit. The only circumstance in which a child should be aborted after the first trimester is if the mother's life is endangered.

My basic answer is let's outlaw the 98% plus of abortions done when rape, incest, or life of the mother are not a factor... then try to hash out something on the 2%.

I would start by making rape a capital crime with equivalent penalties to murder. So regardless of what we decided about the life of the unborn child... the stepfather should get the chair.

I disagree with 1 and 2, but I respect answer 3 from your premises.
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[bamawriter]

That seems obvious by any rational, moral, or scientific definition of the term "human".

This.

A fertilized egg may be nothing more than a group of cells, but it is certainly human. It's not like there is a chance that it will be a goat, or a tree.

 

[sjt18]

If it is not "human" then what else might it be? If it is not yet human then what scientifically or medically changes somewhere along the way in its DNA that causes it to become human. As you go back towards conception... at what exact point does it cease to be anything BUT human?

 

[sjt18]

I disagree with 1 and 2, but I respect answer 3 from your premises.
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So this unborn child did something to make it guilty and worthy of a death sentence? I am confused by that answer.

What is "human" if having human DNA and a fully normal human metabolism is not "human"?

What rule can you apply that isn't completely arbitrary and for the selfish convenience of borned people?

Does location matter when determining humanity?

Does degree of dependency matter when determining humanity?

Does level of maturity matter when determining humanity?

Does the degree that a person is inconvenient, expensive, or burdensome to others matter when determining humanity?

 

[zjcvols]

I believe there are only two instances when abortion is okay:

1) When you are raped

2) When the mother's life is at risk.

The problem is if you make abortion illegal (like Mississippi is doing right now), then every person that doesn't want a baby is going to scream "RAPE!!!" to get an abortion, and now you have open up a can of worms.

 

[utvolpj]

I would be civil. Mostly because I'm not arrogant enough to claim to know when life begins.

I don't have an issue talking about it since I've learned a bunch about the whole process. My son that was just born 2wks ago was the 4th pregnancy my wife had in the last 2 years of trying. She has balanced translocation and it doesn't affect her but will when she tries to reproduce. My son also has it but is fine in every other way. The other three were 1) chemical pregnancy- happens to women and they just don't know it. We just happened to be trying so the test came back positive 2) unbalanced translocation- could have caused a multitude of issues but the preg ended naturally by about 9wks 3) Trisomy 18- just a freak thing but after reading about it and talking to the genetic counselor there was no way we would allow him to be born suffering from that.

On our last one we had every test imaginable done (including a CVS test which could have caused another miscarriage) and they found nothing. We had been working with the genetic counselor so we knew what things we were ready to take on and what we would not allow. Something like Downs would have been ok with us but if the lifespan was less than a year and the child would be in constant pain then we would have aborted.

Like I've said in this thread, I know my limits now but did not really until faced directly with them. I feel everyone should have the same rights I did in the process

 

[sjt18]

I believe there are only two instances when abortion is okay:

1) When you are raped

2) When the mother's life is at risk.

The problem is if you make abortion illegal (like Mississippi is doing right now), then every person that doesn't want a baby is going to scream "RAPE!!!" to get an abortion, and now you have open up a can of worms.

These laws existed and worked prior to Roe v Wade.

One possibility would be to require the woman to report right away even if she did not name or know her attacker. If the rape is not reported then that should count against the credible claim for an exception to abort.

It might get a little complicated but would be worthwhile and manageable.

FWIW, a "rational" position IMO is one that does not assume that life functions will develop. While I tend to believe that life begins at conception, we take people off life support who cannot sustain a heartbeat or who have no or limited brain activity.

Allowing for abortion up to the first heartbeat or regular brainwave is a possible "compromise" that could be enforced while providing plenty of room to handle cases of "rape and incest".

Another possible compromise would be more restrictive but more rational. Allow one week from conception. That is roughly the point where cell specialization begins to occur. About 1/6 of all pregnancies will end during this time period anyway.

 

[KiffinKiller]

I don't have an issue talking about it since I've learned a bunch about the whole process. My son that was just born 2wks ago was the 4th pregnancy my wife had in the last 2 years of trying. She has balanced translocation and it doesn't affect her but will when she tries to reproduce. My son also has it but is fine in every other way. The other three were 1) chemical pregnancy- happens to women and they just don't know it. We just happened to be trying so the test came back positive 2) unbalanced translocation- could have caused a multitude of issues but the preg ended naturally by about 9wks 3) Trisomy 18- just a freak thing but after reading about it and talking to the genetic counselor there was no way we would allow him to be born suffering from that.

On our last one we had every test imaginable done (including a CVS test which could have caused another miscarriage) and they found nothing. We had been working with the genetic counselor so we knew what things we were ready to take on and what we would not allow. Something like Downs would have been ok with us but if the lifespan was less than a year and the child would be in constant pain then we would have aborted.

Like I've said in this thread, I know my limits now but did not really until faced directly with them. I feel everyone should have the same rights I did in the process

Thanks for the reply. I haven't really had to deal with anything approaching this...Not sure what I would have done differently in your situation.

