Are we ever going to catch Georgia?

[MiramarVol]

Remember Georgia was already on the cusp of top 5 teams when Richt left. They have been able to take that foundation and build from there. We on the other hand started at rock bottom. It's going to take CJH a few years to get us to those sustained 9-10 win seasons that Georgia had going for them prior to CKS getting there. I know we don't want to hear that, but it's reality.

 

[cherokeeeVOL]

NIL will be a POSITIVE change. The sport without NIL was dying and frankly, most teams were already paying players anyways. I am pretty confident that Alabama and Saban, for example, violated a ton of NCAA rules back in 2007 and 2008 when he started hoarding in the initial great classes that were the best in CFB.

Maybe it will be eventually but so far it seems like it's always been which is the same top teams are in contention year in and year out and horde the top players. When UT had its great run in the 90s/early 00s we did that too. How many top 5 classes or number 1 classes did we have? It was almost every year from what I recall which is basically what the top teams are doing still today. We're on the outside looking in unfortunately and always hoping for "next year".

 

[MiramarVol]

Mark Richt was there 14 years. His record at Georgia was 145-5. He was a solid HC and left the program in very good shape. His last team went 9-3. Kirby took over a turn key program and has been there 7 years. 171

Phil Fulmer was at Tennessee 16 years. His record was 152-52. His last team went 5-7.

Lane Kiffin took over. Left a 7-5 team. There 1 year

Derek Dooley. Record at Tennessee 15-21. Left a 4-7 team. There 3 years.

Butch Jones. Record at Tennessee 34-27. Left a 4-6 team. There 5 years.

Jeremy Pruitt. Record at Tennessee. Actual / 16-19. But because of vacated wins and Covid he's credited for a 5-19 record.

We're on our 5th Athletic Director since 2010.

And some will have you believe I'm settling for mediocrity because I'm happy with the direction we're headed after *3 years.

*Still have 1 game left and a bowl game. Which even though some will tell you bowl games don't matter. They're kinda like air. Not important unless you don't have any.

That type of disfunction for that period of time doesn't get magically fixed in 3 years. It just doesn't.

This is what I said in in a nutshell in another post. Richt laid the foundation. Georgia was already 9-10 wins a season. We, on the other hand, had to start from the bottom with Heupel. Did we forget NO ONE wanted this job? Great summary Sir.

 

[volbound1700]

Maybe it will be eventually but so far it seems like it's always been which is the same top teams are in contention year in and year out and horde the top players. When UT had its great run in the 90s/early 00s we did that too. How many top 5 classes or number 1 classes did we have? It was almost every year from what I recall which is basically what the top teams are doing still today. We're on the outside looking in unfortunately and always hoping for "next year".

Now don't get me wrong, this will hurt the G5 schools, Big12, etc. but teams with larger fanbases that make $$$ like Tennessee will get a boost. Notre Dame, Nebraska, Penn State, etc. So think more of the top 25 $$$ programs will be more competitive.

It has only been around 2 years, not enough of a sample. We are still partially living in the recruiting era right now.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

NIL will be a POSITIVE change. The sport without NIL was dying and frankly, most teams were already paying players anyways. I am pretty confident that Alabama and Saban, for example, violated a ton of NCAA rules back in 2007 and 2008 when he started hoarding in the initial great classes that were the best in CFB.

NIL won't be positive. As it filters down to high school and the logical next step of a college developing a "close relationship" with an athletic minded boarding school, we see schools being able to essentially recruit out of middle school to build their rosters and make recruiting easier.

If a college is willing to fund a private school, provide a kid (and essentially his family) a six figure income to "go to high school" (train like an Olympic athlete at a first class facility) and hang out with elite athletes helping him with his game...... they develop a recruiting pipeline that's much easier and likely cheaper than flying all over the country.

Make it known that your college NIL will blend easily with a particular private HS NIL, there's six figures for the family to move to TN, and you'll have facilities to build your career to the next level and the next level beyond.

Sounds great, eh?

 

[stolitonic]

One thing that helped with Georgia in 1990s was that Georgia Tech was actually competitive and good and could still recruits from them.

Umm yeahhhh. GT did do pretty well in the late 90s when O'Leary got things going. Most of those guys didn't come along until 95 or 96 though.

Blunt truth man, those GT teams between like 92-96 were probably some of the worst CFB teams I have ever laid eyes on. All I can say is Bill Lewis lol. The man ruined my undergrad CFB experience ha ha.

