Battle of Madison

[azVolFan]

Well deserved pension considering the crap they have to put up with for the number of years they work to earn that pension.

What do you mean by "crap"?

 

[n_huffhines]

not sure about those salaries...
My wife has worked in the WI public school system twice, and niether time was her salary close to $90k....

Salary is not $89K, but in kind. That includes all benefits. Without benefits private school teachers aren't making $61K either.

 

[droski]

in california private school teachers make less in salary. if you include the benefits the public ones have to be making at least 40% more.

 

[sjt18]

This sums up the situation nicely:

Wisconsin tax breaks to corporations 2010: $140bn

Current deficit: $137bn

So complete the circle. How much value did those companies add to the Wisconsin economy and was it a good investment?

Given the unemployment rates, and given what we know is underway world-wide - a crisis of capital accumulation being "corrected" by mergers, acquisitions, and the good ol' war against labor - those tax breaks did not add jobs or help the WI economy one little bit.

Oh, so now jobs saved don't count?

Republicans believe to their core the State is there to assemble capital for the Welfare-Dads.

No. You know full well that subsidies for business were a Keynesian/Progressive invention in this country. Rep/Dem? No matter.

If you want to start trading off "cuts"... I'm your huckleberry.

I'll start. You get these tax breaks that went to corporations, I get vouchers and a law that says public employee pay must never exceed 90% of a comparable private sector employee. The difference is made up in ease of work, employment security, and ridiculous retirement benefits.

And as you see in WI, when the game is exposed, it is opposed by the super-majority, and rightly so.

You, are not in the super majority.

Capitalism is at its end. Its crises cannot be corrected for much longer. Looking at oil production, it's like the Big Push from the Real World Outside the Back Door is coming sooner than anticipated. Currently, I believe we will descend into fascism as we don't have the structures, the culture, or the will to turn back to the Enlightenment.

YOU are the primary advocate for fascism on this board. Progressivism and fascism descended from the same fount head.

Certainly the controlling elite have not intention of doing that, and the rest of the culture, proletariatized, have no ability to fight them.

Sure we do. Stop voting for people who want to expand the power and scope of gov't as it relates to peoples' lives and outcomes. Use our votes to force the gov't back into its rightful role as referree.

You often diagnose the right problems then always prescribe the wrong cure. Big gov't and big business along with MSM, big education, big labor, etc are components of the same problem. You will NEVER solve this perceived problem you have with "big business" without dealing with labor and gov't.

Republican leaders know exactly what they want: feudal-fascism, and when they get the keys to the legislature and run with it. Democrats don't even know what their base wants.

So if you are for choice in education, against extortion in public labor relations, for free speech, for freedom of religion, for property rights to include wealth, for association rights, for commerce rights, for the right to protect yourself by arms if necessary,... you are a fascist?

gibbs... your assertion is completely detached from reality.

 

[BUBear]

Well deserved pension considering the crap they have to put up with for the number of years they work to earn that pension.

Two-Thirds of WI 8th Graders Can’t Read Proficiently | OrthodoxNet.com Blog They haven't earned anything they just demand it. Who created the "crap" you're talking about? :loco:

 

[IPorange]

Volatile, you're drinking the kool aid on this. These teachers are way overpaid. That isn't a slam on their value to society. It just isn't a profession where you should expect to flirt with 6 figures, get 80% pay after retirement, and not hBe to pay for healthcare. No other large pool of normal job workers gets this kind of deal. It isn't sustainable.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[droski]

particurally in a state where the cost of living isn't even remotely high.

 

[sjt18]

Volatile, you're drinking the kool aid on this. These teachers are way overpaid. That isn't a slam on their value to society. It just isn't a profession where you should expect to flirt with 6 figures, get 80% pay after retirement, and not hBe to pay for healthcare. No other large pool of normal job workers gets this kind of deal. It isn't sustainable.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

IF schools were privatized, I would have no problem with teachers making whatever the market would bear. Some teachers are worth this money or more... in my experience, none of them are making that kind of money.

