CBJ calls out the OL

[jdogvol]

Most people more readily accept, and respond better, to criticism from someone they love and respect. From everything I've seen so far, Butch has that from these player's . . . something Dooley could never manage.

 

[fade route]

Not what I said. I asked YOU what was reasonable for next year if six is "good" for this year... then explained why expecting a better record was NOT reasonable. Maybe you should actually try reading before throwing words like "delusional" around, huh?

LOL... there is no "maybe" about the DL. Jones loses 3 of the top four DT's and 3 of the top 4 DE's. There are no replacements for them on the roster. And if you think it is easier to plug your entire OL and DL up with newcomers than WR and one CB spot... you truly are delusional. Oh, he is going to lose at least 3 of his top 4 LB's too.

OK. Let's hear it... if this is a six win team then what is that one?

Probably 7, maybe 8. 2015 will be our big year imo. BTW - its not how many you lose, but who is behind them to take their place. I agree that I may have understated the DL concerns for next year, but I think BJ and staff will find some capable replacements with JUCOs and the guys coming in.

 

[fade route]

Oh, the roster will be thinner next year as well at most positions. Many if not most back ups will be true Fr.

We have alot of true freshman in the two deep this year.

 

[DD4ME]

Still waiting for someone who is not "delusional" to tell me what is reasonable for '14 if six wins is reasonable for this year... and while you are at it tell me again how this fanbase will still love Jones and believe in him if he does no better in his first two years than Dooley.

All of this crap is in some ways circumstantial week to week with new recruits, depth, and health. This year is another where talent may exist but depth is lacking. The offenses development especially the skill players will make or break next year. Some freshman have to get good quick though. Our biggest issue has been depth. We couldn't ever even bench players that needed to be, which was another undoing of Dooley. Jones still needs some luck with player health and he needs to be a jedi master of development. In that scenario you could win 6 this year but best 7-8 next and then 9-10 in 15. SEC is won or lost on depth. That's mostly what makes Bama so dominant.

 

[sjt18]

Butch could win 4 this year. He will be here at least 3 years regardless

Agree with that too. I think he can (and will) win 7 or 8 this year, 6 or 7 next year, then make real noise in '15 and beyond.

I think he is on a seriously hot seat at the beginning of '15 if he is equal to or worse than what Dooley was win wise. If he only wins 6 or less this year then that is where I think he will be.

 

[sjt18]

All of this crap is in some ways circumstantial week to week with new recruits, depth, and health. This year is another where talent may exist but depth is lacking. The offenses development especially the skill players will make or break next year. Some freshman have to get good quick though. Our biggest issue has been depth. We couldn't ever even bench players that needed to be, which was another undoing of Dooley. Jones still needs some luck with player health and he needs to be a jedi master of development. In that scenario you could win 6 this year but best 7-8 next and then 9-10 in 15. SEC is won or lost on depth. That's mostly what makes Bama so dominant.

That's the point though. The roster dips before starting to get better. This will be a better roster in terms of talent, experience, AND depth than next fall. There's nothing he can do about that... Dooley's recruiting fell off at the end. Jones first class was good but not what he needed to fill the '14 roster.

This year is a test of his ability to coach and win. There are holes or thin spots in the roster. When is the last time there wasn't? A coach's job is to take what's there and get the best out of it. I'm not asking for the SEC CG... just that he show he's better than Dooley.

 

[DD4ME]

FTR I agree with SJT though. I believe if he's our guy he wins 8 if you include a bowl win. In my mind if he's the guy to rescue UT and he doesn't have critical injuries like a JH type deal then he wins 7 and his 8th with a bowl win. Next year is 7-9 again depending on Juco line support availability.

Feasibly with the right Juco support this could be a stacked team in 14. He's recruiting as well as anyone, it's possible.

 

[DD4ME]

That's the point though. The roster dips before starting to get better. This will be a better roster in terms of talent, experience, AND depth than next fall. There's nothing he can do about that... Dooley's recruiting fell off at the end. Jones first class was good but not what he needed to fill the '14 roster.

This year is a test of his ability to coach and win. There are holes or thin spots in the roster. When is the last time there wasn't? A coach's job is to take what's there and get the best out of it. I'm not asking for the SEC CG... just that he show he's better than Dooley.