Hell, I remember one year Tom Luginbill was our "star" starting QB lol. I think we went 2-10 or something

A walk on buddy named Graham Strohman ended up playing most of the 94 season. Nice guy, but couldn't complete a 5 yard out route if his life depended on it. Need to look him up. Been about twenty years.

All that being said, there was a still a passion at the games. Hell, one year Buzz and UGa got into it (the guys in the suits lol) on a Thanksgiving game day. Trying to remember the guy in the GT mascots name at the time. Kevin something. Almost got in trouble as everything wasn't signed off on when they were filming "The Program"

The GT-Ga games honestly weren't very good on the field back then either most of the time.

Trust me, after 4-5 years of that-I even had marginal respect for Vandy at the time.

 

[volbound1700]

NIL won't be positive. As it filters down to high school and the logical next step of a college developing a "close relationship" with an athletic minded boarding school, we see schools being able to essentially recruit out of middle school to build their rosters and make recruiting easier.

If a college is willing to fund a private school, provide a kid (and essentially his family) a six figure income to "go to high school" (train like an Olympic athlete at a first class facility) and hang out with elite athletes helping him with his game...... they develop a recruiting pipeline that's much easier and likely cheaper than flying all over the country.

Make it known that your college NIL will blend easily with a particular private HS NIL, there's six figures for the family to move to TN, and you'll have facilities to build your career to the next level and the next level beyond.

Sounds great, eh?

This stuff is already happening informally anyways. I saw it first hand in Alabama at one of their training camps for HS athletes they were grooming for CFB. Basically these players are groomed or raised to compete at this level.

Basically the only thing that has change is that a 5 star that was going to go to Alabama because they always win might be bought by a team like Tennessee or Penn State to go to their school.

 

[JBVolunteer]

Facts are facts. We are and have always been a solid mid-tier program in the SEC. Tennessee is a program that is capable of making short burst runs in the SEC when there is parity in the conference. However, the SEC is all but a foregone conclusion every year. Georgia, LSU, Alabama, Florida… They have always been able to out-recruit us just based on geography alone but when those programs have competent let alone elite coaching… we just don’t have the horses to keep up. Look at our history. 7-8 wins per year is what we can and should expect. Anything more is gravy.

 

[Voltopia]

NIL will not increase parity. Anyone who thinks that is fooling themselves. NIL is the ultimate expression of a lack of parity. Schools like Texas, Texas A&M, Ohio State, and Michigan have larger alumni networks with massive financial resources. It doesn't mean those schools will always win, but it does mean they have an NIL advantage they can tap into and leverage. They cannot be beat. Only chased.

Then you take all of that, and add in the institutional momentum from Alabama's sustained excellence, or Georgia's sustained excellence, and the situation just gets worse and worse. Those two schools will continue to harvest the best, and their success will bring them the money to keep their players paid. Their classes are consistently in the top 5. The only way I could see Tennessee beating UGA or Alabama at their game, is if UGA or Alabama beat themselves first.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

This stuff is already happening informally anyways. I saw it first hand in Alabama at one of their training camps for HS athletes they were grooming for CFB. Basically these players are groomed or raised to compete at this level.

Basically the only thing that has change is that a 5 star that was going to go to Alabama because they always win might be bought by a team like Tennessee or Penn State to go to their school.

Of course it's already in place but the logical extension is to "recruit" to a private high school and off load the travel to elite players.

Instead, move the family or board the kids with a HS NIL and elite HS facilities and "nearby camps" that the college is "associated with" and build your relationships with money earlier.

It won't always work (as in Ewers skipping that last year of HS in TX and getting rich by going to tOSU but not really being Buckeye material,) but TX will eventually learn (it's still illegal in HS there) that keeping talent closer to home makes recruiting easier for the in-state colleges.

This is why NIL is absolutely needed LEGALLY to give athletes the same rights as young models or musicians to profit from their fame/talent but is AWFUL for the game itself.

For years and years and years we saw dark money corrupt the sport but thinking it was the "dark" part that corrupted it was not correct. It's the money. Always follow the money.

Whoever wants to spend the money to buy college football teams now can do it right in the open. Whoever does it first and best, at the lowest level possible with the family, has the best chance of getting that kid developed and "naturally involved" in their college culture.

 

[volbound1700]

Facts are facts. We are and have always been a solid mid-tier program in the SEC. Tennessee is a program that is capable of making short burst runs in the SEC when there is parity in the conference. However, the SEC is all but a foregone conclusion every year. Georgia, LSU, Alabama, Florida… They have always been able to out-recruit us just based on geography alone but when those programs have competent let alone elite coaching… we just don’t have the horses to keep up. Look at our history. 7-8 wins per year is what we can and should expect. Anything more is gravy.

