Abortions Rights Win (Again)

[hog88]

Those aren’t term limits

Yes they are, we get a chance to limit terms every 2 and 6 years.

Now if you really wanted to do some good, repeal the 17th amendment.

 

[NurseGoodVol]

It's almost like when the matter is put directly to the voters, they want women to have choice. Abortion rights are undefeated when actually put to a vote by the citizenry. All three wins in very red states (Kansas, Ohio, and Kentucky). And it's not even going to be close in Ohio.

And the eugenists smile.

 

[825VOL]

I see it, I just don't think it will stand for long nor work.

Imagine, a citizen of Indiana (a fetus) being killed in Ohio and Indiana having no recourse. At some point this becomes a state vs state issue if Indiana tries to charge a physician with killing a "state citizen" while Ohio insists it was a medical procedure with no citizen involved.

Eventually, these things have to hit the Supreme Court. It can't abide that the states can't agree on who is a human and who is not.

Actually, this is exactly the way it was designed. States were and are still allowed to be different.

One of the worst things to happen to this country was the 17th amendment. Americans no longer understand that the original design was for States to have their say in all most matters. People have now forgotten that each state was supposed to be a reflection of its citizens, not a reflection of D.C.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

If two Indiana residents go to Ohio and one murders the other while in Ohio, Indiana has no recourse.

Ohio has laws against murder of humans. It sounds like you're arguing that it's okay for Ohio to decide citizens of Indiana, may or may not, be human.

Again, I don't think this can stand up very long. It didn't work in the 1800s well.

I see it. I'm just certain it's not sensible.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

We already do that with tons of laws. This was already pointed out to you. See guns.

Yes, but the basic humanity or person hood of an individual is different even than the right to bear. (And NY or any other state should never infringe, BTW.)

When you deny the actual existence of a person as human, it's an extremely distasteful human rights issue. It brings to mind a slope I dislike that was seen in pre-WWII Germany or as we see in ME countries which regard non-Islam humans as no more than bad dogs to be killed.

It's an ugly look for America.

 

[825VOL]

Ohio has laws against murder of humans. It sounds like you're arguing that it's okay for Ohio to decide citizens of Indiana, may or may not, be human.

Again, I don't think this can stand up very long. It didn't work in the 1800s well.

I see it. I'm just certain it's not sensible.

You keep trying to equate this to the issue of slavery. That is an apples and oranges comparison. The 13th, 14th, & 15th amendments (known as the reconstruction amendments) codified the rights of all citizens. The unborn are not citizens according to the constitution. It is not a comparison that one can make.

 

[hog88]

Ohio has laws against murder of humans. It sounds like you're arguing that it's okay for Ohio to decide citizens of Indiana, may or may not, be human.

Again, I don't think this can stand up very long. It didn't work in the 1800s well.

I see it. I'm just certain it's not sensible.

 

[volfanhill]

Yes, but the basic humanity or person hood of an individual is different even than the right to bear. (And NY or any other state should never infringe, BTW.)

When you deny the actual existence of a person as human, it's an extremely distasteful human rights issue. It brings to mind a slope I dislike that was seen in pre-WWII Germany or as we see in ME countries which regard non-Islam humans as no more than bad dogs to be killed.

It's an ugly look for America.

I will say again that you need a civics class in the worst way possible

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

You keep trying to equate this to the issue of slavery. That is an apples and oranges comparison. The 13th, 14th, & 15th amendments (known as the reconstruction amendments) codified the rights of all citizens. The unborn are not citizens according to the constitution. It is not a comparison that one can make.

I believe it is, however, similar in morality. Black people were not considered citizens in America, in general, prior to the 13th Amendment. Even when freed, they weren't really called citizens legally.

It's extremely similar, isn't it, that a fetus is being thought of as a citizen in Indiana but not of Ohio?

It's simply sad to think that the definition of alive and human is as backward now as it was in the 1800s.

 

[825VOL]

I believe it is, however, similar in morality. Black people were not considered citizens in America, in general, prior to the 13th Amendment. Even when freed, they weren't really called citizens legally.

