Cbj

[Wylo]

Same year that he won 10 games and a conference championship ... yes.

did he win the conference and play in the bcs game?

or did he share the conference and not even sniff the bcs?

 

[KBVol]

You mean that JV conference championship (otherwise how do you explain getting blown out by Dooley and historically bad UT team)?

I mean a legitimate Championship, in a legitimate conference, with COMPARABLE TALENT.

You're letting your dislike of Jones cloud your ability to fairly reason. Your JV comment is complete BS. Butch lost to a talented UT offensive team, full of NFL skill position players. Butch had Big East talent. He went on to win 10 games, a conference championship and a bowl game vs conference opponents with similar talent and a similarly talented vanderbilt team. You label it however you want. Those are the facts.

 

[KBVol]

did he win the conference and play in the bcs game?

or did he share the conference and not even sniff the bcs?

Whatever. I'm wasting my time arguing with guys who don't like Jones, didnt like his hiring and want to complain about the success he had at lesser conferences as he was building his resume to get a top job like UT. I'm willing to bet that Urban Meyer, Nick Saban, Les Miles and even Steve Spurrier would take my side of this argument....

 

[Other_Guy]

Great coaches step up. Even Dooley in year one made a game of it with Bama and a BETTER Oregon team before the talent deficit caught up with him at the half. Still many criticized their lack of adjustments over those losses... yet excuse Jones for not even showing up for a half in any of those games.

Keep up with? Mizzou yes. The rest had more significant talent disparities BUT could have at least been respectable and competitive for awhile. The kind of coaching UT will need to rise is capable of doing that.

For starters, he could have not played not to lose. He said several times he believed he had to manage the game for the win. He expressed no confidence in his players though they were better than the ones he faced.

If you are looking for specifics. He could have capitalized on what Dobbs did best. He could have lined up in that double RB formation with a TE on one side, an extra OT on the other, with two WR's spread to the sidelines... and basically done to Vandy what Auburn did to UT.

Nope. I and others looked at the USCe roster BEFORE THE SEASON and saw opportunity. The match ups were good for UT. USCe had a significantly weaker schedule. They had the advantage of staff tenure. But they had roster issues just as significant as the ones Jones faced. They replaced all of the LB's and DB's. Some of the replacements were Fr.

If the coaching were consistent with what we saw vs USCe and UGA... Vandy is a win, Mizzou is MUCH closer, and at least one of the overmatches looks competitive for at least awhile.


If you said then or now that 5 is acceptable or that 6 was more than a mediocre result... then you are just making "unreasonable" excuses.

Good post/points and I understand what you mean. I'm not completely excusing his coaching and decisions but you must remember what he inheritted, especially if you are going to throw Dooley in the mix. Kiffin left Dooley with no recruiting I get that, but Dooley left Jones the worst defense ever and no offensive weapons save Neal (who most people wanted benched).

So its no surprise that Oregon burned them all day on game 3 of his system. I know you can get teams to play up to competition, he did it against Ga and USCjr, but can we expect a bad team to play "close/respectable" to 6 7 8 really good teams all season?

The Browns fired their coach after 1 year. We need to be careful on the instant success crap. I just don't see a need in talking about where Jones did poorly in his 1st year and just hold off til aftter year 2 to complain. What we "expected" from this year was improvement and hope which is what I saw.

 

[TGVol]

I
You're letting your dislike of Jones cloud your ability to fairly reason.

Not at all - I see both positives (recruiting) and negatives (coaching this past year - which is probably more fault of his OC and DC but he is ultimately responsible). You on the other hand are getting annoyed by ANYONE who does not think Butch has done everything perfectly so far.

 

[thadolphinman]

I have stated this before, and nobody has tried to refute it. When the people who blame coaching look at the roster, they seem to only look at the recruiting rankings and think that our talent level is comparable. Go back and look at those classes. From the recruiting classes of 2009-2012, we signed 45 players who were 4 or 5 star recruits on rivals. Of those 45, 26 of those players were no longer on this years roster.

So of the highest rated players that we were looking forward to see, over half of them didn't play a snap on this years team. That's horrible attrition.

