Cbj

[UTRavens]

this is truth

Okay, since people are actually taking that post seriously...

You realize how those recruiting classes were shaping up when Dooley and Jones entered their respective jobs, right? Dooley inherited a class that was ranked in the top ten, thought there was work to be done in order to keep the class ranked so highly. Jones, on the other hand, inherited a class from a coach who literally stopped giving a flip about recruiting several months prior. Bridges were burned with our top targets, and all of a sudden the players showing up on our radar were 2*/low 3* prospects. Jones had to perform miracles just to get our name back in the conversation, let alone put together a respectable class.

But instead, you're going to just pull out the final class rankings and hold that against Jones? Shame on you. You're being intentionally misleading and you know it.

No sensible person would judge a head coach's recruiting by starting out with the class that came right after he took the job. It's better to look at how a coach does when he has a full year to recruit his own players - and guess how that's turning out for Butch?

By the way, what's your source for those scholarship numbers? I tried to look it up but I couldn't find anything that said we only had 65 scholarship players in 2010.

 

[tm3]

Source is the Vol network broadcast. They also reported that CDD had several firsts in history for the SEC with respect to starting true freshmen. They were in the O line, at LB, all over the place as "depth" was the prevailing excuse used for CDD.

CLK certainly influenced CDDs class, but weren't Hunter and Rodgers both landed by CDD? You would have to ask them to know for sure, but it was certainly argued on this forum that if not for CDD no superstar WRs. Picking up two 5* recruits put his class in the top 10. And there is yet another comparison in year one -- CDD was able to land some high profile talent that had avoided UT because of Kiffin, yet CBJ was not able to land high profile talent (Bell) that had avoided UT because of Dooley.

It is what it is, which is all I am saying. You can put the "but, but, but" spin on it if you want (and have plenty of company here). Jones' year two class may smoke Dooley's year two class -- we will know in a month. Jones' year two record may smoke Dooley's year two -- we will know in 8 months.

But right now all we have to compare is year one.

 

[JonGrudensAgent]

For some of us, quite the contrary. We are arguing the demerits of both. Some are trying to use the comparison to claim the coaches did a good job this year and everything is fine and dandy with their ability to compete at the SEC level.

Dooley ended up proving that. Jones has not. My concern is that he was at best "equal" to Dooley's first year in his first year.

That's true. And he still has to win to keep that recruiting momentum going.

I get you but, hard as you may try, you'll never break through to some of the sunshine pumpers on this site.

Jury is still out on Butch in my mind.

He showed very little to prove he was the man for the job on the field at this point though and I don't see next year getting significantly better.

The off the field stuff and recruiting has been great though so, hopefully, that is enough.

Fulmer made a career of recruiting above his coaching ability and relying on assistants for the heavy lifting. I am just not sure there is a Cutcliffe or Chavis on this current staff though.

 

[butchna]

Seriously man?!? Do u really look in the mirror in the morning, and at ur life and think u deserve to take personal jabs at people u don't know??

U seem to enjoy taking jabs at me and don't really put much out there. So i'd like to know a bit about u...so for starters please tell me the origins of ur UT fandom. No fan is better than the other imo, but I do think a fans beginnings tells a lot about their opinion on situations. Thx bud.
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Born in Chattanooga and raised orange...our little dance started when you got personal in our difference of opinions over the Dooley legacy...I actually defended your reasoning at the beginning...mostly because I thought it was schtick...your hackles are always up and looking for insults...so you'll find them...even when they're not there. Take a note from Bruin...no one gets flamed more for his sad sack routine...but he'll chime in with a good point and never seems to take anything personal...there's more but I doubt you would put much value in it SINCE I DON'T PUT MUCH OUT THERE..and thanks...for calling me Bud
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[oregonvol]

CLK certainly influenced CDDs class, but weren't Hunter and Rodgers both landed by CDD? You would have to ask them to know for sure, but it was certainly argued on this forum that if not for CDD no superstar WRs. Picking up two 5* recruits put his class in the top 10. And there is yet another comparison in year one -- CDD was able to land some high profile talent that had avoided UT because of Kiffin, yet CBJ was not able to land high profile talent (Bell) that had avoided UT because of Dooley.

I am unfamiliar with the details of Justin Hunter's recruitment. I assume that Kiffin did alot of it, but if I'm wrong, please enlighten me.

I do know that Kiffin did just about everything possible to get Da'Rick Rogers and he was pretty much sold on the program by the time Dooley got here, so I don't think you can really give Dooley the bulk of the credit for getting him nor can you say that he was avoiding the program because of Kiffin.

In terms of their first year recruiting classes, I feel like Butch apologists overstate what he did and Dooley supporters do the same.

