Butch says "Kickoffs to be eliminated"

#77
#77
VolMaster14 said:
I would tell you to just take up sewing or knitting but you may prick yourself and see blood.
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I enjoy a good game as much as the next person, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands that care has to be taken to protect the physical and mental longevity of the player as the game speeds up and the players become better conditioned. The objective shouldn't be, as you so eloquently alluded with your well-informed response, to rewrite the game into a shell of its former self; the core elements can be retained along with the excitement and enjoyment factor for the non-players with tweaks to the structure of play.

I think the response to these injuries and long-term disabilities is a great dividing line between those who believe the game is primarily for their enjoyment and those who believe the game is primarily for the enjoyment of the players. Without the players, there is no game.

As for your recommendation to me (and your allusion to my thoughts on the game): I have a son who will soon be of age to play rec league football. This fall, a year ahead of his eligibility, I'm going to be visiting practices of the local teams. I'll be watching how the coaches engage the players and seeing that proper fundamentals are emphasized. I'll be going to games and seeing how the parents interact, encourage, and the type, level, and appropriateness of their involvement. Ultimately, which team my son joins will be based on which team I believe will best set him up for lifelong success. After all, it's about his enjoyment, not mine. Injured players at any level can't enjoy the game, and that's what this is all about.
 
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#78
#78
Vercingetorix said:
It has nothing to do with the game. It has to do with legal liability and CYA down the road when lawsuits go before juries. Kickoffs are the most dangerous plays in the game. It's hard to argue that you've done everything possible to keep players safe if you haven't eliminated them.

I doubt anybody's happy about it, but it's circle the wagons time.
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Where does that line of thinking stop? Once you eliminate the kickoff because it is the most dangerous play in the game then something else becomes the most dangerous--like punt returns as someone else mentioned. So do you then start to eliminate that play? And what is after that? At some point you have altered the game to the point that it doesn't exist anymore. People need to understand it is a violent sport and injuries, some significant, are part of the game. people know that going into it and they still choose to assume that risk and play. the same way boxing and MMA are violent sports. If we keep going down this road, at some point, they are all going to be playing Scrabble in the name of player safety. I think there should be a general liability release that players have to sign when they choose to play. They can get insurance policies to cover any potential injuries, including catastrophic. And I'm sure noone will blame them if they decie the risks are more than they want to deal with and choose not to play. But for those who do, let the game stay the way it has always been.
 
#79
#79
According to "Advanced NFL Stats" article/website, Last season (2010), in the NFL the injury rate was 1.6% on runs, 1.5% on passes, 1.3% on punts, and 2.0% on kickoffs.

Yes there are more injuries but it is an integral part of the game and football is a violent game. There are also studies that I have read that indicate that there is a higher % injury rate on pass interceptions! Are we to eliminate those as well - or blow the play dead when an interception occurs.

It is football people - there is only a small fraction of the population (children, teens, adults) that will even step on a football field let alone be good enough to play in college or the pros. Football players take a risk of serious injury each and every time they step on the field and all but the children in pee wee leagues understand and appreciate that risk!

Hell you cant even lay the proverbial wood on a wide receiver anymore without fear of getting a 15 yard penalty for leading with the helmet! Many of those penalties after further review should have never been penalties because the shoulder pad actually made the initial contact. Most people do not understand how difficult it is to hit a receiver these days without making helmet to helmet contact!!!

From the earliest age of rec league football, the players are taught to "get lower" than your opponent whether you are on offense or defense for leverage. Plus you must factor in the speed of the game as well as the fluidity of movement of both the offensive player and the defensive player. It is inevitable that there will be helmet to helmet contact which in my opinion should not be a penalty. But I digress.

The point is that you cannot and never will be able to prevent injuries in football. To eliminate the kick-off is a knee-jerk reaction to the threat of law suits. Give the NFL a few more years and they will run their league into the ground. Serious, career-ending injuries occur in football often times without any contact whatsoever.
 
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#80
#80
AshG said:
I enjoy a good game as much as the next person, but anyone with a modicum of intelligence understands that care has to be taken to protect the physical and mental longevity of the player as the game speeds up and the players become better conditioned. The objective shouldn't be, as you so eloquently alluded with your well-informed response, to rewrite the game into a shell of its former self; the core elements can be retained along with the excitement and enjoyment factor for the non-players with tweaks to the structure of play.

I think the response to these injuries and long-term disabilities is a great dividing line between those who believe the game is primarily for their enjoyment and those who believe the game is primarily for the enjoyment of the players. Without the players, there is no game.

