Bible Topic Thread (merged)

[BigPapaVol]

So would this mean you believe somebody like me, who is a loving husband and father, donates regularly to charity, is very moral (by christian standards)....basically "Christian" in almost every persona....but doesn't believe in a God of anykind, and thinks the Bible is a farce...would be damned?

he's clearly saying exactly the opposite.

 

[T-TownVol]

Did you go to Lipscomb Elementary? If so what year?

Nope, played baseball at the University.

 

[rjd970]

he's clearly saying exactly the opposite.

Maybe I misread, but I took Vol's post to imply that non-christians aren't damned, but a belief in God of some sort is needed. I was just wondering if he believed there was a place in heaven for non-believers who live moral lives.

 

[JZVOL]

Maybe I misread, but I took Vol's post to imply that non-christians aren't damned, but a belief in God of some sort is needed. I was just wondering if he believed there was a place in heaven for non-believers who live moral lives.

Morality based on what?

Do you decide to follow certain rules?

Are you moral if you obey the laws of the U.S. or particular place you live?

Why would there be a place in Heaven for people that don't want to be there?

 

[BigPapaVol]

Maybe I misread, but I took Vol's post to imply that non-christians aren't damned, but a belief in God of some sort is needed. I was just wondering if he believed there was a place in heaven for non-believers who live moral lives.

you didn't misread. I took your comment to say that you thought he was saying you would be damned.

My bad.

 

[rjd970]

Anyone that claims to know where that line is is just fooling themselves. I believe but I know there are many who do not but live decent and moral lives. In my way of thinking there should be a place in heaven for them. In the end though it isn't up to me, all i can do is live my life the best i can and leave all of the rest to God.

Maybe there isn't a clear cut line, but the Bible is straightfoward. Jesus is the answer, everybody else is for themselves after we die.

I guess I just don't see how somebody can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc...and still believe everybody else has an equal shot of getting into heaven. I don't say this to offend, but it seems like wishy-washy faith to me. There is something qualifying one faith over another and the choice is personal.

Most are a specific faith for a reason. If one believes in the Christian notion of God, simply because they are raised that way but don't necessarily believe in everything (ie, the buffet approach of picking and choosing) then they are saying their basic faith and sprituality is due to the sheer accident of birth, but will believe what they want ultimately. If they say they see the most value in Christianity because it makes the most sense and they like the foundational beliefs (salvation, grace, etc...) then it is hard to say everybody else has an equal shot at heaven, given those beliefs.

I just think if somebody says they are Christian, believe in Jesus, and read the Bible, they should have no qualms about looking at Muslims beliefs, or atheists, or whoever else and saying "Respectfully, you're wrong."

 

[JZVOL]

Maybe there isn't a clear cut line, but the Bible is straightfoward. Jesus is the answer, everybody else is for themselves after we die.

I guess I just don't see how somebody can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc...and still believe everybody else has an equal shot of getting into heaven. I don't say this to offend, but it seems like wishy-washy faith to me. There is something qualifying one faith over another and the choice is personal.

Most are a specific faith for a reason. If one believes in the Christian notion of God, simply because they are raised that way but don't necessarily believe in everything (ie, the buffet approach of picking and choosing) then they are saying their basic faith and sprituality is due to the sheer accident of birth, but will believe what they want ultimately. If they say they see the most value in Christianity because it makes the most sense and they like the foundational beliefs (salvation, grace, etc...) then it is hard to say everybody else has an equal shot at heaven, given those beliefs.

I just think if somebody says they are Christian, believe in Jesus, and read the Bible, they should have no qualms about looking at Muslims beliefs, or atheists, or whoever else and saying "Respectfully, you're wrong."

Might be the first time I agree with you.

 

[rjd970]

Morality based on what?

A main qualifer for morality in my opinion is the amount of suffering breaking the rule would cause on somebody else. The golden rule is a beautful moral principle. 4 of the 6 commandments; murder, theft, adultry, and perjury apply as well. The rest of the commandments are imaginary crimes with no bearing on morality at all.

I am not claiming to have all the answers to morality, but I certainly don't think religion offers the best avenue either.

