Bad Beats, Monster laydowns...Poker discussion

#52
#52
Fine Vol said:
Online helped me by playing so many hands compared to the speed of live. You just get so much more practice in.
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After playing online so much for a while, the most difficult adjustment was to get used to the slow pace of live play. One game at 30 hands per hour as opposed to 2-4 of 70 hph actually made it more difficult for me to concentrate, rather than watch TV or play with my phone.
 
#54
#54
cotton said:
After playing online so much for a while, the most difficult adjustment was to get used to the slow pace of live play. One game at 30 hands per hour as opposed to 2-4 of 70 hph actually made it more difficult for me to concentrate, rather than watch TV or play with my phone.
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That was always the draw to online for me. The hands per hour are a huge difference. When I go to Tunica (as I will this Saturday night) i end up spending about an hour in the poker room and cash out frustrated by the pace of play. WSOP and WPT on TV is the worst and best thing that happened to poker.
 
#55
#55
cotton said:
After playing online so much for a while, the most difficult adjustment was to get used to the slow pace of live play. One game at 30 hands per hour as opposed to 2-4 of 70 hph actually made it more difficult for me to concentrate, rather than watch TV or play with my phone.
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And this is the biggest problem IMO for online players making the transition. They don't think things through as much and they do not observe players as well as they could.

In particular, I've noticed that a lot of online players say that they adopt a strategy for playing a hand based largely on three things -- and only three things -- their hand, their position relative to the button, and the relative size of their chipstack. All three of those things are known preflop and it sure does seem to me that they make up their minds how they will play a hand (at least generally) before the flop.

As a general rule, online players seem to me to be better preflop strategists (deciding how many times to raise the BB given the possible range of hands for the SB and the BB) but to then run rather weak after the flop.

The reaosn for this is that the math governs preflop play much more so than after the flop and of course like all of us they have such a hard time getting away from their cards and their preflop decisions, even if the flopped cards stink.
 
#57
#57
lawgator1 said:
As hokey as it sounds, and while I am always hopeful I will end up on the plus side, for me the game is still very much social.
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For me, it is very much strategic. I like trying to put the puzzle together with limited information, and I also like trying to improve my proficiency against different players and in different games.
 
#58
#58
My best advice is readbubble_boy_2.jpg
read it and think about it over and over and over. Appy the theories to your game. Think it through the best you can.
 
#59
#59
Being a feel player or a mathematical player have both been proven to be successful strategies. I suck at being a feel player - but I can figure out the percentages, patterns, and odds rather quickly.
 
#60
#60
UT IE 95 said:
Being a feel player or a mathematical player have both been proven to be successful strategies. I suck at being a feel player - but I can figure out the percentages, patterns, and odds rather quickly.
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I like the 4-2 system post flop. You know, if you think you are beat right then but put your opponent on a certain hand, then you can calculate the percentages.

Example: I have pocket 5s and the action is preflop quiet. If the flop is A, J, 3 and someone bets and gets one caller, I can figure that I'm beat and have two outs -- the other two fives. At that point, my odds of winnign the hand are each out X 4 percent, or in this case 8 percent.

If the amount of the call is close to 1/10th the size of the pot, make it. Especially because if a five is peeled off no one is going to think much of that card. But if the betting is heavy and its more like 25% of the pot to call, get out.

I find this particularly useful in draw hand situations. If I flop open-ended, I have 8 outs. Exampl,e I have 5 7 and the flop is K, 6, 4. My outs are the four 3's in the deck and the four 8's. Multiplied by four percent for each out, I'm 32% or roughly one-third to win the hand.

Once the turn is out and if I'm still behind, I'm down to my outs multiplied by 2 %. Example, I'm still open ended, now its 8 outs times 2%, or 16% to hit it on the river. If it costs me more than about 15-20 percent to call to see the river, I fold.
 
#61
#61
lawgator1 said:
I like the 4-2 system post flop. You know, if you think you are beat right then but put your opponent on a certain hand, then you can calculate the percentages.

Example: I have pocket 5s and the action is preflop quiet. If the flop is A, J, 3 and someone bets and gets one caller, I can figure that I'm beat and have two outs -- the other two fives. At that point, my odds of winnign the hand are each out X 4 percent, or in this case 8 percent.

If the amount of the call is close to 1/10th the size of the pot, make it. Especially because if a five is peeled off no one is going to think much of that card. But if the betting is heavy and its more like 25% of the pot to call, get out.