Florida really hasn't done much outside of Spurrier and Meyer eras as well. Not sure they belong. LSU seems to come in bursts as well.

Tennessee was an elite SEC program from 1933-mid 1970s. The first great fall was in 1970s but even then they were winning SEC Championships in 1980s and early 1990s.

Tennessee really started falling off in the 1990s with Spurrier constantly beating them. The ineptitude against Florida really hurt the program and kept it from making a run. Then the botched hire after Fulmer was let go in 2008 spiraled Tennessee down to a mid-tier program at a time when the rest of the SEC was reaching unprecedented heights. Tennessee was not a part of the SEC run and that was felt hard by the program.

My cousin is an old school CFB fan and he cheers for Alabama (yuck) despite going to Tennessee. He stated that one of the biggest surprises was that Tennessee wasn't one of the teams in the 2006-2013 run to win a National Title.

To me, that is where the program slipped and, really, hasn't recovered.

Arkansas has had a similar fate. They used to be a contender but they haven't done very much since joining the SEC and especially since Saban came to Alabama. In the 1990s, they did contend to win the SEC West some.

 

[Undercs]

Agree, this is the point of my long thread about Tennessee being competitive in SEC. The sport itself has a problem when 2 programs can just hoard all of the players and basically have a major advantage going into the season.

The sport is suppose to be entertaining to fans but with 0 parity, it kind of ruins CFB. NIL might help reduce some of that as teams can now buy players but the Saban (and now Smart) stranglehold has killed a lot of the sport. The realignment was partially driven by this as well. Entire areas of the country are dialing out (like West Coast) because their teams are a non-factor.

Why watch College Football unless you are an Alabama, Clemson, Georgia, or Ohio State fan the past 13 years? They are the only teams really winning anything with the exception of LSU in 2019.

don’t forget AU and FSU.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

NIL will not increase parity. Anyone who thinks that is fooling themselves. NIL is the ultimate expression of a lack of parity. Schools like Texas, Texas A&M, Ohio State, and Michigan have larger alumni networks with massive financial resources. It doesn't mean those schools will always win, but it does mean they have an NIL advantage they can tap into and leverage. They cannot be beat. Only chased.

Then you take all of that, and add in the institutional momentum from Alabama's sustained excellence, or Georgia's sustained excellence, and the situation just gets worse and worse. Those two schools will continue to harvest the best, and their success will bring them the money to keep their players paid. Their classes are consistently in the top 5. The only way I could see Tennessee beating UGA or Alabama at their game, is if UGA or Alabama beat themselves first.

Those who can't see the logical end of NIL and sports are apparently unfamiliar with what young gymnasts and tennis players with elite talent at a young age commonly do: they attend schools designed to further their talents.

They're young, painfully young at times, and spend time going to school but primarily training and honing elite skills.

There's absolutely no reason, with NIL, this won't occur in basketball and football.

 

[volbound1700]

don’t forget AU and FSU.

Auburn's win is over 16 years ago. I guess I did forget about FSU but it is literally barely on that cusp of 13 years, it is over a decade away now.

 

[Tnphil]

UGA is in there like Bama and Florida...Hope we can win a game against them once every 12 years or so. Sooner or later they've got to have a down game and we can slip up and beat them. Lol

 

[turbovol]

Those who can't see the logical end of NIL and sports are apparently unfamiliar with what young gymnasts and tennis players with elite talent at a young age commonly do: they attend schools designed to further their talents.

They're young, painfully young at times, and spend time going to school but primarily training and honing elite skills.

There's absolutely no reason, with NIL, this won't occur in basketball and football.

What are you trying to say here: That UT should fund private training academies for teenage football players and that doing so will help us win titles?

 

[Buster1972]

Coaching, Coaching, Coaching.

Vol Nation will need to admit it. Kirby is the best of the best. Not just recruiting, but his role as CEO of the program. It's more than than recruiting or luck. Kirby is really good at this. Elite. Probably much better than JH. That is ok. He is better than everyone.

 

[turbovol]

We play the toughest schedule in the country year in and year out--nobody plays a trio like florida, bama and georgia every year. Nobody. Ditching at least one of those opponents every year would help us a lot, just for starters. After that it's all about recruiting and the portal. NIL is a joke--corruption--and will not increase parity in the least.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

What are you trying to say here: That UT should fund private training academies for teenage football players and that doing so will help us win titles?