Do you decide to follow certain rules?

Of course. But I don't follow the rules in accordance with hope of reward or fear of punishment after I die. I follow them because they are the right thing to do, and I don't need (or anybody for that matter) religion or faith in God to define that for me. Again, while what is "moral" can be defined in many ways (I am not a relativist), a good place to start is to look at it through the lense of suffering.

Why would there be a place in Heaven for people that don't want to be there?

Why does there even have to be a heaven in the first place?

 

[KB5252]

Maybe there isn't a clear cut line, but the Bible is straightfoward. Jesus is the answer, everybody else is for themselves after we die.

I guess I just don't see how somebody can be Christian, Muslim, Jewish, etc...and still believe everybody else has an equal shot of getting into heaven. I don't say this to offend, but it seems like wishy-washy faith to me. There is something qualifying one faith over another and the choice is personal.

Most are a specific faith for a reason. If one believes in the Christian notion of God, simply because they are raised that way but don't necessarily believe in everything (ie, the buffet approach of picking and choosing) then they are saying their basic faith and sprituality is due to the sheer accident of birth, but will believe what they want ultimately. If they say they see the most value in Christianity because it makes the most sense and they like the foundational beliefs (salvation, grace, etc...) then it is hard to say everybody else has an equal shot at heaven, given those beliefs.

I just think if somebody says they are Christian, believe in Jesus, and read the Bible, they should have no qualms about looking at Muslims beliefs, or atheists, or whoever else and saying "Respectfully, you're wrong."

I have read and studied the Bible over the years and it is safe to say my personal beliefs probably differ from most evangelicals. I have no problem in telling someone of differing faith that I respectfully disagree with their beliefs. I do however draw the line at condemning another to hell because of my beliefs. I leave that act to God alone. Only he knows the hearts of men. For me to do so would be presumptuous IMO.

 

[rjd970]

I have read and studied the Bible over the years and it is safe to say my personal beliefs probably differ from most evangelicals. I have no problem in telling someone of differing faith that I respectfully disagree with their beliefs. I do however draw the line at condemning another to hell because of my beliefs. I leave that act to God alone. Only he knows the hearts of men. For me to do so would be presumptuous IMO.

So do you believe Jesus was talking nonsense in John 14:6? He clearly states the only way to God is through him. Maybe not condenming them to hell, but would you draw the line at saying you are going to heaven and they aren't?

 

[VolByBirth]

Maybe I misread, but I took Vol's post to imply that non-christians aren't damned, but a belief in God of some sort is needed. I was just wondering if he believed there was a place in heaven for non-believers who live moral lives.

This thread is huge and I don't know how to search it. Has someone defined Heaven? I would think how you define heaven would dictate some of your beliefs about religion, morals, etc.

 

[rjd970]

This thread is huge and I don't know how to search it. Has someone defined Heaven? I would think how you define heaven would dictate some of your beliefs about religion, morals, etc.

Why do we even need the idea of heaven, or an afterlife at all is my question.

 

[KB5252]

So do you believe Jesus was talking nonsense in John 14:6? He clearly states the only way to God is through him. Maybe not condenming them to hell, but would you draw the line at saying you are going to heaven and they aren't?

That is certainly the correct reading. Once again though, I do not think it is my place to tell another human being he is going to hell because he does not believe as I do. I will tell that person of the great things God has done for me and, maybe that person will look into it and reassess his faith. I just think it is counterproductive and not my place to condemn another man to hell for his beliefs. It is just not my place to do so JMO.

 

[droski]

So do you believe Jesus was talking nonsense in John 14:6? He clearly states the only way to God is through him. Maybe not condenming them to hell, but would you draw the line at saying you are going to heaven and they aren't?

since most evidence indicates john was written at least a half a century after jesus' death I think we can safetly assume that not everything in john is a verbatum transcription of jesus' words.

 

[KB5252]

Why do we even need the idea of heaven, or an afterlife at all is my question.

That is just like asking the question........Why do we need science?

 

[rjd970]

since most evidence indicates john was written at least a half a century after jesus' death I think we can safetly assume that not everything in john is a verbatum transcription of jesus' words.

