Conference expansion

[feathersax]

Just read about the ACC meeting to discuss possibly inviting Stanford and Cal. This can’t be real!

It's gotten way out of hand.

 

[stolitonic]

Could be reality one day.

Get rid of Louisville and relegate the Lamecocks elsewhere if we are doubling up with Clemson.

Neither school has added or will ever add much

Keep it at absolute max of 24. Having 24 is bad enough, but 26? Just makes absolutely no logistical sense as a final project.

 

[WillisWG]

Expansion, realignment hate it. Call it whatever you want but it has and continues to destroy traditional rivalries and diminish bowl games.

Do I want to play a Texas or OU? Yes but not in conference play but in a traditional New Year's Day bowl. The Sugar Bowl is no longer the prize for the SEC. Rose bowl without the Big 10 Champ. All of it a damn shame.

 

[stolitonic]

Conspiracy theory that in no way is true, but let's throw some spaghetti against the wall and see if it sticks...

ESPN slides FSU and Clemson over to the SEC and slide Cal and Stanford into their slots in the ACC. This avoids FSUs claim they're going to court. It also keeps your 2 biggest brands in the ESPN portfolio. This also gets you a few more late night games on the west coast.

That's a possibility, but I see this happening one of either two ways.

1. A form of what you wrote. Stanford and Cal come in a 1/2 or 2/3 revenue shares for a period of 5 years. The rest of the full share for those two schools ($10-$15 million a year) go to FSU and Clemson to keep them in the fold.

This settles things for the year and kicks the can down the road, but UNC and UVA are displeased and bolt in summer 25 followed by others.

2. Constant bellyaching by FSU and Clemson is not going to help the ACC. Having partners that don't wanna be there just plain sucks point blank. The toxicity scale is gonna be off the charts.

Let those two schools out of everything for a one time offer of $200-$250 million each due within one week. Take it or leave it.
Take that and distribute it to your remaining 10 OG members giving them $40-$50 million each in one shot cash

FSU and Clemson are not overjoyed, but they accept it. The mouse is happy. The ACC lives to fight another day

With this route, the ACC may hold on until 2027 or so. It buys you time at least, fate may shift again in your favor at any time, who knows?. With option 1, they are gonna get raided next summer and it's over.

 

[KB5252]

If I’m thinking more about every sport besides football. Even baseball players don’t get a full scholarship and they play games during the week. What is the Cal soccer player going to do?
I know a kid that just committed to Stanford to play baseball and football. If I am him, I am entering the portal as soon as baseball season is over this year.

I agree with and get that argument..... But in the end the football programs bankroll virtually every other sport at most universities....... The TV deals for football are the lifeblood of athletics.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

@stolitonic
"Let those two schools out of everything for a one time offer of $200-$250 million each due within one week. Take it or leave it."

I've seen the Saudis mentioned (trying to wash blood off their hands with sports) and Venture Capital firms mentioned (vultures) but who, other than the US govt, just gives away a quarter of a billion dollars without getting a significant pound of flesh?

 

[stolitonic]

@stolitonic
"Let those two schools out of everything for a one time offer of $200-$250 million each due within one week. Take it or leave it."

I've seen the Saudis mentioned (trying to wash blood off their hands with sports) and Venture Capital firms mentioned (vultures) but who, other than the US govt, just gives away a quarter of a billion dollars without getting a significant pound of flesh?

I'm not arguing that it's going to hurt the pocketbook of FSU. Hell, at least as of a few years ago their total endowment was in the $700 million range. In terms of big time college athletics, FSU is cash poor.

Where they would even get the money I have no clue.

I was simply offering two choices, one of which will probably be reality eventually.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I'm not arguing that it's going to hurt the pocketbook of FSU. Hell, at least as of a few years ago their total endowment was in the $700 million range. In terms of big time college athletics, FSU is cash poor.

Where they would even get the money I have no clue.