It's extremely similar, isn't it, that a fetus is being thought of as a citizen in Indiana but not of Ohio?

It's simply sad to think that the definition of alive and human is as backward now as it was in the 1800s.

While I do applaud your passion on the issue, you are wrong on how you base your arguments.

Your personal beliefs on when a fetus is alive has nothing to do with the 14th amendment nor does it have anything to do with the 13th amendment that outlawed slavery. You are trying to use those to make a case for your point of view, but that argument does not have merit.

I was just trying to get you to understand the flaws in your arguments.

 

[Gandalf]

Childish tantrums.

I fully support the people of Oregon, and Mississippi, deciding for themselves what abortion choice will look like in their own states.

And here’s the truly beautiful part - we should end up with an entire range of choice scenarios between Oregon & Mississippi. Sounds awful…

Thats exactly where I am at. I am very much pro-life and believe that it is self evident that abortion is the termination of an innocent human life. There are cases where life termination is unavoidable or a choice that must be made. It other cases, it should be unlawful.

I also believe in the constitution and that the decision of whether a termination of life is lawful or not is not a federal matter but left up to each state, whose elected representatives or even the people themselves in referendum can best decide.

I do not agree with the decison Ohio voters made, firmly believe that the wrath of God will be against them for their collective choice.

That said, I fully agree with and support their right to make that decision under the US constitution and wish for each state's people to make their own decisions and then stand for them.

 

[lawgator1]

People clamoring for a federal ban on abortion are dumb as Biden voters.

I'll be reminding you of this statement in the not too distant future.

 

[hog88]

I'll be reminding you of this statement in the not too distant future.

Please, be my guest.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

While I do applaud your passion on the issue, you are wrong on how you base your arguments.

Your personal beliefs on when a fetus is alive has nothing to do with the 14th amendment nor does it have anything to do with the 13th amendment that outlawed slavery. You are trying to use those to make a case for your point of view, but that argument does not have merit.

I was just trying to get you to understand the flaws in your arguments.

I appreciate the insights. It's disheartening to me because I believe in America as a moral beacon for the world not because of its government but because of its people. I'm disappointed more and more every year.

I don't think Dobbs went far enough, but I'm probably not alone in that. I hate the thought that America won't protect those without a voice who I feel are at risk before and after birth (because as someone mentioned, we've already lost a huge piece of the battle if abortion was ever a consideration by the Mom or Dad.)

I'm a physically big man, often scary to little kids who don't know me, and I try my best to look out for them (mainly not to trip over them these days) and show them love in a world where stranger danger is a real thing........but also sometimes even their own Mom may wish they had been killed before birth.

 

[McDad]

I haven't read through the whole thread.

It is a good thing the states have made their decisions. Which is where the issue should be decided. I hope all the folks who went apoplectic with predictions of what de centralizing the right to abort would mean for the country are on their apology tour for fear mongering. Lastly, I hope to see state initiatives giving a father the right to abort his financial responsibility brought to a state vote. Would also like to see initiatives giving full right to women... their body their choice (prostitution, drug use, selling organs, etc)... brought to a vote.

 

[825VOL]

I appreciate the insights. It's disheartening to me because I believe in America as a moral beacon for the world not because of its government but because of its people. I'm disappointed more and more every year.

I don't think Dobbs went far enough, but I'm probably not alone in that. I hate the thought that America won't protect those without a voice who I feel are at risk before and after birth (because as someone mentioned, we've already lost a huge piece of the battle if abortion was ever a consideration by the Mom or Dad.)

I'm a physically big man, often scary to little kids who don't know me, and I try my best to look out for them (mainly not to trip over them these days) and show them love in a world where stranger danger is a real thing........but also sometimes even their own Mom may wish they had been killed before birth.

Again, I applaud your passion and your ability to argue on here without name calling. My intent was never to change your mind on the topic, only to educate you on why the basis for your arguments were wrong.