Dooley took over right before signing day with a class that was shaping up to be top 5. He salvaged a top 10 class from it. It was no simple feat and he deserves credit for it, but he did have alot of guys already very interested in or committed to the program.

When Butch Jones took over, he had a class that was ranked in the 30s or 40s. He got it to the 20s by signing day. Of course he had longer than Dooley, and UT is a huge program with great facilities, tradition and money, who should do pretty well in recruiting anyway, so you would have to figure just about any new guy was going to improve the ranking from it was at when Dooley was canned. He did get North, which was big. He got several other big time recruits on campus and couldn't convince them to come.

I don't think either guy did an amazing job with recruiting in their first class. I would probably say that what Dooley did was a bit more impressive, but you have to acknowledge they were totally different situations.

 

[Other_Guy]

Seriously man?!? Do u really look in the mirror in the morning, and at ur life and think u deserve to take personal jabs at people u don't know??

U seem to enjoy taking jabs at me and don't really put much out there. So i'd like to know a bit about u...so for starters please tell me the origins of ur UT fandom. No fan is better than the other imo, but I do think a fans beginnings tells a lot about their opinion on situations. Thx bud.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

I figured that was an Arian Foster reference.

 

[KBVol]

Not to pile on, but more first year factoids ....

CDD had only 65 scholarship players. CBJ had 83 iirc.

With about 15 days to recruit, CDD signed a top 10 class. With about 60 days to recruit, CBJ signed a top 30 class.

Jones signed the #20 class on Rivals last year iirc. Just sayin. And this was after 3 consecutive losing seasons. Dooley was recruiting to a 7-5 regular season team coming off a bowl game appearance. Apples and oranges.

 

[KBVol]

Dooley did a nice job keeping a Kiffin class intact. After that, nothing to impressive. In fact, by now it's common knowledge that he isolated every in state HS coach and many of the kids we have now in this top class would have never even considered Tennessee under CDD. Butch almost nabbed Von Bell(who had a pick as a true freshman for Ohio St in their bowl game) a stud athlete that Dooley didn't even recruit.

Think outside the box

Not happening for a lot of guys...it's a very dense, dark, soundproof box.

 

[butchna]

I figured that was an Arian Foster reference.

Most people would...but again most posters don't take a compliment for our recruiting class and start defending our former coach.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[Oskie Volum]

Dooley did a nice job keeping a Kiffin class intact. After that, nothing to impressive. In fact, by now it's common knowledge that he isolated every in state HS coach and many of the kids we have now in this top class would have never even considered Tennessee under CDD. Butch almost nabbed Von Bell(who had a pick as a true freshman for Ohio St in their bowl game) a stud athlete that Dooley didn't even recruit.

Think outside the box

Bud...I think way to outside the box for this crowd.

I've said it before I can care less about some in-state coaches getting their panties in a wad while Dooley was trying to focus on on more fertile recruiting areas. Which can't be denied.

HS coaches have their own agenda and so do recruits. U say dooley didn't recruit bell, and some said then that bell was playing to many games for dooley to worry about him. See what I did there???...2 sides to every story.

Thinking outside the box enough for u bud??
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[butchna]

Bud...I think way to outside the box for this crowd.

I've said it before I can care less about some in-state coaches getting their panties in a wad while Dooley was trying to focus on on more fertile recruiting areas. Which can't be denied.

HS coaches have their own agenda and so do recruits. U say dooley didn't recruit bell, and some said then that bell was playing to many games for dooley to worry about him. See what I did there???...2 sides to every story.

Thinking outside the box enough for u bud??
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Sounds like you're thinking INSIDE one of those boxes that people used to crap in...explains the contents of your post.
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[sjt18]

So the rash amount of injuries mean nothing to how badly they ended up? It's your opinion that Florida was unworthy, it's my opinion that Florida would still be ranked had they not been beat up.

UF lost players DURING that game to include their starting QB. UT of all teams should have been able to capitalize on those injuries since backups had to step in.

Same for Georgia. Tennessee played both of those teams before they were dismantled.

No they didn't. Many players went down in the UF game. UGA was already missing 3 WR's and one RB stud then lost a couple more WR's and their other stud RB during the game. Again, the prime time to take advantage of a back up is when they have to play unexpectedly.

Jancek made those back ups look like All SEC players.

Come on, Vandy beat them both. Had Tennessee caught them a few weeks later and still lost i'd say in a heartbeat Jones failed miserably.

Vandy... was well coached. Those teams had had time to adjust for the losses.

Just don't see how Dooley did better simply because he notched a 6th win. They both didn't do too well obviously.

The best case made yet... made them on par. No one has come close to demonstrating with anything more than "just so" type opinions that Jones did better.