I was simply offering two choices, one of which will probably be reality eventually.

Any university, even Harvard, that pays that kind of money to get out of a sports conference has priority issues.

At some point the high sports revenue schools are going to need to make a choice to be pro franchises or universities. It's pretty obvious that trying to combine the two is not working well.

If FSU "needs" to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to be in another conference because their sports business isn't making enough money, maybe FSU needs to decide what FSU's mission is.

 

[stolitonic]

Any university, even Harvard, that pays that kind of money to get out of a sports conference has priority issues.

At some point the high sports revenue schools are going to need to make a choice to be pro franchises or universities. It's pretty obvious that trying to combine the two is not working well.

If FSU "needs" to pay hundreds of millions of dollars to be in another conference because their sports business isn't making enough money, maybe FSU needs to decide what FSU's mission is.

Not saying that I disagree with you.

This is where we are in the year 2023 though whether you like it or not.

Basically if FSu stays put until 2036 they get $390 million give or take

FSU bolts for the B10 or SEC, that will be more like $780 million or so.

Add in $200 million to be able to bolt and you're still up $190 million.

That doesn't even include any additional money from more merch sales, etc etc which would be expected in the SEC or B10.

Don't know much about your finances, but my boss called me now and offered me $190 million (in addition to the salary I am getting now) at a minimum to move to Bangladesh tomorrow for the next 13 years I would be on the first thing smoking outta Texas. (And I love the state of Texas, just not their football teams lol).

 

[Panthro]

I agree with and get that argument..... But in the end the football programs bankroll virtually every other sport at most universities....... The TV deals for football are the lifeblood of athletics.

Sure, but a volleyball player doesn't care about that. They just want to play their sport to get an education at a reduced cost. It's not going to matter if their 3-9 football team paid for it when they're playing a Tuesday game 3,000 miles away before a big exam.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Not saying that I disagree with you.

This is where we are in the year 2023 though whether you like it or not.

Basically if FSu stays put until 2036 they get $390 million give or take

FSU bolts for the B10 or SEC, that will be more like $780 million or so.

Add in $200 million to be able to bolt and you're still up $190 million.

That doesn't even include any additional money from more merch sales, etc etc which would be expected in the SEC or B10.

Don't know much about your finances, but my boss called me now and offered me $190 million (in addition to the salary I am getting now) at a minimum to move to Bangladesh tomorrow for the next 13 years I would be on the first thing smoking outta Texas. (And I love the state of Texas, just not their football teams lol).

I get it. And I don't like it.

Colleges jumping conferences for the money just bolsters the cases of athletes who will sue to be declared employees. I'm not naive and revenue sports haven't been about "the college experience" in decades but employee status will completely obliterate the "college" aspect of college sports.

The employees of a college cannot be treated like students, ordered to attend classes not related to their employment, forced to quit their job after 4-5 years, etc. They are professional athletes at that point and what we now call "college football" is "those pro teams owned by universities."

I'd really rather this process slow down until I'm too far gone to care. I'll miss the "student athlete" when they're completely gone.

 

[82_VOL_83]

This **** started with paying players. Expanded to the NIL. Now teams are clamoring to get in the playoffs and jumping conferences because of the need for $$$$$$$$. Put the conferences back to 12 teams max. Set boundary limits for travel. Play 8 conference games and put the champs in the playoffs. Add some more non-champion teams and call it a day. Instead, we are seeing idiocy that will destroy college football and also begin the quick slide toward eliminating non-revenue sports. All those who desire definite champions and paying players have gotten what you want. Hope you are ****ing happy.