As for your recommendation to me (and your allusion to my thoughts on the game): I have a son who will soon be of age to play rec league football. This fall, a year ahead of his eligibility, I'm going to be visiting practices of the local teams. I'll be watching how the coaches engage the players and seeing that proper fundamentals are emphasized. I'll be going to games and seeing how the parents interact, encourage, and the type, level, and appropriateness of their involvement. Ultimately, which team my son joins will be based on which team I believe will best set him up for lifelong success. After all, it's about his enjoyment, not mine. Injured players at any level can't enjoy the game, and that's what this is all about.
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You never want to see anyone seriously injured but its gonna happen. These players are paid very well for what they're doing. We have known since day 1 how violent football is, its no secret. Most ex-players that have joined the lawsuit agaisnt the NFL have said, if they had it to do over, they would still play. Lets get one thing straight, all this is for the NFL to protect itself, not the players. Eliminating kickoffs will not eliminate concussions.
 
#81
#81
Even if they eliminate the kickoff, football will be fine.

How many posters in here have sons that currently play, or will play, football? Would you like to see kickoffs continue, knowing what we know about player safety? Knowing that the brain is still developing while these young football players are rattling their brain around in their skull. That for every stage 1 concussion, the risk of a stage 2 or stage 3 concussion grows. Knowing that concussions can have long-term impacts on the brain, functioning, the body's natural rhythm.

As a fan, it's easy to say that it doesn't matter and it's too entertaining and important to take away. I wonder what parents say. How does it feel to see your child lying lifeless on the field because they got knocked out from a serious blow to their head? Does the fear of paralysis overtake you? Is it harder for you the next time that they take the field the next half or next game?

Changing the rules for kickoffs has already curbed concussions in the NFL and college. If they make rules that can further limit them, it's all for the best.

Most of us sit on the couch and sarcastically reply to the sports anchors "way to ruin the sport!" whenever they bring up the topic of kickoff changes, but it's all for the better of the sport.

There's a difference between enjoying a game and putting guys at a heightened risk for permanent brain damage.
 
#82
#82
VolMaster14 said:
You never want to see anyone seriously injured but its gonna happen. These players are paid very well for what they're doing. We have known since day 1 how violent football is, its no secret. Most ex-players that have joined the lawsuit agaisnt the NFL have said, if they had it to do over, they would still play. Lets get one thing straight, all this is for the NFL to protect itself, not the players. Eliminating kickoffs will not eliminate concussions.
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People have always known that two full grown men wrecking into each other is dangerous, yes.

But concussions, and concussion management and treatment is still in its early stages.

Also the studies on concussions in football aren't very extensive or longitudinal.
 
#83
#83
BigSteve09 said:
People have always known that two full grown men wrecking into each other is dangerous, yes.

But concussions, and concussion management and treatment is still in its early stages.

Also the studies on concussions in football aren't very extensive or longitudinal.
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That's great, lets continue to make treatment better and fund the Dr's studying concussions but making drastic changes to the game are not going to stop injuries and concussions from happening. Unless they end up changing every facet of the game.
 
#84
#84
BigSteve09 said:
Even if they eliminate the kickoff, football will be fine.

How many posters in here have sons that currently play, or will play, football? Would you like to see kickoffs continue, knowing what we know about player safety? Knowing that the brain is still developing while these young football players are rattling their brain around in their skull. That for every stage 1 concussion, the risk of a stage 2 or stage 3 concussion grows. Knowing that concussions can have long-term impacts on the brain, functioning, the body's natural rhythm.

As a fan, it's easy to say that it doesn't matter and it's too entertaining and important to take away. I wonder what parents say. How does it feel to see your child lying lifeless on the field because they got knocked out from a serious blow to their head? Does the fear of paralysis overtake you? Is it harder for you the next time that they take the field the next half or next game?

Changing the rules for kickoffs has already curbed concussions in the NFL and college. If they make rules that can further limit them, it's all for the best.

Most of us sit on the couch and sarcastically reply to the sports anchors "way to ruin the sport!" whenever they bring up the topic of kickoff changes, but it's all for the better of the sport.

There's a difference between enjoying a game and putting guys at a heightened risk for permanent brain damage.
Click to expand...

There is a heightened risk for concussion and brain injury on each and every play of a football game or practice. I guess you would say that a DE or DT or LB or SS or FS should not be able to blindside a QB (delivering a crushing blow) when he is in the pocket getting ready to throw a pass.

Should we also eliminate the "crack" block? When two objects are moving in opposite directions with strong mass and inertia there are going to be injuries - sometimes they are severe while other times they are mild.