If you take away the 2009 class, that means that we signed 34 4 or 5 star players. By my count that means 16 of those players were no longer on this team. That is bad attrition. That really makes using recruiting service rankings non valid, and that our talent level wasn't even comparable to most of the teams that we played. That should definitely be factored in. I don't think that it really is.

 

[sjt18]

Good post/points and I understand what you mean. I'm not completely excusing his coaching and decisions but you must remember what he inheritted, especially if you are going to throw Dooley in the mix. Kiffin left Dooley with no recruiting I get that, but Dooley left Jones the worst defense ever and no offensive weapons save Neal (who most people wanted benched).

That isn't true. A D made up of most of the same players in '11 was respectable under Wilcox.

Sunseri was singularly the cause for how bad the D was last year. Dooley chose him and failed to lead him so he's responsible for SS.

So its no surprise that Oregon burned them all day on game 3 of his system. I know you can get teams to play up to competition, he did it against Ga and USCjr, but can we expect a bad team to play "close/respectable" to 6 7 8 really good teams all season?

Let's start with one of 4, ok?

The Browns fired their coach after 1 year. We need to be careful on the instant success crap.

Firing shouldn't be discussed before year 3. But there is no reason for him to be immune from criticism for performance in the meantime. He owns it. It all counts toward his ultimate fate.

I just don't see a need in talking about where Jones did poorly in his 1st year and just hold off til aftter year 2 to complain. What we "expected" from this year was improvement and hope which is what I saw.

Sorry. But we didn't. Any improvement was badly overshadowed by regression, inconsistency, and bad results.

What "improvement" over the course of the year did you think you saw?

I'll give you North. He improved. The others... not really. It would even be accurate to say that the most productive players were those least dependent on the current staff's development.

 

[sjt18]

I have stated this before, and nobody has tried to refute it. When the people who blame coaching look at the roster, they seem to only look at the recruiting rankings and think that our talent level is comparable. Go back and look at those classes. From the recruiting classes of 2009-2012, we signed 45 players who were 4 or 5 star recruits on rivals. Of those 45, 26 of those players were no longer on this years roster.

So of the highest rated players that we were looking forward to see, over half of them didn't play a snap on this years team. That's horrible attrition.

If you take away the 2009 class, that means that we signed 34 4 or 5 star players. By my count that means 16 of those players were no longer on this team. That is bad attrition. That really makes using recruiting service rankings non valid, and that our talent level wasn't even comparable to most of the teams that we played. That should definitely be factored in. I don't think that it really is.

How many 4/5* players started for the Mizzou team that embarrassed UT?

How did UT's "stars" for starting players compare to USCe and Vandy? How about So Alabama? For that matter, how about Oregon?

Four of UT's 5 starting OL's were 4* players. The other one is going to be drafted. Both RB's were. Pig, North, Croom, Harris, Bowles, etc... all 4* talents at WR that needed coaching. Worley set records and was a Gatorade player of the Year. Peterman was considered the top QB in FL the year he signed with UT as a 4*.

McCullers, Walls, Miller, Smith, and others who did not play on the DL were 4* players. McNeil, Moore, and Coleman were all 4* who are often called "untalented" by those who refuse to lay any responsibility on the coaches.

No ONE. Has said it was a great roster... only that the coaches did not get the most out of it. They simply did not. They did not do what an elite staff like UT needs would do.

 

[sjt18]

Not at all. I think CBJ has done a phenomenal job in recruiting and getting the fan base excited and energized (which is very important). But he has so far not shown what many have predicted before the season - which was that we was going to be able to coach up in games and have a more disciplined team (penalties were just as bad as the year before and our offense was the worst I have seen in 30 years of watching UT football). So it's a mixed bag for me - I want to believe I'm wrong about Bajakian and Jancek but this past year is not giving me confidence they will get it done (but I will be very happy if they start kicking ass and it turns out I was wrong about them).

2005 and 2008 were far worse on O. 2005 was the worst underperformance of talent I think I have ever seen outside of perhaps Sunseri's year at UT.