We can safely assume that about all the gospels.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no "Gospel of Jesus", at least not written by his own hand.

 

[BigPapaVol]

We can safely assume that about all the gospels.

Contrary to popular belief, there is no "Gospel of Jesus", at least not written by his own hand.

where is that popularly believed?

 

[rjd970]

That is just like asking the question........Why do we need science?

How so?

One has an unchanging verifiable utility to civilization.

The other is a changing historical idea based on personal, geo-soci-political upbringing that provides nothing more than a bad reason for people to be good.

 

[JZVOL]

A main qualifer for morality in my opinion is the amount of suffering breaking the rule would cause on somebody else. 4 of the 6 commandments; murder, theft, adultry, and perjury apply as well. The rest of the commandments are imaginary crimes with no bearing on morality at all.

I am not claiming to have all the answers to morality, but I certainly don't think religion offers the best avenue either.



Of course. But I don't follow the rules in accordance with hope of reward or fear of punishment after I die. I follow them because they are the right thing to do, and I don't need (or anybody for that matter) religion or faith in God to define that for me. Again, while what is "moral" can be defined in many ways (I am not a relativist), a good place to start is to look at it through the lense of suffering.




Why does there even have to be a heaven in the first place?

So if I steal $500 from Bill Gates, it will not hurt him at all, and give it to a friend who really needs it, is that unmoral?

What if I commit adultery and my wife never finds out?
She never knew so nobody got hurt.


Then why would you follow rules than only apply to life on earth? That seems rather short sighted.


Why did there have to be an earth?

 

[JZVOL]

Why do we even need the idea of heaven, or an afterlife at all is my question.

This is a silly game that could go for hours.

Why is there a need for life (on earth)?

 

[Vol Mania 21]

i'm just curious to what rjd thinks about how we got here? big bang, monkeys??

 

[rjd970]

where is that popularly believed?

Anybody that says Jesus taught this or that teaching, and points to the NT as proof.

My point is it is all hearsay upon hearsay, edited throughout history with agenda driven church leaders. Contrary to what Christians believe, nobody really knows what Jesus said or did.

I personally think if what the Bible says about Jesus is true, then he had plenty to say about how to treat people and ideas on social justice. However, I believe the walking on water, resurrection, fedding the masses, exorcisms, raising the dead, being God, etc...is nonsense.

 

[KB5252]

How so?

One has an unchanging verifiable utility to civilization.

The other is a changing historical idea based on personal, geo-soci-political upbringing that provides nothing more than a bad reason for people to be good.

Science has it's roots in Alchemy and even more archaic notions from the past. It has changed much over time. only recently has it become useful or beneficial to man.

Religion has had a place in the life of mankind for at least as long as the early attempts at science. Much good has been done for humanity through religion, unfortunately many bad things have been done through religion as well.

In the end science and religion are not as different as you like to think. There have been many terrible things done both in the name of and as a result of science.

 

[BigPapaVol]

Anybody that says Jesus taught this or that teaching, and points to the NT as proof.

My point is it is all hearsay upon hearsay, edited throughout history with agenda driven church leaders. Contrary to what Christians believe, nobody really knows what Jesus said or did.

I personally think if what the Bible says about Jesus is true, then he had plenty to say about how to treat people and ideas on social justice. However, I believe the walking on water, resurrection, fedding the masses, exorcisms, raising the dead, being God, etc...is nonsense.

If Christians are right in their beliefs, then it is very likely that the books being propagated are a very reasonable accounting of what transpired, even if flawed by human hands.

As to your beliefs about the accounts, why would Christians care that you don't believe pieces? You clearly buy none of it.

 

[rjd970]

i'm just curious to what rjd thinks about how we got here? big bang, monkeys??

As far as the process, the evidence for evolution is undeniable.

As far as how life and matter began in the first place, I have no idea. And neither does anybody else. Just because something can't be explained doesn't give religion or supernatural explanations license to insert their hoaky beliefs. People can believe what they want, of course, but I find it much more honest to say "I don't know" then to point to a book and claim to have all the anwers.