Appropriate punishment or not?

#177
#177
Weezer said:
I would guess not many. I would think most cases where the outcome is death would result in some prison time.

But there is a problem in this country of disproportionate prison sentences for the same crimes. It's normally argued in the reverse order, where it is minorities receiving harsher sentences. The correction should be race not playing a role in sentencing, but sadly, many would support the idea of just reversing the racial roles where minorities get the lesser sentences. That's not equality, just more racism/bigotry. The color of one's skin should not be a factor when it comes to the law. Unfortunately, we have made it one in this country.
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If we go back a few decades when criminologists, and senators named Moynihan could talk frankly about such things (and today ONLY black economists named Williams and Sowell can talk about):
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"Blacks make up only 12 percent of the U.S. population but nearly half the prison population. This seemingly outrageous disparity has prompted allegations of racial discrimination. Steven Whitman, in an article on this page on May 28, concluded that blacks are in prison because of a racist society and criminal justice system. Such critics argue that blacks are over- arrested, selectively prosecuted and face stiffer sentencing than whites.

Blacks do constitute a disproportion of the prison population, but those statistics are not evidence of racism. Males and young people are also overrepresented in prison, but we do not assert discrimination because there are acceptable reasons for the differences--they commit more crime. A similar situation exists with blacks: Prisons are full of blacks because blacks are more likely to commit those crimes that get people into prisons.

Failure to openly acknowledge this fact does a great disservice to the public debate concerning this important topic, because it misdirects our attention toward the criminal justice system, and away from the real culprit, society at large, which bears the responsibility for creating social conditions that contribute to higher rates of serious crime in the black community.

Alfred Blumstein, at Carnegie-Mellon University, compared the percentage of blacks arrested for specific crimes with the percentage of blacks serving prison terms. His data showed that blacks were disproportionately arrested for the crimes that typically result in prison sentences (homicide, robbery, assault, burglary), and that this arrest differential largely accounted for the racial composition of the prison population. He concluded that if imprisonment rates exactly reflected arrest rates, blacks would constitute about 4 percent less than they do now of the prison population.

Further analysis of sentencing data suggests that the remaining 4 percent differential can be explained by the fact that black offenders tend to have more serious prior records and commit more aggravated crimes (in terms of victim injury and weapon use) than white offenders, factors which legitimately affect sentence severity.

But some argue that arrests are not valid indicators of crime. Not all crimes come to the attention of police, and many known crimes fail to result in arrest. If there is racial bias in either who reports crime or who the police choose to arrest, then analyzing arrests might mask racial discrimination.

Dr. Patrick Langan, with the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, compared the race of criminal offenders, as reported by their victims in the National Crime Survey, with the race of persons committed to prison. The National Crime Survey asked people about crimes they actually experienced, regardless of whether they reported them to the police. Thus, these crime victim reports were free from the bias that might be introduced if one looked only at official statistics.

Langan confirmed Blumstein`s findings: Patterns of imprisonment appear to closely reflect patterns of black criminality--whether measured by official arrests or victims` reports of their assailants` race. Taken together, this and other evidence suggest that the courts are making rather equitable sentencing decisions.

But the problem of blacks in prison cannot be easily dismissed. The rate of black imprisonment is almost 10 times the rate of white imprisonment. About one out of every five black men will spend some portion of their lives behind bars, compared with fewer than 5 percent of white males. And as states continue to pass mandatory prison terms for violent crime, it is likely that the number of blacks committed to prison will increase.

Racism in the criminal justice system is not the problem. In some ways, it would be easier if it were. We could hire more minority judges, institute procedures to curb judicial descretion and more closely monitor court proceedings. No, the problem is not so easily remedied; it is considerably more difficult and intractable.

Blacks, more so than whites, are locked in a vicious cycle of unemployment and poverty--the socioeconomic conditions that breed crime. And demographic trends (mobility, out-of-wedlock childbearing, etc.) appear to be reinforcing the black/white differences. As long as these conditions and trends continue, the prison population is likely to become even blacker.