It isn't simply because of one additional win though. You could point to obvious examples of improvement and player development. The team was competitive at least for a half against everyone except UGA. Dooley was brutalized here because his teams quit on him... but in his first year that was less the case (by the evidence) than it was for Jones this year.

Altho I think Florida will be back to at least 8 wins (haven't looked at schedule), I will open the door leading out of the CBJ party if he loses to Florida next year.

Muschamp is proving to be about like Dooley. Not a very good coach. Interesting fruit falling from the Saban tree, huh? UT dodged a bullet when he said "no".

Jones should be able to outcoach him and beat him even with less talent/experience. We'll see.

 

[tm3]

Per Rivals, Kiffin had the #10 class, Dooley had the #9 class, and Jones the #21 class.

The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is CBJ had the lowest ranked class of the three.

Just like the first year W-L records. Dooley and Kiffin took UT to bowl games, Jones did not. The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but Jones had the worst year #1 record.

 

[K-town Vol Fan]

Per Rivals, Kiffin had the #10 class, Dooley had the #9 class, and Jones the #21 class.

The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is CBJ had the lowest ranked class of the three.

Just like the first year W-L records. Dooley and Kiffin took UT to bowl games, Jones did not. The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but Jones had the worst year #1 record.

Rankings aside how did that Kiffin and Dooley class pan out? Dooley also had Tyler Brady and Justin Hunter when he got here. What does Butch have to work with?

 

[UTRavens]

Source is the Vol network broadcast. They also reported that CDD had several firsts in history for the SEC with respect to starting true freshmen. They were in the O line, at LB, all over the place as "depth" was the prevailing excuse used for CDD.

CLK certainly influenced CDDs class, but weren't Hunter and Rodgers both landed by CDD? You would have to ask them to know for sure, but it was certainly argued on this forum that if not for CDD no superstar WRs. Picking up two 5* recruits put his class in the top 10. And there is yet another comparison in year one -- CDD was able to land some high profile talent that had avoided UT because of Kiffin, yet CBJ was not able to land high profile talent (Bell) that had avoided UT because of Dooley.

It is what it is, which is all I am saying. You can put the "but, but, but" spin on it if you want (and have plenty of company here). Jones' year two class may smoke Dooley's year two class -- we will know in a month. Jones' year two record may smoke Dooley's year two -- we will know in 8 months.

But right now all we have to compare is year one.

Facts are useless without context. Why are you willfully ignoring context? You can call it "spin" but it's the truth. Dooley walked into a MUCH better recruiting situation than Jones. Not even a miracle worker could have made a top 10 class out of what he was given leading into 2013. The difference in those class rankings has NOTHING to do with the recruiting abilities of the coaches and EVERYTHING to do with the situations at hand.

Dooley also had a higher ranked first class than Saban at Alabama. Does that mean anything, at all?

 

[Other_Guy]

UF lost players DURING that game to include their starting QB. UT of all teams should have been able to capitalize on those injuries since backups had to step in.

No they didn't. Many players went down in the UF game. UGA was already missing 3 WR's and one RB stud then lost a couple more WR's and their other stud RB during the game. Again, the prime time to take advantage of a back up is when they have to play unexpectedly.

Jancek made those back ups look like All SEC players.

Vandy... was well coached. Those teams had had time to adjust for the losses.

The best case made yet... made them on par. No one has come close to demonstrating with anything more than "just so" type opinions that Jones did better.

It isn't simply because of one additional win though. You could point to obvious examples of improvement and player development. The team was competitive at least for a half against everyone except UGA. Dooley was brutalized here because his teams quit on him... but in his first year that was less the case (by the evidence) than it was for Jones this year.



Muschamp is proving to be about like Dooley. Not a very good coach. Interesting fruit falling from the Saban tree, huh? UT dodged a bullet when he said "no".

Jones should be able to outcoach him and beat him even with less talent/experience. We'll see.

Great responses. We've brought points to each side but obviously we aren't going to sway the other. One thing I would like to point out is yes, Georgia lost them all in game but not an entire game and Butch did take advantage. I really think (IMO obviously) they would've won hat Pig not fumbled.

My response to another poster was not so much that Jones was more successful (he did beat a ranked team) but that Dooleys road was easier to a bowl game.

 

[oregonvol]

UF lost players DURING that game to include their starting QB. UT of all teams should have been able to capitalize on those injuries since backups had to step in.

No they didn't. Many players went down in the UF game. UGA was already missing 3 WR's and one RB stud then lost a couple more WR's and their other stud RB during the game. Again, the prime time to take advantage of a back up is when they have to play unexpectedly.

Jancek made those back ups look like All SEC players.