I would like to know which of the posters of in this thread actually played football and what was the highest level each of you competed in. I think that will give a better perspective on the issue.
 
#86
#86
AshG said:
Our lust for blood should never outweigh the safety and longevity of the players on the field. If giving up kickoffs saves players from a broken neck, chronic concussion syndrome, or early onset dementia, then we must put aside personal desire for catharsis and do what is best for them.

They're not animals bred for our pleasure, they're human beings. Maybe we should treat them as such.
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They are not chained up and forced to play they make more money than most of us will ever see it is their choice. Just like what they spend said money on is their choice which is why most are broke and trying to sue the NFL and NCAA and anybody else that they think they can get a dime for nothing out of. Point is if you don't like the rules go join the local powder-puff league and leave the rest of us alone.
 
#87
#87
VolMaster14 said:
That's great, lets continue to make treatment better and fund the Dr's studying concussions but making drastic changes to the game are not going to stop injuries and concussions from happening. Unless they end up changing every facet of the game.
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Drastic changes like kickoffs?
 
#89
#89
BigSteve09 said:
Drastic changes like kickoffs?
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You don't think eliminating kickoffs is drastic? That's a big part of FOOTball! Determines field position, can get a quick score in just seconds, can do an onside kick to try and regain possession. All that will be taken away.
 
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#92
#92
AshG said:
Our lust for blood should never outweigh the safety and longevity of the players on the field. If giving up kickoffs saves players from a broken neck, chronic concussion syndrome, or early onset dementia, then we must put aside personal desire for catharsis and do what is best for them.

They're not animals bred for our pleasure, they're human beings. Maybe we should treat them as such.
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I guess I missed the part where players are forced to play college football, tossed into the stadium like gladiators into the arena.
 
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#93
#93
Voluble2 said:
We box, we practice martial arts, we hunt, explore and climb in part because all of these things are dangerous. We ride motorcycles and race... and by God Almighty we play some damn football when we like.
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And . . . we've taken prudent precautions to make all of those activities safer and reduce liabilities. How is this any different?
 
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#94
#94
ETNVol said:
I guess I missed the part where players are forced to play college football, tossed into the stadium like gladiators into the arena.
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Lets be honest. For about half those kids, football is their ticket to anything beyond a marginal high school education. They willingly play the game, but there are a lot of people making a lot of money off them.
 
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#95
#95
GAVol said:
And . . . we've taken prudent precautions to make all of those activities safer. How is this any different?
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Riding a motorcycle with a full face helmet (let alone a helmet with no face shield) at 70 mph is very dangerous notwithstanding the operators skills.

just saying.
 
#96
#96
patrick said:
Riding a motorcycle with a full face helmet (let alone a helmet with no face shield) at 70 mph is very dangerous notwithstanding the operators skills.

just saying.
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And it was even more dangerous before most states mandated helmets be used. And people complained like hell about it despite the data.

I really do get the argument that the game is being watered down. I just don't think it's quite as bad as people think.
 
#97
#97
GAVol said:
Lets be honest. For about half those kids, football is their ticket to anything beyond a marginal high school education. They willingly play the game, but there are a lot of people making a lot of money off them.
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And a lot of those kids could just as easily played basketball or baseball in college (or track and field) yet they chose to play football instead of the other sports

Why you ask????

For the love of the game my friend!

If they did not love the game they could not make it through the rigors of collegiate and professional football (and to a lessor but still significant extent - high school football).
 
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#98
#98
I like CBJ. Don't get me wrong. But, I wonder when he will be confident enough or successful enough to stop dropping names during every interview. Maybe he is just being chatty but sometimes it makes me think that he is trying to prove that he is relevant because he has phone conversations with Peyton Manning or whomever.
 
#99
#99
Here is a serious question for all you supporters of this potential monumental change in football....

How many violent collisions in football whether it be on a kick-off, punt return, interception, running play, passing play, crack block (etc) result in no injuries whatsoever???

The answer is that almost everyone one of those hits results in no injuries to either player.
 
#100
#100
patrick said:
And a lot of those kids could just as easily played basketball or baseball in college (or track and field) yet they chose to play football instead of the other sports

Why you ask????

For the love of the game my friend!

If they did not love the game they could not make it through the rigors of collegiate and professional football (and to a lessor but still significant extent - high school football).
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I get that. But if data suggests there's an issue and there are things you can do to mitigate the issue, why wouldn't you look at making prudent changes?

Flying wedges, chop blocks, head slaps, helmet shots, crack backs, horse collar tackles, etc have all been modified or eliminated for safety reasons.
 
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