I'm saying that's the logical extension of NIL. Do you think schools like Brentwood or Lipscomb have just "magically managed" to have a stream of talent who wanted to go there?

If you want elite talent, you need to make it easier for elite talent to come to your school. Rather than chase these kids all over the country in high school, offer them schools where they'll get an education AND elite training that develops their gifts. The closer those elite academies are associated with UT, the more kids will feel good about coming to UT.

UT IS in the education business. Wink, wink, nod, nod.

 

[DirtyDawg]

This is what I think in a nutshell. Of course TN can get back to competing with GA. But it’s an uphill battle. Like many of you have stated, Kirby inherited a much better position than CJH.

One of the biggest obstacles is competition in recruiting. GA has an advantage bc the state of GA is loaded with talent and Kirby and Co are relentless and great recruiters. And the resume Kirby has built lately makes it that much harder. In short, this is not an easy task for a TN coach. IMO CJH is ahead of schedule.

TN has to be able to recruit FL and GA well again. That’s tough with Kirby and Saban lurking. But it’s not impossible, it just takes time. You can’t expect miracles in the first few years, it’s something that has to be built up. Hopefully the portal can help in the mean time.

TN doesn’t have to continuously have top 3 recruiting classes to compete with GA. Just top ten every year and a few big time recruits each year at important positions. I think CJH is capable of this if you guys give him time.

 

[JBVolunteer]

Florida really hasn't done much outside of Spurrier and Meyer eras as well. Not sure they belong. LSU seems to come in bursts as well.

Tennessee was an elite SEC program from 1933-mid 1970s. The first great fall was in 1970s but even then they were winning SEC Championships in 1980s and early 1990s.

Tennessee really started falling off in the 1990s with Spurrier constantly beating them. The ineptitude against Florida really hurt the program and kept it from making a run. Then the botched hire after Fulmer was let go in 2008 spiraled Tennessee down to a mid-tier program at a time when the rest of the SEC was reaching unprecedented heights. Tennessee was not a part of the SEC run and that was felt hard by the program.

My cousin is an old school CFB fan and he cheers for Alabama (yuck) despite going to Tennessee. He stated that one of the biggest surprises was that Tennessee wasn't one of the teams in the 2006-2013 run to win a National Title.

To me, that is where the program slipped and, really, hasn't recovered.

Arkansas has had a similar fate. They used to be a contender but they haven't done very much since joining the SEC and especially since Saban came to Alabama. In the 1990s, they did contend to win the SEC West some.

Florida has had a string of mediocre-incompetent coaching hires. Whenever they get that right, they will be back at the top. Florida will always be a recruiting hotbed. Even in their bad years, they have the talent on the field to compete.

 

[Undercs]

Remember Georgia was already on the cusp of top 5 teams when Richt left. They have been able to take that foundation and build from there. We on the other hand started at rock bottom. It's going to take CJH a few years to get us to those sustained 9-10 win seasons that Georgia had going for them prior to CKS getting there. I know we don't want to hear that, but it's reality.

Look at the recruiting rankings for the 5 years prior to Kirby, Georgia was 12, 12, 6, 7, 9 contrast that to the Vols - 17, 21, 5, 5, 15. Not a lot of difference, make no bones Kirby was the catalyst for UGA.

 

[VolByBirth]

Yeah, we're just in a tough spot because the next dynasty is in our conference and we play them every year. This compounds things because it prevents UT from winning their division or conference -- which feels like a bigger loss. So with that said, I shift how I look at things. I expect UT to regularly be a 2-3 loss team and hope for a one-loss year here and there, but that we make the new 12-team playoff. That's all we can ask for -- once the playoffs start, who cares, let the boys play. Lastly, I like our coach, I like his attitude, I like his creative style of play so they're fun to watch - even when the talent isn't where it should be. The future is bright, just maybe not UGA three-peat bright.

 

[Undercs]

Auburn's win is over 16 years ago. I guess I did forget about FSU but it is literally barely on that cusp of 13 years, it is over a decade away now.

AU won in 2010.

 

[volbound1700]

Florida has had a string of mediocre-incompetent coaching hires. Whenever they get that right, they will be back at the top. Florida will always be a recruiting hotbed. Even in their bad years, they have the talent on the field to compete.

True but they have to compete with FSU, Miami and others so that is a disadvantage.

Also Texas A&M has all those advantages (if not more) and they are not in your argument. I would actually say Texas or A&M have a better resources than Florida to get elite.