 

[KBVol]

Not at all - I see both positives (recruiting) and negatives (coaching this past year - which is probably more fault of his OC and DC but he is ultimately responsible). You on the other hand are getting annoyed by ANYONE who does not think Butch has done everything perfectly so far.

No, not at all. If you've any my other posts you'd see that I've been very critical of Jones, particularly during the 4 game losing streak. The team was poorly prepared, poorly coached and not remotely competitive vs Bama, AU and Mizzou and I said so. I've openly questioned his WR Coach repeatedly, I don't think he's done anything to develop that position as a whole.

But I don't have make ridiculous "JV" comments as a way to demean his previous legitimate accomplishments.

Saban won a national championship at LSU before going into the NFL.... were his accomplishments as a college coach in the SEC "JV"? Level of competition is much better in the NFL, right? Of course they weren't. Saban worked his way through the college ranks on his way to the NFL. Butch did the same thing in college, working his way up through the lesser conferences until he made it to the SEC. No difference IMO.

 

[TGVol]

Of course they weren't. Saban worked his way through the college ranks on his way to the NFL. Butch did the same thing in college, working his way up through the lesser conferences until he made it to the SEC. No difference IMO.

Saban in NFL is the last example you want to use cause he figured out on his own that he was not cut out for it and ran back to college before they got around firing him (other great college coaches like Spurrier and Pittino did not do that great either). So yes, people do get their shots but their previous achievement at lower levels are far from guarantee they will be able to step up. Same goes for Butch - he may or may not have what it takes for SEC but his results at Cincy (JV) cannot and should not be used to predict that he has high chances of making it. He should be happy that those results were good enough to get him a chance in SEC but people should stop pushing that as some kind of proof that he has what it takes.
This first year in SEC is far more important as far as predicting his chances for long term survival in the SEC than anything that happened in Cincy or C Michigan.

 

[onevol74]

Good post/points and I understand what you mean. I'm not completely excusing his coaching and decisions but you must remember what he inheritted, especially if you are going to throw Dooley in the mix. Kiffin left Dooley with no recruiting I get that, but Dooley left Jones the worst defense ever and no offensive weapons save Neal (who most people wanted benched).

So its no surprise that Oregon burned them all day on game 3 of his system. I know you can get teams to play up to competition, he did it against Ga and USCjr, but can we expect a bad team to play "close/respectable" to 6 7 8 really good teams all season?

The Browns fired their coach after 1 year. We need to be careful on the instant success crap. I just don't see a need in talking about where Jones did poorly in his 1st year and just hold off til aftter year 2 to complain. What we "expected" from this year was improvement and hope which is what I saw.

I disagree that Dooley left the cupboard bare. We had a 2-deep OL and experienced DL. The best coaching staff in America should have been able to work with that to beat Vandy and Florida. I thnk not retaining Pittman was a huge mistake in maintaining continuity in that OL.

 

[tm3]

did he win the conference and play in the bcs game?

or did he share the conference and not even sniff the bcs?

it was his co-co "championship" or his co-co-co "championship." there are 7 teams in that conference so it is hard to keep count.

 

[Wylo]

it was his co-co "championship" or his co-co-co "championship." there are 7 teams in that conference so it is hard to keep count.

awesome

 

[tm3]

I have little doubt that Malzahn would have a) hired a top shelf DC and b) found a way to win 6-8 games.

plus if HC at UT, Malzahn would likely have brought in a juco QB to run his system just like he did at the barn. instead of relying on worley.

 

[darkgable]

He probably no longer has that Texas option - hard to imagine them hiring someone who just got handled by Oklahoma's freshmen QB (even with his resume that may be a tough pill to swallow for Texas fans).

He loses two games and would no longer have the Texas option. Yeah that's it Sabans record sucks now. Nobody would want him. The fall of Bama due to two loses. We're 5-7, I guess that means we're on the come up.

 

[Other_Guy]

That isn't true. A D made up of most of the same players in '11 was respectable under Wilcox.

Sunseri was singularly the cause for how bad the D was last year. Dooley chose him and failed to lead him so he's responsible for SS.

Let's start with one of 4, ok?

