Appropriate punishment or not?

#127
#127
McDad said:
I don't think we are having a semantic difference.

Life isn't equal under our laws. It may be equal in the theoretical ideals behind the legal decisions but it isn't in application.
Method of death is also considered during punishment. Dunkin man assaulted intentionally. But killed accidentally. There was no opportunity to reconsider the situation once the punch landed. Chauvin / Floyd could be considered accidental too but there were hundreds of seconds where Chauvin could have reconsider his actions.

Different situations = different sentences.
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The post indicates we are.

You're taking equal value of life to mean identical or equal sentencing outcome, which I'm not saying. But equality in law means we start with a equal basis; if I didn't take your life in self defense or accidentally, I'm most likely looking at murder or manslaughter. If I identically & opportunistically killed you and the Sikh guy down the road in manner fitting the legal basis for Murder 1 and it carries a minimum 20 years, you and the Sikh lives are valued equally. That's what our law is based on.

If I tortured you for days by reciting every post @BowlBrother85 has ever made here, then snuffed you, I'll have additional hate crime penalties applied. The basis (value of your life) didn't change, the heinous nature of my recital incurred additional penalty.

A deliberate attack that kills an old guy yelling a racial epithet whose penalty is 2 years house arrest, has completely eliminated the basis of justice when a non-deliberate act that cannot be determined to have caused death is deemed murder 2 and manslaughter.

It isn't a question of different situation and different outcome, but an outcome so disparate that one or both are injustices. If Chauvin committed murder and manslaughter, Dunkin at very least committed manslaughter and should go to prison.
 
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#129
#129
Vol8188 said:
Are you proclaiming the use of the N-word justifies violence?

Given this and the Kyle Rittenhouse situation would you say both were justified in their use of violence, neither were justified, or 1 of them specifically was justified?

It's seen as so important that the vast majority of people won't even type it.
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I don’t understand your last sentence
 
#130
#130
tvolsfan said:
As far as I can tell, he punched the guy in the jaw once. It seems incredibly fluky that the guy actually died. I admittedly have no idea if manslaughter would normally stick in this sort of situation.
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He punched an elderly person. If you hit your grandpa there’s a good chance you kill him
 
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#131
#131
85SugarVol said:
I don’t understand your last sentence
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If you go back to the post I was responding to, he stated the n word was not seen as important enough.

I’m stating that’s a tough argument to make given it’s the only word in the English language that the majority of people refuse to even type
 
#132
#132
Weezy said:
My two cents...neither of those two incidents rise to the level of confrontation that happened in this case. The guy was just working his Dunkin shift when some ******* barges in and calls him the N word. That is asking for it....and it matters to me, in a world where nobody wants to work, that this guy was just trying to do his crappy job.

Edit: the one guy had a minimum of three years.
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You're making excuses because you want assholes to pay a price for assholery; well, we all do. But once you move beyond words, people get fked up. For example, I don't intend to let someone toss fists at me and risk being maimed or killed; you put your life in my hands if you attack me.

Over words? GTFO of here.
 
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#133
#133
Vol8188 said:
If you go back to the post I was responding to, he stated the n word was not seen as important enough.

I’m stating that’s a tough argument to make given it’s the only word in the English language that the majority of people refuse to even type
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Ah. Got it.
 
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#134
#134
NashVol11 said:
Trump talks about punching protestors - “hell yeah!”
Woman annoys and talks **** to a guy at football game and her boyfriend/husband gets knocked out as a result - “hell yeah!”
Guy gets punched after verbally assaulting someone and using a racial slur repeatedly - “poor guy, I can’t stand these savage black people who can’t even act like humans or adults - they’re all like three-year-olds”

Lol
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You forgot the fact that he was almost 80. Are you claiming you support 20 year olds punching the elderly?
 
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#137
#137
Weezy said:
And I'm sure he regrets it. But he didn't shoot him. He punched him, and an unexpected result occured. Jail serves no purpose here.
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I disagree. I know most think of jail as "rehabilitation" now, but there's still a punishment for wrongdoing aspect. The Dunkin employee killed a man, even if inadvertently. House arrest and probation are not sufficient punishment IMO.

What would be the response if the old man's grandson hunted down the Dunkin employee and exacted revenge? We don't get to mete out our own justice, which is basically what the employee did.

I think a few years in jail would have been justified.
 
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#138
#138
NashVol11 said:
Trump talks about punching protestors - “hell yeah!”
Woman annoys and talks **** to a guy at football game and her boyfriend/husband gets knocked out as a result - “hell yeah!”
Guy gets punched after verbally assaulting someone and using a racial slur repeatedly - “poor guy, I can’t stand these savage black people who can’t even act like humans or adults - they’re all like three-year-olds”

Lol
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So, you're agreeing with Trump and rando football game guy knocking out someone over words they didn't like, or had a change of heart that Dunkin was wrong, too -?
 
#139
#139
NCFisher said:
The post indicates we are.

You're taking equal value of life to mean identical or equal sentencing outcome, which I'm not saying. But equality in law means we start with a equal basis; if I didn't take your life in self defense or accidentally, I'm most likely looking at murder or manslaughter. If I identically & opportunistically killed you and the Sikh guy down the road in manner fitting the legal basis for Murder 1 and it carries a minimum 20 years, you and the Sikh lives are valued equally. That's what our law is based on.