I find this particularly useful in draw hand situations. If I flop open-ended, I have 8 outs. Exampl,e I have 5 7 and the flop is K, 6, 4. My outs are the four 3's in the deck and the four 8's. Multiplied by four percent for each out, I'm 32% or roughly one-third to win the hand.

Once the turn is out and if I'm still behind, I'm down to my outs multiplied by 2 %. Example, I'm still open ended, now its 8 outs times 2%, or 16% to hit it on the river. If it costs me more than about 15-20 percent to call to see the river, I fold.
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You also have to make sure one of your 5s does not complete a flush draw.
 
#63
#63
Fine Vol said:
You also have to make sure one of your 5s does not complete a flush draw.
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Oh, yes, obviously. I also have to consider when I have middle pair that hitting my other card on the turn might make someone else a straight. I find myself laying down a lot of hands for fear that if I improve then so do they!
 
#64
#64
lawgator1 said:
Oh, yes, obviously. I also have to consider when I have middle pair that hitting my other card on the turn might make someone else a straight. I find myself laying down a lot of hands for fear that if I improve then so do they!
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sometimes easy to overlook.
 
#65
#65
You mentioned leaks, FV. Mine is definitely that I become gun shy after someone chases me down on the river. It doesn't bother me like it used to, i.e. how could you call with THAT!? -- type of a thing. But in the next 20 minutes or so, I really tighten up too much.
 
#66
#66
lawgator1 said:
You mentioned leaks, FV. Mine is definitely that I become gun shy after someone chases me down on the river. It doesn't bother me like it used to, i.e. how could you call with THAT!? -- type of a thing. But in the next 20 minutes or so, I really tighten up too much.
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Do you mean when you value bet a good solid hand and they call with a better one?
 
#67
#67
Fine Vol said:
Do you mean when you value bet a good solid hand and they call with a better one?
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No, no, I mean that on the turn I bet more than the pot and they call with a 7 high flush draw and hit it to beat my two pair. They have no overs, strictly playing a one-third chance to hit a weak flush and paying way too much for the odds to do so.
 
#68
#68
My point being that when that happnes, I used to get mad. Now I just shake my head and figure its their money, they can risk it poorly if they want and that's the way it goes. Not like I've never made a bad call and hit runner, runner to beat someone myself.

But, I've noticed that despite not getting mad now I get too tight in subsequent play. At least in a cash game you can get up and walk around and it might cost you $3 for missing blinds. But in a tourney game, you can't really do that and have to play just as you would ordinarily.
 
#69
#69
lawgator1 said:
No, no, I mean that on the turn I bet more than the pot and they call with a 7 high flush draw and hit it to beat my two pair. They have no overs, strictly playing a one-third chance to hit a weak flush and paying way too much for the odds to do so.
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Yea I see what you mean but your correct play should pay off more than not.
 
#70
#70
Speaking of poker, there are two laydowns that I have made recently, one of which was brilliant, the other was probably the opposite of that.

The smart one: I am on the button in a $1/$2 game and its raised to $7 by the guy in third position. Small blind calls, I call for the extra $5 at that point with Jd6d.

Flop is 10d, 5d, 4d.

I flopped a flush!!

Guy in third bets $20, guy to my right goes all in for about $65.

I think and think and think and fold. Guy in third calls and of course has pocket aces (no diamond). Guy to my right flopped a king high flush and so I would have been drawing dead.




The next one (a different day) I am again in the BB. The guy under the gun raises to $5, gets about two callers, and the SB raises to $10. I look down to pocket kings and raise to $25.

The guy to my left, the original raiser, goes all in for another hundred. Everyone folds around to me. I struggled with it and folded and he showed me AK. I know I was ahead and all and he was drawing awfully thin, but I just did not have a good feeling about it. I'll never know what would have come, but as of right now it was a bad lay down.
 
#71
#71
Well, you were ahead, so it was probably a good laydown. I'm sure he would have spiked an A.
 
#73
#73
I made a sick A high call the other day. I doubt I can find the hand history from Stars.
 
#75
#75
kev20 said:
Well, you were ahead, so it was probably a good laydown. I'm sure he would have spiked an A.
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Correct, if by "sure," you mean that his chance of winning is less than 1 in 3. Terrible laydown.
 
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