Firing shouldn't be discussed before year 3. But there is no reason for him to be immune from criticism for performance in the meantime. He owns it. It all counts toward his ultimate fate.

Sorry. But we didn't. Any improvement was badly overshadowed by regression, inconsistency, and bad results.

What "improvement" over the course of the year did you think you saw?

I'll give you North. He improved. The others... not really. It would even be accurate to say that the most productive players were those least dependent on the current staff's development.

The regression happened when Dobbs started. I don't see why this is even debatable.

The improvement was that they beat a ranked team when last year they had a pretty solid offense and couldn't beat Vandy (I believe with certainty they'd have beaten them this year had Worley been playing).

Jones inherited a worse team than what they had last year. I could not reasonably expect anything good from this team. I guess I just don't know why you expected so much more from mostly atrocious QB play with players who don't exactly fit the new system and had an incompetent "leader" for a coach.

Maybe I should expect more, but when I see average players + players that don't fit the system I see blowouts.

P.S. I saw better half time adjustments than EVER under Dools.

But I'll leave it at that. We both know what's bad and good, and neither of us are judging whether he's the right guy by one year, so I see no sense in arguing.

 

[Other_Guy]

I disagree that Dooley left the cupboard bare. We had a 2-deep OL and experienced DL. The best coaching staff in America should have been able to work with that to beat Vandy and Florida. I thnk not retaining Pittman was a huge mistake in maintaining continuity in that OL.

Does no one realize the only reason we lost both of those games was because of QB play? The only... single... reason.

 

[Eddie Vol Halen]

Does no one realize the only reason we lost both of those games was because of QB play? The only... single... reason.

QB was the biggest reason, certainly.

But we fired Fulmer because of bad QB play. Ergo, the next guy(s) should be doing better.

 

[Other_Guy]

QB was the biggest reason, certainly.

But we fired Fulmer because of bad QB play. Ergo, the next guy(s) should be doing better.

I thought we fired him because he wasn't winning SEC championships left and right and we just couldn't handle a losing season lol

 

[TGVol]

He loses two games and would no longer have the Texas option. Yeah that's it Sabans record sucks now. Nobody would want him. The fall of Bama due to two loses. We're 5-7, I guess that means we're on the come up.

I did not say nobody would want him (I would love to have him at UT). But Oklahoma is their main rival and it probably does not help him (or anyone) to get blown out by Oklahoma - that cannot make it attractive selling point to Texas fans (which like all other fans are very short sighted - we should know after firing CPF - his past resume including NC and bleeding orange was not enough to save him once the rednecks got hot after few losing seasons).

 

[Wylo]

I did not say nobody would want him (I would love to have him at UT). But Oklahoma is their main rival and it probably does not help him (or anyone) to get blown out by Oklahoma - that cannot make it attractive selling point to Texas fans (which like all other fans are very short sighted - we should know after firing CPF - his past resume including NC and bleeding orange was not enough to save him once the rednecks got hot after few losing seasons).

or.......

After Fulmer made it obvious that many other coaches were passing him by. That and all those blowouts vs. Florida and Alabama..

 

[TGVol]

or.......

After Fulmer made it obvious that many other coaches were passing him by. That and all those blowouts vs. Florida and Alabama..

I disagree. All programs go through up/down cycles - with CPF we had a lot more ups than downs - if we were patient he would have turned it around again. Yes, he did lose to Florida too much - but pretty much had everybody else's number over the years he was at UT (including 7 game win streak vs Bama).

 

[butchna]

Was that the same year he got blown out by Dooley?

Like it's not on a poster in your room...next to Shaun Cassidy
Posted via VolNation Mobile

 

[TGVol]

Like it's not on a poster in your room...next to Shaun Cassidy
Posted via VolNation Mobile

Not a poster (too old for that) but I have that game bookmarked (often comes in handy in this forum where people have amnesia about inconvenient facts that don't help to make their case when they are trashing good old CDD).
As far as Shaun Cassidy - had no idea who that was (looked it up in wiki but still not sure what you meant my that - although I'm sure it's somehow not flattering).