What is balanced translocation, btw?

 

[utvolpj]

Thanks for the reply. I haven't really had to deal with anything approaching this...Not sure what I would have done differently in your situation.

What is balanced translocation, btw?

it means all the genetic material is there but a piece of 2 chromosomes is switched. Can't remember the wife's numbers but an example is a small piece of #11 is translocated onto the #15 and vice versa. Doesn't cause an issue to the carrier but can once you start mixing genetic material to form a child. When it gets unbalanced and the pieces don't line up is when the problems can arrise

 

[KiffinKiller]

it means all the genetic material is there but a piece of 2 chromosomes is switched. Can't remember the wife's numbers but an example is a small piece of #11 is translocated onto the #15 and vice versa. Doesn't cause an issue to the carrier but can once you start mixing genetic material to form a child. When it gets unbalanced and the pieces don't line up is when the problems can arrise

so the carrier's off spring will inevitably be more prone to genetic mutation?

 

[zjcvols]

These laws existed and worked prior to Roe v Wade.

One possibility would be to require the woman to report right away even if she did not name or know her attacker. If the rape is not reported then that should count against the credible claim for an exception to abort.

It might get a little complicated but would be worthwhile and manageable.

FWIW, a "rational" position IMO is one that does not assume that life functions will develop. While I tend to believe that life begins at conception, we take people off life support who cannot sustain a heartbeat or who have no or limited brain activity.

Allowing for abortion up to the first heartbeat or regular brainwave is a possible "compromise" that could be enforced while providing plenty of room to handle cases of "rape and incest".

Another possible compromise would be more restrictive but more rational. Allow one week from conception. That is roughly the point where cell specialization begins to occur. About 1/6 of all pregnancies will end during this time period anyway.

While I like that idea, 60% of rapes go unreported. I don't know how much that would work or what would happen and what not.

I agree. There needs to be something done IMO. 50 million potential people have been killed, and not all those are for "legitimate" reasons.

 

[utvolpj]

so there carrier's off spring will inevitably be more prone to genetic mutation?

can be but he didn't have to be. There was a chance (again can't remember the % but it's in our papers at home) he would be born without the translocation at all. It was actually really interesting (at least it is now) to see the chromosomes mapped out and see the pieces switched. Had we both been BT carriers then we likely couldn't have reproduced naturally.

Funny thing is we went in to see a fertility Dr about our options and 2 days later she found out she was pregnant with our son. Never had to spend the big bucks to make it happen

 

[PKT_VOL]

so the carrier's off spring will inevitably be more prone to genetic mutation?

Yes. Meiosis creates a 50/50 chance of the host gametes (eggs) being unbalanced (which causes various mutations).

 

[KiffinKiller]

Interesting. I know I heard a statistic the other day about 1 in 110 children are born with some form of austism.

 

[n_huffhines]

can be but he didn't have to be. There was a chance (again can't remember the % but it's in our papers at home) he would be born without the translocation at all. It was actually really interesting (at least it is now) to see the chromosomes mapped out and see the pieces switched. Had we both been BT carriers then we likely couldn't have reproduced naturally.

Funny thing is we went in to see a fertility Dr about our options and 2 days later she found out she was pregnant with our son. Never had to spend the big bucks to make it happen

My wife nannied a family that couldn't get pregnant and they finalized an adoption of a Micronesian girl just a couple weeks before they found out the Mom was pregnant. The kids are like 6 months apart.

 

[utvolpj]

My wife nannied a family that couldn't get pregnant and they finalized an adoption of a Micronesian girl just a couple weeks before they found out the Mom was pregnant. The kids are like 6 months apart.

they said it's not uncommon because the woman can relax once other things happen

 

[PKT_VOL]

Interesting. I know I heard a statistic the other day about 1 in 110 children are born with some form of austism.

Yeah. In PJ's case, once you consider the meiosis of his gametes, along with all the natural chances of random recombination, the potential combinations get exhausting. Therefore, the percentages of different genetic outcomes of their child get quite murky (not easy numbers like 50/50). I just tried to keep in simple for non bio-people.

Autism is still a great mystery. We have a hard time diagnosing autism, let alone trying to figure out an exact cause.

 

[KiffinKiller]

Yeah. In PJ's case, once you consider the meiosis of his gametes, along with all the natural chances of random recombination, the potential combinations get exhausting. Therefore, the percentages of different genetic outcomes of their child get quite murky (not easy numbers like 50/50). I just tried to keep in simple for non bio-people.

Autism is still a great mystery. We have a hard time diagnosing autism, let alone trying to figure out an exact cause.

ya. I think that's why they are pretty vague with the type of autism - because the degrees can vary so wildly. I've met someone who cannot function on their own and I've someone who is a high functioning introvert.

 

[Orangeslice13]

Yeah. In PJ's case, once you consider the meiosis of his gametes, along with all the natural chances of random recombination, the potential combinations get exhausting. Therefore, the percentages of different genetic outcomes of their child get quite murky (not easy numbers like 50/50). I just tried to keep in simple for non bio-people.

Autism is still a great mystery. We have a hard time diagnosing autism, let alone trying to figure out an exact cause.