These conditions--not a racist criminal justice system--cause high rates of black imprisonment. The need to seriously address the problems that contribute to black criminality in our society is becoming increasingly apparent."
BLACKS IN PRISON: IT`S NOT RACISM
 
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#178
#178
McDad said:
No. Not asking you to choose. Just trying to understand you better.

If I, hypothetically, mercy killed my father when he was suffering with Pancreatic cancer, I would be taking his life. His life has value. Should I be punished? Did I do wrong?
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We own our own life. Mine is mine alone to take or assign to another if they are willing to do me that act of love.
 
#179
#179
McDad said:
I see two critical differences between the events. Floyd was subdued via restraints. There was no need to continue to apply pressure to his neck area. Furthermore, 3 other officers were there to lend a hand even if Floyd became harmful to others. Secondly, the police have a higher standard because of their training and their legal lethality. Authorities, experts, and professionals who make mistakes are held to a higher standards than layman if harm or loss comes from at their hand..
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You left out how the media also crucified Chauvin
 
#180
#180
NCFisher said:
If we go back a few decades when criminologists, and senators named Moynihan could talk frankly about such things (and today ONLY black economists named Williams and Sowell can talk about):
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
"Blacks make up only 12 percent of the U.S. population but nearly half the prison population. This seemingly outrageous disparity has prompted allegations of racial discrimination. Steven Whitman, in an article on this page on May 28, concluded that blacks are in prison because of a racist society and criminal justice system. Such critics argue that blacks are over- arrested, selectively prosecuted and face stiffer sentencing than whites.

Blacks do constitute a disproportion of the prison population, but those statistics are not evidence of racism. Males and young people are also overrepresented in prison, but we do not assert discrimination because there are acceptable reasons for the differences--they commit more crime. A similar situation exists with blacks: Prisons are full of blacks because blacks are more likely to commit those crimes that get people into prisons.


Failure to openly acknowledge this fact does a great disservice to the public debate concerning this important topic, because it misdirects our attention toward the criminal justice system, and away from the real culprit, society at large, which bears the responsibility for creating social conditions that contribute to higher rates of serious crime in the black community.

Alfred Blumstein, at Carnegie-Mellon University, compared the percentage of blacks arrested for specific crimes with the percentage of blacks serving prison terms. His data showed that blacks were disproportionately arrested for the crimes that typically result in prison sentences (homicide, robbery, assault, burglary), and that this arrest differential largely accounted for the racial composition of the prison population. He concluded that if imprisonment rates exactly reflected arrest rates, blacks would constitute about 4 percent less than they do now of the prison population.


Further analysis of sentencing data suggests that the remaining 4 percent differential can be explained by the fact that black offenders tend to have more serious prior records and commit more aggravated crimes (in terms of victim injury and weapon use) than white offenders, factors which legitimately affect sentence severity.

But some argue that arrests are not valid indicators of crime. Not all crimes come to the attention of police, and many known crimes fail to result in arrest. If there is racial bias in either who reports crime or who the police choose to arrest, then analyzing arrests might mask racial


discrimination.

Dr. Patrick Langan, with the U.S. Bureau of Justice Statistics, compared the race of criminal offenders, as reported by their victims in the National Crime Survey, with the race of persons committed to prison. The National Crime Survey asked people about crimes they actually experienced, regardless of whether they reported them to the police. Thus, these crime victim reports were free from the bias that might be introduced if one looked only at official statistics.

Langan confirmed Blumstein`s findings: Patterns of imprisonment appear to closely reflect patterns of black criminality--whether measured by official arrests or victims` reports of their assailants` race. Taken together, this and other evidence suggest that the courts are making rather equitable sentencing decisions.

But the problem of blacks in prison cannot be easily dismissed. The rate of black imprisonment is almost 10 times the rate of white imprisonment. About one out of every five black men will spend some portion of their lives behind bars, compared with fewer than 5 percent of white males. And as states continue to pass mandatory prison terms for violent crime, it is likely that the number of blacks committed to prison will increase.

Racism in the criminal justice system is not the problem. In some ways, it would be easier if it were. We could hire more minority judges, institute procedures to curb judicial descretion and more closely monitor court proceedings. No, the problem is not so easily remedied; it is considerably more difficult and intractable.