I agree with you but I'm giving you your requested scenario. We have unfortunate injuries and fall short in 13. Then overachieve with an agreed less experience but more depth in 14. Added of course to another year of his regime and buy in from the players. Then 9-11 in 15 when it's all together. Just a scenario I could envision and him make it out of 15.

 

[checkerboards09]

Agree with that too. I think he can (and will) win 7 or 8 this year, 6 or 7 next year, then make real noise in '15 and beyond.

I think he is on a seriously hot seat at the beginning of '15 if he is equal to or worse than what Dooley was win wise. If he only wins 6 or less this year then that is where I think he will be.

Please stop trying to put CBJ on Dooleys level. It seems to me that you're spinning this around just in case our new HC doesn't work out and you can say "I told you Dooley needed more time. He needed another full class and he would've had us on the way up. Nobody could have brought us out of this hole." Dooley was a loser as a HC when he got here and I was one that gave him a chance, but shouldnt have expected much given his previous HC record. Now we have a proven winner that has this team fired up and if you think there's a chance that he will be as bad or worse than the worst coach in UT history, then you need to rethink things.

 

[sjt18]

Probably 7, maybe 8. 2015 will be our big year imo.

I agree that '15 will start to get better but you really, really need to take a much closer look at the drop off in '14.

BTW - its not how many you lose, but who is behind them to take their place.

Exactly right. UT's OL will potentially put all five guys in the draft. The DL will be decimated and dependent primarily on guys who are mid-level players and first year guys. LB will all but certainly be filled with Fr.

I think you have your years swapped. I think he takes that tank of an OL and a solid front 7 and wins seven or 8 games this year. I think he takes a step back while a bunch of Fr and So cut their teeth next year. Then I think those guys come on strong the next year and start to make real noise.

I agree that I may have understated the DL concerns for next year, but I think BJ and staff will find some capable replacements with JUCOs and the guys coming in.

That's the Catch-22 though. If they cannot fill holes at positions where it is easier to get inexperienced guys ready like WR and CB this year then how can we expect them to fill holes in the OL and front 7 while STILL having a young WR corps? Next year the lines will be new, LB's will be new, and the team will get MUCH younger in terms of experience.


PS- Now we are having a reasonable conversation.

 

[livefaith]

IMO, our OL has shown very stout pass protection, but only decent (by SEC stds) run blocking.

They have (predictably) improved each season, but check the following out next time you watch a replay of the past 3 years. ... they block strong for a short while and then turn around to see what's happening to the runner. The play often ends with the runner under 3 tacklers and 3 OLs are standing over them watching the event. Some of this could be Chaney's zone block scheme. Butch uses zone too iirc.

But, I believe the group needs to finish much better. Once locked up they are usually physically equal or better, therefore they need to lock in til the "death" on their defender and drive him somewhere until the whistle blows. Let the runner deal with the vision. The lineman can can work like heck with Fulmer next week in the film room to see what happened. Quit looking for the runner and finish. Our RBs are good enough now to do their job and take it to the house.

JMO, with my feet up on the couch.

 

[sjt18]

Please stop trying to put CBJ on Dooleys level.

What? I'm not. I am saying exactly the opposite. I believe he is better than Dooley. Therefore I think he should take a better roster than Dooley had vs a similarly difficult schedule and win at least one more game than Dooley did.

It seems to me that you're spinning this around just in case our new HC doesn't work out and you can say "I told you Dooley needed more time. He needed another full class and he would've had us on the way up. Nobody could have brought us out of this hole."

Kidding, right? Go back and check my posts. I said from the start that Dooley had to make noise by the third year or he would be gone... and necessarily so. I rightly predicted that recruits would stop listening as his seat got hotter. At the point where he could no longer get that "signature win"... USCe '12 though I thought that was hardly "signature"... I began to say he had to go.

I WANT Jones to succeed. I want him to be around for a long, long time. I do NOT think he will be if he does not get more than six wins out of this roster.