My oldest son has aspergers. Which is a form of autism. We were told he would only have one friend never be athletic and always be different. The 2nd Dr said the same. I decided to support whatever he decided to do, be honest about his condition, and force him to excercise. Well he drs couldn't be more wrong. He has a large group of friends. Plays football. And appears normal to outsiders. I think the key in his case was the honesty. He has to work hard at social activity and sports but he says its the working out that keeps his mind right.
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[PKT_VOL]

ya. I think that's why they are pretty vague with the type of autism - because the degrees can vary so wildly. I've met someone who cannot function on their own and I've someone who is a high functioning introvert.

Some of the smartest people on the planet are autistic. And we only know that from those who are somewhat able to communicate with the outside world. Its kinda scary to think about how intelligent a person might be with no way to convey that knowledge to other people.

 

[KiffinKiller]

Some of the smartest people on the planet are autistic. And we only know that from those who are somewhat able to communicate with the outside world. Its kinda scary to think about how intelligent a person might be with no way to convey that knowledge to other people.

yep. what's that movie? Mercury something with Willis.

 

[MystifyingVol]

I tend to favor this argument against abortion. The unborn differ from the newborn in four ways that have disqualified them as persons:

1. Size or Physical Appearance (the unborn doesn’t look like a person) – Do humans lose value when they don’t look right? Does size equal value? Men are generally larger than women. Does that mean men are more human than women? Shaquille O’Neil is larger than Hillary Clinton. Does that mean Hillary Clinton is less human than Shaq? The term used to describe the destruction of groups of people based on their physical appearance is ethnic cleansing or genocide. But human value transcends physical appearance. Therefore, “not looking right” cannot disqualify a human being from being valuable.

2. Level of Development (the unborn doesn’t have the same abilities as real persons) – Is a person’s value defined by his abilities, by what he can or can’t do? Do we forfeit our rights as human persons because we don’t have the capabilities others have? Do stronger, more capable, more intelligent people have more rights than others? Do human beings become disposable simply because at their level of development they are helpless, defenseless, and dependent? Human value transcends abilities or the lack of abilities. Therefore, missing abilities cannot disqualify human value.

3. Environment (the unborn isn’t located in the right place as real persons. This is implicit in abortion laws) – Do humans forfeit their worth when they change locations? Baby Rachel was born prematurely at 24 weeks. She weighed only 1 lb. 9 oz., but dropped to just under 1 lb. soon after. She was so small she could rest in the palm of her daddy’s hand. She was a tiny, living, person. Heroic measures were taken to save her life. If a doctor had killed Rachel we would have recoiled in horror. However, if this same little girl was inches away from the outside world, resting inside her mother’s womb, she could be legally killed by abortion. Clearly, one’s environment can’t be the deciding factor. Changing locations is morally trivial. Environment has no bearing on who we are.

4. Degree of Dependency (the unborn is too physically dependent on others to be a person; he is not viable and can’t survive outside the womb) – Is human value determined by our degree of dependency on others? The unborn’s dependency on his mother for sustenance is irrelevant to the baby’s value. No baby is “viable” if degree of dependency matters. All babies need their mothers for feeding whether via blood (an umbilical cord), breast, or bottle. Human beings may be dependent on others for their survival, but they aren’t dependent on others for their value. All physically dependent people are at risk if degree of dependency determines their value – those dependent on kidney machines, pacemakers, and insulin would have to be declared non-persons. Dependency does not determine worth.

 

[PKT_VOL]

My oldest son has aspergers. Which is a form of autism. We were told he would only have one friend never be athletic and always be different. The 2nd Dr said the same. I decided to support whatever he decided to do, be honest about his condition, and force him to excercise. Well he drs couldn't be more wrong. He has a large group of friends. Plays football. And appears normal to outsiders. I think the key in his case was the honesty. He has to work hard at social activity and sports but he says its the working out that keeps his mind right.
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Wow. That's amazing. I am really proud of you and your son. :hi:

I have only worn one piece of jewelry in my life being a rubber bracelet which reads "laughter is the best medicine." I am constantly amazed how little homage is given by society to keep their mind right. The human mind is more powerful than most people realize. Everyday, we are scientifically proving that phrase "mind over matter" is unequivocally true. A healthy mind (or as some religious people call it "soul") can help cure a sick body; conversely, a sick mind can corrupt an otherwise healthy body.

 

[PKT_VOL]

yep. what's that movie? Mercury something with Willis.

Not a clue. Far from a movie buff.

 

[KiffinKiller]

Wow. That's amazing. I am really proud of you and your son. :hi:

I have only worn one piece of jewelry in my life being a rubber bracelet which reads "laughter is the best medicine." I am constantly amazed how little homage is given by society to keep their mind right. The human mind is more powerful than most people realize. Everyday, we are scientifically proving that phrase "mind over matter" is unequivocally true. A healthy mind (or as some religious people call it "soul") can help cure a sick body; conversely, a sick mind can corrupt an otherwise healthy body.

Yep. First hand knowledge. History of depression in my family. Dangerous disease.