I wish people would just think things like this through. I guarantee that even the most delusional left-winger on this board shops price and value when it comes to their own purchases. If their paper boy charged twice the price of an equally competent paper boy but DEMANDED that he be paid more... they'd tell him to get lost. If he protested on their yard, they'd have him hauled off. Yet somehow they don't see that Walker and others are doing just this with the unions. They are saying that the people will no longer pay too much for the services being provided nor will they allow processes to remain in place that enable future extortion.

 

[sjt18]

Unions should be subject to trust and monopoly laws. They should have no "right" to shut an employer down unless bidding against someone else for the jobs.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Unions should be subject to trust and monopoly laws. They should have no "right" to shut an employer down unless bidding against someone else for the jobs.

Why? Collective bargaining is a legit right, whether headed by union or anyone else.
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[WA_Vol]

Teachers work 9 months out of the year, and get 3 months off, take that into account.

Math and sciences teachers at the high school level should be well paid, better then they are now, but the rest are probably overpaid. It's not hard to replace a gym teacher, or a history teacher, or a 1st grade teacher, its the calculus teacher that's hard to replace.

Giving them all the same pay scale and treating them like they are all equal, they aren't. A gym teacher shouldn't be making the same pay as a high school physics or calculus teacher.

 

[sjt18]

Why? Collective bargaining is a legit right, whether headed by union or anyone else.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Can you cite that right in the USC or explain it based on Natural Law? I am really interested in the justification for people banding together to demand that a property owner pay them more or else lose their right to operate a business on their own property.

Application of monopoly/trust laws would be fair for EXACTLY the same reason that laws against monopolies and trusts are fair for businesses. In fact, the consumer is hurt in the same way as well. If the price of cars is inflated by 20% because unions have strong armed auto companies into passing the cost through to consumers... how does that differ from the consumer's perspective from auto companies forming a trust that sets prices 20% too high?

If companies cannot collude to fix prices and margins then the same standard should apply to unionized employees. There was a time when you might could argue that power tilted too strongly toward the companies for this. Miners were effectively slave labor indebted to the company store. Working conditions were life threatening and companies were callous to the situation. No longer true.

 

[utgibbs]

difference is the inheritance isn't public money

Of course it is!

:facepalm:

 

[utgibbs]

How did he give it away?
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See link.

 

[utvolpj]

Of course it is!

:facepalm:

please explain

 

[sjt18]

Of course it is!

:facepalm:

No. IT IS NOT. You are either a fraud or just the most incredibly confused person I have ever run across.

Just very simply because your parents seemed to have failed so badly... Things that belong to other people do not belong to you nor do the belong to "everyone". They belong to THEM and whoever they choose to give them to.

What part of "not yours" confuses you so badly?

 

[azVolFan]

Of course it is!

:facepalm:

Please tell me you're joking.:ermm:

 

[droski]

please explain

every dime the rich make is taken off the backs of the average american. this isn't complicated.

 

[sjt18]

Teachers work 9 months out of the year, and get 3 months off, take that into account.

Math and sciences teachers at the high school level should be well paid, better then they are now, but the rest are probably overpaid. It's not hard to replace a gym teacher, or a history teacher, or a 1st grade teacher, its the calculus teacher that's hard to replace.

Giving them all the same pay scale and treating them like they are all equal, they aren't. A gym teacher shouldn't be making the same pay as a high school physics or calculus teacher.

We need better quality English teachers. Have you seen an application filled out by a recent HS graduate? Scary. We are becoming illiterate as a nation.

 

[utvolpj]

every dime the rich make is taken of the backs of the poor. this isn't complicated.

oh I figure it's something like that but just want to be sure

 

[utgibbs]

So complete the circle. How much value did those companies add to the Wisconsin economy and was it a good investment?

Almost none

Oh, so now jobs saved don't count?

Didn't save jobs

No. You know full well that subsidies for business were a Keynesian/Progressive invention in this country. Rep/Dem? No matter.