Dooley was a loser as a HC when he got here and I was one that gave him a chance, but shouldnt have expected much given his previous HC record. Now we have a proven winner that has this team fired up and if you think there's a chance that he will be as bad or worse than the worst coach in UT history, then you need to rethink things.

A coach is only as good... and secure... as his W/L record. I have watched the way this fanbase viciously turned on Fulmer. I watched them turn on Dooley. If Jones loses... they'll turn on him too.

If he has won only 11 games by the start of '15... do you really doubt he will be on one of the hottest seats in all of CFB?

 

[fade route]

I agree that '15 will start to get better but you really, really need to take a much closer look at the drop off in '14.

Exactly right. UT's OL will potentially put all five guys in the draft. The DL will be decimated and dependent primarily on guys who are mid-level players and first year guys. LB will all but certainly be filled with Fr.

I think you have your years swapped. I think he takes that tank of an OL and a solid front 7 and wins seven or 8 games this year. I think he takes a step back while a bunch of Fr and So cut their teeth next year. Then I think those guys come on strong the next year and start to make real noise.

That's the Catch-22 though. If they cannot fill holes at positions where it is easier to get inexperienced guys ready like WR and CB this year then how can we expect them to fill holes in the OL and front 7 while STILL having a young WR corps? Next year the lines will be new, LB's will be new, and the team will get MUCH younger in terms of experience.


PS- Now we are having a reasonable conversation.

I see your points. Shouldn't have called you delusional.

 

[sjt18]

I agree with you but I'm giving you your requested scenario. We have unfortunate injuries and fall short in 13. Then overachieve with an agreed less experience but more depth in 14. Added of course to another year of his regime and buy in from the players. Then 9-11 in 15 when it's all together. Just a scenario I could envision and him make it out of 15.

Now we are starting to talk possibilities... not probabilities. It is possible that he could win 5 in each of his first two years then save himself with a championship run in '15... but not likely.

 

[sjt18]

I see your points. Shouldn't have called you delusional.

We're good. Apologize for being rough myself.:good!:

 

[checkerboards09]

What? I'm not. I am saying exactly the opposite. I believe he is better than Dooley. Therefore I think he should take a better roster than Dooley had vs a similarly difficult schedule and win at least one more game than Dooley did.

Kidding, right? Go back and check my posts. I said from the start that Dooley had to make noise by the third year or he would be gone... and necessarily so. I rightly predicted that recruits would stop listening as his seat got hotter. At the point where he could no longer get that "signature win"... USCe '12 though I thought that was hardly "signature"... I began to say he had to go.

I WANT Jones to succeed. I want him to be around for a long, long time. I do NOT think he will be if he does not get more than six wins out of this roster.



A coach is only as good... and secure... as his W/L record. I have watched the way this fanbase viciously turned on Fulmer. I watched them turn on Dooley. If Jones loses... they'll turn on him too.

If he has won only 11 games by the start of '15... do you really doubt he will be on one of the hottest seats in all of CFB?

I agree, the fan base will turn and rightfully so, but you can't say you don't feel better about this hire. I can't even make myself think that theres a chance in hell that CBJ will even come remotely close to failing as bad as Dooley. I can't bring myself to type such a thing.

 

[sjt18]

I really do think Jones is a good and perhaps more than good coach.

Some of you thought I supported or liked Dooley more than I did. I pull for the Vols... not the Vol coach. I supported evaluating and handling him in a reasonable way... just like I did Fulmer and just like I will Jones.

Do things the right way consistently and you will get the right results over time.

 

[sjt18]

I agree, the fan base will turn and rightfully so, but you can't say you don't feel better about this hire. I can't even make myself think that theres a chance in hell that CBJ will even come remotely close to failing as bad as Dooley. I can't bring myself to type such a thing.

That's pretty much what I have expressed with more detail and less emotion.

I compare Dooley's situation and first roster to now. I ask myself, "Who seems like the better coach?" Then I conclude that barring some disaster beyond what happened in '10... Jones should perform better than Dooley. Dooley won six games and should have won 8.

 

[checkerboards09]

That's pretty much what I have expressed with more detail and less emotion.

I compare Dooley's situation and first roster to now. I ask myself, "Who seems like the better coach?" Then I conclude that barring some disaster beyond what happened in '10... Jones should perform better than Dooley. Dooley won six games and should have won 8.