This. The Florida team we lost to was pretty much the same team that went 4-8. They lost their starting QB a few minutes into the game and had to play a guy who had no first team practice reps and had never completed a pass in college. That is as much of an advantage as you possibly hope for and Jancek's defense made him look like a superstar.

We were also very fortunate to face a banged up Georgia team who lost alot more players during the game.

When people here constantly want to make injury excuses for our team (by this time next month, they'll probably be claiming Dobbs was playing that Vanderbilt game with a broken hand), they tend to conveniently forget all the injuries the other teams we faced had.

 

[KBVol]

Per Rivals, Kiffin had the #10 class, Dooley had the #9 class, and Jones the #21 class.

The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but the bottom line is CBJ had the lowest ranked class of the three.

Just like the first year W-L records. Dooley and Kiffin took UT to bowl games, Jones did not. The whys and wherefores can be debated endlessly, but Jones had the worst year #1 record.

CBJ came into a program with a school record, historically worst 3 consecutive losing seasons.... did either Kiffin or Dooley?

 

[tm3]

CBJ came into a program with a school record, historically worst 3 consecutive losing seasons.... did either Kiffin or Dooley?

This point, ktowns point, and ravens point all make sense ........ But they don't change the bottom line. They are just more of the debatable whys and wherefores.

There was a lot of "but,but,but" in Dooley's first year, also. And in his second and third. Just like there is now for CBJ.

 

[sjt18]

Great responses. We've brought points to each side but obviously we aren't going to sway the other. One thing I would like to point out is yes, Georgia lost them all in game but not an entire game and Butch did take advantage. I really think (IMO obviously) they would've won hat Pig not fumbled.

If not for Vandy and the lay downs against Bama, Mizzou, and Auburn... I would have called UGa a "win" for the coaches. They outcoached UGA. I agree that the fumble likely kept UT from winning. But I gave them credit at the time for the job they did in that game.

My response to another poster was not so much that Jones was more successful (he did beat a ranked team) but that Dooleys road was easier to a bowl game.

Maybe marginally but not by enough to excuse what we saw. Six wins and a bowl was a VERY reasonable "bar" for this team.

 

[sjt18]

CBJ came into a program with a school record, historically worst 3 consecutive losing seasons.... did either Kiffin or Dooley?

And CBJ lost 4 games by 28+ points for the first time in over 50 years. He buddied up with Dooley to lose to Vandy twice in a row for the first time in more than a generation. He had the second worst scoring D in more than 50 years. Oregon scored the most points UT has ever allowed.

If you want to discuss "history", Jones reached some historic lows for the program. I don't think that's where you want to go.

 

[LotteryPick]

And CBJ lost 4 games by 28+ points for the first time in over 50 years. He buddied up with Dooley to lose to Vandy twice in a row for the first time in more than a generation. He had the second worst scoring D in more than 50 years. Oregon scored the most points UT has ever allowed.

If you want to discuss "history", Jones reached some historic lows for the program. I don't think that's where you want to go.

Do you think you can take players from a previous regime, who have been losing their entire time at UT, and change their mental makeup in a season? Because I don't. It takes time.

I think you and I agree on the ultimate outlook of UT football, but I don't think this stuff happens after one season.

 

[KBVol]

This point, ktowns point, and ravens point all make sense ........ But they don't change the bottom line. They are just more of the debatable whys and wherefores.

There was a lot of "but,but,but" in Dooley's first year, also. And in his second and third. Just like there is now for CBJ.

But those losing seasons affected the bottom line. I believe it was a factor. Plus, kids talk to each other ... atmosphere around the program/complex was bad by the time Dooley left.

I've read many, many interviews from kids who took visits when Dooley was there and since Butch has been there.... all of them commented on how much better the feeling is around the program now. Remember, Wharton, Bates, Hurd, and TKJr have each said or their fathers have said they weren't coming to UT with Dooley as coach.

 

[CountVolcula]

Do you think you can take players from a previous regime, who have been losing their entire time at UT, and change their mental makeup in a season? Because I don't. It takes time.

I think you and I agree on the ultimate outlook of UT football, but I don't think this stuff happens after one season.

We pay Jones over $3 million a year to win. Part of winning is changing the losing mentality into a winning one. This team gave up in games, just like they did with Dooley.

 

[LotteryPick]

We pay Jones over $3 million a year to win. Part of winning is changing the losing mentality into a winning one. This team gave up in games, just like they did with Dooley.

What games did they give up?

"Giving up" and "getting stomped" are not synonymous.

Stop bringing up his yearly salary. That's irrelevant.

I'm not comparing him to Dooley or Kiffin. I'm done with that. I'm speaking on strictly Butch Jones.

You didn't answer my question, though. Can you change the mental makeup of a losing team in a year? With arguably the most difficult schedule in the nation? The answer is no.