/rant

 

[GroverCleveland]

Why not divorce football conferences from everything else? For example, have the SEC Football Conference and SEC Other-Sports-Not-As-Important-As-Football Conference and same for all the others. There would be a PAC-12 Other Sports No One Watches. Those other sports participate in what could be their pre-Realignment conferences. Include basketball in the others because only men's BB, with very few exceptions, makes money.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Why not divorce football conferences from everything else? For example, have the SEC Football Conference and SEC Other-Sports-Not-As-Important-As-Football Conference and same for all the others. There would be a PAC-12 Other Sports No One Watches. Those other sports participate in what could be their pre-Realignment conferences. Include basketball in the others because only men's BB, with very few exceptions, makes money.

Someone mentioned that UT and Bama women's rowing are "affiliates" with the Big 12.

Sports can apparently go elsewhere to compete if their conference doesn't "sponsor" the sport. Women's rowing probably operates at a loss, of course, and that money may or may not be made up by football or basketball.

I'm not sure that helps the current situation in any way unfortunately.

 

[GoDucks349]

Rumor is Oregon sent our all new recruiting materials Saturday that carry the Big 10 logo. Enough of Lincoln Riley telling recruits that they should go to USC over Oregon because USC is in the Big 10 and Oregon is in the PAC. USC had 13 months to exploit this in recruiting. Looks like the playing field leveled again... Here come the DUCKS!

4 Star CB Dakoda Fields just flipped from USC to Oregon yesterday

 

[VolsFan-TX]

Why not divorce football conferences from everything else? For example, have the SEC Football Conference and SEC Other-Sports-Not-As-Important-As-Football Conference and same for all the others. There would be a PAC-12 Other Sports No One Watches. Those other sports participate in what could be their pre-Realignment conferences. Include basketball in the others because only men's BB, with very few exceptions, makes money.

That’s an interesting suggestion. Per the linked article, only 25 division 1 football teams made money in 2019. Also, only 25 of all ncaa athletic departments (~1,100 schools) made money in the same year. By spreading out the conferences and increasing travel costs for non-revenue generating sports the financial losses will only increase.

Do Colleges Make Money From Athletics? | BestColleges

 

[GroverCleveland]

That’s an interesting suggestion. Per the linked article, only 25 division 1 football teams made money in 2019. Also, only 25 of all ncaa athletic departments (~1,100 schools) made money in the same year. By spreading out the conferences and increasing travel costs for non-revenue generating sports the financial losses will only increase.

Do Colleges Make Money From Athletics? | BestColleges

I think the actual football programs make money, it was only 25 athletic departments as a whole made money.

 

[LouderVol]

This **** started with paying players. Expanded to the NIL. Now teams are clamoring to get in the playoffs and jumping conferences because of the need for $$$$$$$$. Put the conferences back to 12 teams max. Set boundary limits for travel. Play 8 conference games and put the champs in the playoffs. Add some more non-champion teams and call it a day. Instead, we are seeing idiocy that will destroy college football and also begin the quick slide toward eliminating non-revenue sports. All those who desire definite champions and paying players have gotten what you want. Hope you are ****ing happy.

/rant

No this crap started with fans demanding to win, and wanting to watch every game. Things have been snowballing for a while, we are just now getting to the "find out" part of "eff around".

The money first hit college football a LONG time ago. First it was the schools getting it from TV. Then the coaches were getting money from the schools. Its insane that pretty much every P5 University's highest paid employee is a football coach. That's a better place to point at if you miss the days of them being student athletes, hard to argue the student side matters when the athletic coach gets paid top dollar. Most coordinators in the SEC and Big 10 probably make more money than most University Presidents too.

The players aren't getting paid by the schools, yet. They are getting paid for their NIL after being un-Constitutionally denied that right. Its all you blue hairs who refused even common sense changes to the NCAA model that lead us to this mess. Instead of making small adaptions to stay with the time, you fought it to the bitter end to the point that the Supreme Court agreed 9-0 that the model was wrong. That's how bad it was, every single supreme court justice thought it was wrong. and not wrong from a sports stand point, but from rights standpoint. You could have let athletes make money from non-sports areas, and this probably wouldn't have come up, or worked out some form of profit sharing. but instead you fought for a system that denied people their own Name Image and Likeness.