Blacks, more so than whites, are locked in a vicious cycle of unemployment and poverty--the socioeconomic conditions that breed crime. And demographic trends (mobility, out-of-wedlock childbearing, etc.) appear to be reinforcing the black/white differences. As long as these conditions and trends continue, the prison population is likely to become even blacker.

These conditions--not a racist criminal justice system--cause high rates of black imprisonment. The need to seriously address the problems that contribute to black criminality in our society is becoming increasingly apparent."
BLACKS IN PRISON: IT`S NOT RACISM
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The number in prison isn't what was commented on. It was how in the past minority defendants have received harsher sentences for committing similar crimes. You mostly see it with drug sentences where a white defendant may get a slap on the wrist and a minority defendant gets a harsher sentence. Sentencing guidelines need to be more consistent and eliminate any racial biases, perceived or real.
 
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#181
#181
Is the use of the n-word by the guy confirmed, or is this a Myles Garrett situation?
 
#183
#183
Weezer said:
The number in prison isn't what was commented on. It was how in the past minority defendants have received harsher sentences for committing similar crimes. You mostly see it with drug sentences where a white defendant may get a slap on the wrist and a minority defendant gets a harsher sentence. Sentencing guidelines need to be more consistent and eliminate any racial biases, perceived or real.
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That doesn't change the argument. I can believe, logically, anything that can be demonstrated. Don't tell me "studies find disparate sentences for identical crimes except race..." and then not put it on the table. Show me the comparison cases in the same proximate jurisdictions that have identical arrest records and severity of offenses, similarly honored bail and parole terms, in neighborhoods with similar crime levels necessitating similar police presence, and I'll believe that data, but not less.
 
#184
#184
Weezer said:
I choose to believe the life of the homeless guy on the corner is just as valuable as the President of the United States. I expect many to disagree, but I just don't care. Life is valuable.
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Are you serious?
 
#189
#189
85SugarVol said:
Of course they have value.

But just because you believe all lives are equally valuable does not make it so.
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And just because you don't, doesn't make that so either. We all choose the value we put on anything, even life.
 
#190
#190
tvolsfan said:
10 years for punching someone is ridiculous.
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I'm not saying he should get 10 years but it isn't the punch he should be punished for.

To extrapolate that same line of thinking so you believe the sentence for shooting someone should be the same whether the victim lives or dies?
 
#192
#192
NCFisher said:
But isn't that misapplication of law, and sometimes even the Madoffs, Epsteins, Cosbys and O.J.s get what's coming? Like all things human, justice is perfect and equitable to the degree we establish that as its function and pursue it despite the blemishes.
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Only Madoff got what was coming out of that list.
 
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#195
#195
Weezer said:
Are you referring to financially? Because spiritually, I don't see how you can make that judgement.
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That would be the literal, yes.

But money isn’t everything. There are other traits that make some humans more valuable too.

I don’t judge others spiritually.
 
#196
#196
85SugarVol said:
That would be the literal, yes.

But money isn’t everything. There are other traits that make some humans more valuable too.

I don’t judge others spiritually.
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I disagree because not all "traits" are seen or are apparent. If YOU find certain lives more valuable than others, it's based off the value that YOU attach. You have an opinion. That doesn't make it right.
 
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#197
#197
Weezer said:
I disagree because not all "traits" are seen or are apparent. If YOU find certain lives more valuable than others, it's based off the value that YOU attach. You have an opinion. That doesn't make it right.
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Ok
 
#198
#198
tvolsfan said:
As far as I can tell, he punched the guy in the jaw once. It seems incredibly fluky that the guy actually died. I admittedly have no idea if manslaughter would normally stick in this sort of situation.
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The victim was 77, saying “Boo” could potentially kill him, if the races were reversed what would the penalty be? Justice is supposed to be blind
 
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#200
#200
To those of you who say the guy who threw the punch doesn’t deserve prison; I bet if that was your grandad who died you would not be having the play stupid games win stupid prizes attitude. I have a feeling most would be calling for the punchers head.
 
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