If I tortured you for days by reciting every post @BowlBrother85 has ever made here, then snuffed you, I'll have additional hate crime penalties applied. The basis (value of your life) didn't change, the heinous nature of my recital incurred additional penalty.

A deliberate attack that kills an old guy yelling a racial epithet whose penalty is 2 years house arrest, has completely eliminated the basis of justice when a non-deliberate act that cannot be determined to have caused death is deemed murder 2 and manslaughter.

It isn't a question of different situation and different outcome, but an outcome so disparate that one or both are injustices. If Chauvin committed murder and manslaughter, Dunkin at very least committed manslaughter and should go to prison.
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I understand better how we are approaching from different places. Thanks for patiently walking me through that.
We will have to agree to disagree that Chauvin and Dunkin man do not share enough similarities to warrant equal sentencing.
 
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#141
#141
Weezer said:
I disagree. I know most think of jail as "rehabilitation" now, but there's still a punishment for wrongdoing aspect. The Dunkin employee killed a man, even if inadvertently. House arrest and probation are not sufficient punishment IMO.

What would be the response if the old man's grandson hunted down the Dunkin employee and exacted revenge? We don't get to mete out our own justice, which is basically what the employee did.

I think a few years in jail would have been justified.
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Exactly, it’s punishment. The cop who accidentally shot a guy instead of tazing him isn’t going to be “rehabilitated” by prison either. But there’s she goes anyway. We have deemed prison ab appropriate punishment for crimes, even crimes that a person has committed only once and is unlikely to commit again in their lives.
 
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#142
#142
Weezer said:
I disagree. I know most think of jail as "rehabilitation" now, but there's still a punishment for wrongdoing aspect. The Dunkin employee killed a man, even if inadvertently. House arrest and probation are not sufficient punishment IMO.

What would be the response if the old man's grandson hunted down the Dunkin employee and exacted revenge? We don't get to mete out our own justice, which is basically what the employee did.

I think a few years in jail would have been justified.
Click to expand...

I'm just relieved to find Weezy's arguments are not Weezer's. I thought you'd changed avatar and went daft.
 
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#143
#143
McDad said:
Our legal system isn't built on the concept that all life is equally valuable. Nor is it built on the notion cause of death or intention of perpetrator is inconsequential to punishment.
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And you don't see that as a problem in a country built on the idea of equality?

Reminds me of Animal Farm.

R.9a4358dc8d573da8a16db7781a2fb28e
 
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#144
#144
Weezer said:
And you don't see that as a problem in a country built on the idea of equality?

Reminds me of Animal Farm.

R.9a4358dc8d573da8a16db7781a2fb28e
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We have equal rights to our life. I don't know if that means are lives are equal. Never thought about before, tbh.
 
#145
#145
NashVol11 said:
Trump talks about punching protestors - “hell yeah!”
Woman annoys and talks **** to a guy at football game and her boyfriend/husband gets knocked out as a result - “hell yeah!”
Guy gets punched after verbally assaulting someone and using a racial slur repeatedly - “poor guy, I can’t stand these savage black people who can’t even act like humans or adults - they’re all like three-year-olds”

Lol
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Disproportionate outcomes. In any of those situations, if death occurred, I'd expect a punishment. People love a good spectacle, but if that spectacle ends in death, something needs to occur. If the Dunkin employee had punhed the old man and simply knocked him down, I'd see your point. But he killed him. Even if inadvertent, that is an unacceptable outcome. Personally, race doesn't even factor in for me. I don't care what color each man was. And in the eyes of the law, it shouldn't matter. One man died as a result of the actions of another man. That calls for more than a slap on the wrist IMO.
 
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#146
#146
Weezer said:
I disagree. I know most think of jail as "rehabilitation" now, but there's still a punishment for wrongdoing aspect. The Dunkin employee killed a man, even if inadvertently. House arrest and probation are not sufficient punishment IMO.

What would be the response if the old man's grandson hunted down the Dunkin employee and exacted revenge? We don't get to mete out our own justice, which is basically what the employee did.

I think a few years in jail would have been justified.
Click to expand...

Thinking of jail and/or prison as rehabilitation sounds like the result of too many criminal justice classes. Those were some of the worst and most nonsensical courses I’ve ever sat through (I could probably qualify for a minor in the subject, sadly).

I’ve never seen any effective model for rehabilitation, nor am I convinced it’s possible to create such a model.
 
#147
#147
Weezer said:
And you don't see that as a problem in a country built on the idea of equality?

Reminds me of Animal Farm.

R.9a4358dc8d573da8a16db7781a2fb28e
Click to expand...

Bought that book for a 13 y.o. niece long ago. "What's it about?" she asked hopefully with anticipation.
"The Russian revolution and socialism" replaced her smile with a blank stare.
She called a week later raving about its utter awesomeness.
 
#148
#148
Weezer said:
Disproportionate outcomes. In any of those situations, if death occurred, I'd expect a punishment. People love a good spectacle, but if that spectacle ends in death, something needs to occur. If the Dunkin employee had punhed the old man and simply knocked him down, I'd see your point. But he killed him. Even if inadvertent, that is an unacceptable outcome. Personally, race doesn't even factor in for me. I don't care what color each man was. And in the eyes of the law, it shouldn't matter. One man died as a result of the actions of another man. That calls for more than a slap on the wrist IMO.
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Someone posted sentences of others who killed with a punch. Dunkin-Man's sentence isn't equivalent.
I wonder how many situations where intentional punches but unintentional deaths are punished similarly to Dunkin-Man?
 
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