8 was what I was shooting for as well. Maybe Dooley should have taken the Majors route and drank before and during games. Probably would have lifted his spirits tremendously.

 

[MyBloodRunnethOrange]

Oh, the roster will be thinner next year as well at most positions. Many if not most back ups will be true Fr.

All of or skill position players are returning except for Neal. On the OL, Jackson and Pair both have starting experience. Crowder, Kerbyson and Weisman are all capable and will see significant PT this season, and we will probably still add a JUCO OT. On defense we will return the entire seconday as well as Maggitt at LB. Carr, O'Brien and Saulberry will rotate in at DT, not to mention Lewis, Williams, and Vereen at DE. We're also bringing in the JUCO Lambert at DT. We'll be fine.
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[utvolkyle06]

If TN goes 8-4 this year.. He should be awarded a lifetime contract.

At 3 million a year he already has it in the first 3 years.

 

[DD4ME]

All of or skill position players are returning except for Neal. On the OL, Jackson and Pair both have starting experience. Crowder, Kerbyson and Weisman are all capable and will see significant PT this season, and we will probably still add a JUCO OT. On defense we will return the entire seconday as well as Maggitt at LB. Carr, O'Brien and Saulberry will rotate in at DT, not to mention Lewis, Williams, and Vereen at DE. We're also bringing in the JUCO Lambert at DT. We'll be fine.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Agreed, with player development of the guys you mention we could avoid a drop off in 14. All I was saying is it's feasible he could overachieve next year with solid QB and reciever play and serviceable line play from the guys you've listed plus some possible Juco help. We won't have a Big Dan or Tiny but we won't have the Sullivan boys playing either.

 

[DD4ME]

By all accounts Weisman is showing out and could be a real star next year. One thing all of the younger lineman have going for them this year is they do have vets in front of them. The issue in previous years is we had rookies learning from rookies. The Bama's and other top SEC teams sometimes are forced to replace massive amounts of starters admittedly it may be with Juniors but that's not always the case. Good coaches make it work. I think that's SJT's point but I'd take his statement on 7 wins this year and I wouldn't lower expectations for 14 for the same reason he isn't in 13. Although I'm saying some of it is luck and player health/development and you can never be very sure how a season will go until you get into it.

 

[MockingVol]

I won't. I will maintain hope that somehow he can keep convincing players to come... that it will just be a fluke rather than meaning in '14 when he deals with REAL roster issues it won't be worse. Carping for two years will not help the program. Better to support him until there is a real chance that he would be replaced... which is at the earliest '15.

Realistically though, he has a very low chance of surviving after '15 if he only wins 6 this year. Plus it will mean that he only beat the teams with less talent than he has... no one with roughly equal or greater talent.

Those calling for his head after '14 if he wins 5 or 6 this year and the same or worse next year... will be many of the same ones now claiming six wins would be a "good" result with this team.

He will very likely lose his whole OL and at least 6 of his starting front 7 on D. Many of the guys who are supposedly going to tank this season because they are too young... will still be just Sophs next year. If this is a six win team then '14 is a 4 win team.

Except that the players will be in year two of this system, which some would say is even more important than the personel. What scares a lot of people about this team is QB/WR experience and CB depth. Next year all these units will be much improved.

 

[volfan10735]

IMO, our OL has shown very stout pass protection, but only decent (by SEC stds) run blocking.

They have (predictably) improved each season, but check the following out next time you watch a replay of the past 3 years. ... they block strong for a short while and then turn around to see what's happening to the runner. The play often ends with the runner under 3 tacklers and 3 OLs are standing over them watching the event. Some of this could be Chaney's zone block scheme. Butch uses zone too iirc.

But, I believe the group needs to finish much better. Once locked up they are usually physically equal or better, therefore they need to lock in til the "death" on their defender and drive him somewhere until the whistle blows. Let the runner deal with the vision. The lineman can can work like heck with Fulmer next week in the film room to see what happened. Quit looking for the runner and finish. Our RBs are good enough now to do their job and take it to the house.

JMO, with my feet up on the couch.

Bingo. Thus the SEC record.