I teach Civics for a living, and I wish my students could learn and understand as quickly as you did today.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Again, I applaud your passion and your ability to argue on here without name calling. My intent was never to change your mind on the topic, only to educate you on why the basis for your arguments were wrong.

I teach Civics for a living, and I wish my students could learn and understand as quickly as you did today.

I still have an attention span, unlike the younger generation, and I appreciate your effort with me.

I tend to try to think of ways that will help the next generation as mine seems to have spent the country into debt we'll never be able to pay and lost our leadership OF the govt instead of BY the govt.

As for the insults, it's what some people do here. I try to keep it to a minimum and ignore it.

 

[Vol8188]

It boils down to: if you don’t want to have an abortion, don’t have an abortion… but don’t try to legislate your beliefs onto everyone else who clearly don’t see it the same way. This is obviously how the majority of Americans feel.

So just to be clear you see any limit on abortions as invalid because you’d be forcing your beliefs on others? So 39 weeks, as the kids crowning, ice pick to the back of the head?

Or can we both agree there should be a line?

 

[Gladiator1]

I believe it is, however, similar in morality. Black people were not considered citizens in America, in general, prior to the 13th Amendment. Even when freed, they weren't really called citizens legally.

It's extremely similar, isn't it, that a fetus is being thought of as a citizen in Indiana but not of Ohio?

It's simply sad to think that the definition of alive and human is as backward now as it was in the 1800s.

So I will probably have to pay reparations for the the death of others in the future. There goes retirement.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

So I will probably have to pay reparations for the the death of others in the future. There goes retirement.

It's a long line for reparations, especially if all the Native Americans belly up to the table too.

Their claims should be first in line and include quite a bit of land value in addition to whatever "pain and suffering." The big winners will always be the attorneys so send your kids to law school.

 

[85SugarVol]

I haven't read through the whole thread.

It is a good thing the states have made their decisions. Which is where the issue should be decided. I hope all the folks who went apoplectic with predictions of what de centralizing the right to abort would mean for the country are on their apology tour for fear mongering. Lastly, I hope to see state initiatives giving a father the right to abort his financial responsibility brought to a state vote. Would also like to see initiatives giving full right to women... their body their choice (prostitution, drug use, selling organs, etc)... brought to a vote.

Full bodily autonomy for every legal adult in America. Full stop.

 

[sonofUT62]

No, it doesn't. The creeps took away a longtime federal right. The views of Republicans and christian crazies on abortion have always been in the minority--they are not shared by most Americans. But this is true of most GOP/crazy christian views.

You made a post the other day in the football forum. It was coherent and contained zero name calling. I had to look twice to make sure that I was right about who the poster was. Perhaps politics just isn’t for you.

 

[Volfan8282]

Full bodily autonomy for every legal adult in America. Full stop.

What happens when one person’s full bodily autonomy infringes on another person? That’s the crux of all of this. And that’s the divide. I’m with you if we’re talking about a mole removal.

 

[85SugarVol]

Thats exactly where I am at. I am very much pro-life and believe that it is self evident that abortion is the termination of an innocent human life. There are cases where life termination is unavoidable or a choice that must be made. It other cases, it should be unlawful.

I also believe in the constitution and that the decision of whether a termination of life is lawful or not is not a federal matter but left up to each state, whose elected representatives or even the people themselves in referendum can best decide.

I do not agree with the decison Ohio voters made, firmly believe that the wrath of God will be against them for their collective choice.

That said, I fully agree with and support their right to make that decision under the US constitution and wish for each state's people to make their own decisions and then stand for them.

I am very much pro-choice. Not because I find the practice appealing in any way - it is ugly.

But I do see it as a choice before the mother. And I am an ardent advocate of bodily autonomy for all of us (pregnant women included).

The laws belong at the state level, and I’m glad that’s where we are now. I was opposed to Roe, and I will loudly argue against any proposed bans that returns it to the federal level.

 

[85SugarVol]

What happens when one person’s full bodily autonomy infringes on another person? That’s the crux of all of this. And that’s the divide. I’m with you if we’re talking about a mole removal.

That just leads down the rabbit hole.