Did you just tune the last three years out? Although, I've been pleasantly surprised at droski et al big-pimpin' Super-Keynes

If you want to start trading off "cuts"... I'm your huckleberry.

Doubt it. I guarantee I can beat your cuts looking at just one department.

I'll start. You get these tax breaks that went to corporations, I get vouchers and a law that says public employee pay must never exceed 90% of a comparable private sector employee. The difference is made up in ease of work, employment security, and ridiculous retirement benefits. You, are not in the super majority.

So you mean to tell me the government creates "good jobs????????" Gotcha again.

YOU are the primary advocate for fascism on this board. Progressivism and fascism descended from the same fount head. Sure we do. Stop voting for people who want to expand the power and scope of gov't as it relates to peoples' lives and outcomes. Use our votes to force the gov't back into its rightful role as referree.

I was fighting fascism before it was cool to do so.

You often diagnose the right problems then always prescribe the wrong cure. Big gov't and big business along with MSM, big education, big labor, etc are components of the same problem. You will NEVER solve this perceived problem you have with "big business" without dealing with labor and gov't.

No, it is a problem of the intrinsic and irreconcilable contradictions of capital accumulation and expansion.


So if you are for choice in education, against extortion in public labor relations, for free speech, for freedom of religion, for property rights to include wealth, for association rights, for commerce rights, for the right to protect yourself by arms if necessary,... you are a fascist?

How are you for any of these things given the policies you seem to support?

gibbs... your assertion is completely detached from reality.

Always residing in the real world outside the back door.

 

[sjt18]

every dime the rich make is taken of the backs of the average american. this isn't complicated.

Well.... it isn't complicated if you have no moral center.

 

[MG1968]

iowahawk: Longhorns 17, Badgers 1

Please pardon this brief departure from my normal folderol, but every so often a member of the chattering class issues a nugget of stupidity so egregious that no amount of mockery will suffice. Particularly when the issuer of said stupidity holds a Nobel Prize.

Case in point: Paul Krugman.

it's always a good read when Krugman is being ridiculed for being a fatuous blowhard.

 

[utgibbs]

Please tell me you're joking.:ermm:

I was. It was to off-set droski and his "who deserves 80% of final pay for retirement????" which is probably more :facepalm: than my statement in truth.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Can you cite that right in the USC or explain it based on Natural Law? I am really interested in the justification for people banding together to demand that a property owner pay them more or else lose their right to operate a business on their own property.

Application of monopoly/trust laws would be fair for EXACTLY the same reason that laws against monopolies and trusts are fair for businesses. In fact, the consumer is hurt in the same way as well. If the price of cars is inflated by 20% because unions have strong armed auto companies into passing the cost through to consumers... how does that differ from the consumer's perspective from auto companies forming a trust that sets prices 20% too high?

If companies cannot collude to fix prices and margins then the same standard should apply to unionized employees. There was a time when you might could argue that power tilted too strongly toward the companies for this. Miners were effectively slave labor indebted to the company store. Working conditions were life threatening and companies were callous to the situation. No longer true.

you have the right to breathe, but it's not spelled out anywhere. We have the right to convene. We have the right to speak our minds. We have the right to join a group. We have the right to convince people to join in the fray. We can collectively walk off of a job, should we deem it necessary to be heard, to get our way or otherwise.

There need not be a justification. The corollary to your point would be that people have to, once employed, take what the owner offers, which is absurd.

It's not monopoly in the least. There are other workers available and that's a risk that strikers run. Your example of the auto companies assumes that nobody else can step into the void and make autos under the price of those outfits that fell victim to the unions, which has been proven absolutely untrue.

We've decided that collusion is unfair to the consumer and runs counter to our market principles. Striking is simply negotiation and is a part of market principles. Precluding strikes, union or otherwise, is tantamount to muzzling workers or precluding a gathering, which is preposterous.

I'm all for canning unions because they have outlived their usefulness, but collective bargaining has to remain an absolute right in America because it's who we are.