 

[Firebirdparts]

^^^^ I think so too. Most of the stupidity is fan driven, really. Sports fans, as a group, are not geniuses.

 

[82_VOL_83]

No this crap started with fans demanding to win, and wanting to watch every game. Things have been snowballing for a while, we are just now getting to the "find out" part of "eff around".

The money first hit college football a LONG time ago. First it was the schools getting it from TV. Then the coaches were getting money from the schools. Its insane that pretty much every P5 University's highest paid employee is a football coach. That's a better place to point at if you miss the days of them being student athletes, hard to argue the student side matters when the athletic coach gets paid top dollar. Most coordinators in the SEC and Big 10 probably make more money than most University Presidents too.

The players aren't getting paid by the schools, yet. They are getting paid for their NIL after being un-Constitutionally denied that right. Its all you blue hairs who refused even common sense changes to the NCAA model that lead us to this mess. Instead of making small adaptions to stay with the time, you fought it to the bitter end to the point that the Supreme Court agreed 9-0 that the model was wrong. That's how bad it was, every single supreme court justice thought it was wrong. and not wrong from a sports stand point, but from rights standpoint. You could have let athletes make money from non-sports areas, and this probably wouldn't have come up, or worked out some form of profit sharing. but instead you fought for a system that denied people their own Name Image and Likeness.

Well this blue hair is fine with the ****ed up system if you are. I want to see the tax returns for these kids. I also want to see every damn dime and benefit they receive taxed. Schollies, television exposure in the form of free skills marketing, Porsche level healthcare, use of workout facilities with personal trainers, etc., etc. None of the other students are exempt from that. But hey, you win at all costs guys go right ahead and destroy football by dumping every last dollar you can into it but don't bitch when baseball, softball, tennis and soccer are demoted to club sports.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

Well this blue hair is fine with the ****ed up system if you are. I want to see the tax returns for these kids. I also want to see every damn dime and benefit they receive taxed. Schollies, television exposure in the form of free skills marketing, Porsche level healthcare, use of workout facilities with personal trainers, etc., etc. None of the other students are exempt from that. But hey, you win at all costs guys go right ahead and destroy football by dumping every last dollar you can into it but don't bitch when baseball, softball, tennis and soccer are demoted to club sports.

As a "gray hair," how come you never wanted to see Fulmer's tax return? How come you never wanted Johnny's?

Coaches and admins were making bank well before the players and that was never an issue.

Suddenly the players get a little money, most don't make much at all, and you get your Depends in a wad.

We made this. We all made this. Every one of us old farts that wanted The Vols on TV every week, wanted big TV money for the school, wanted to send coaches all over the country to recruit to get that Natty....... why can't we just own it?

We did this.

 

[LouderVol]

Well this blue hair is fine with the ****ed up system if you are. I want to see the tax returns for these kids. I also want to see every damn dime and benefit they receive taxed. Schollies, television exposure in the form of free skills marketing, Porsche level healthcare, use of workout facilities with personal trainers, etc., etc. None of the other students are exempt from that. But hey, you win at all costs guys go right ahead and destroy football by dumping every last dollar you can into it but don't bitch when baseball, softball, tennis and soccer are demoted to club sports.

I am fine with them getting taxed. Its one of the things I have even argued as a positive for UT, because TN doesn't have a state income tax like most states. I am surprised it hasn't already become an issue, the IRS will always get theirs, and there is no way ALL these players are remembering to/actually withholding ~40% of their NIL pay.

scholarships aren't taxed, aren't for regular students, aren't for athletes, not sure why that would/should change for the athlete.
No other scholarship but an athletic scholarship stopped a student from profiting from their Name, Image, or Likeness. If anything NIL makes them more like the other students than they were before. Acknowledging that these kids have value as their own entity doesn't take away one bit from my enjoyment of watching college football.

Like I said, it could/should have stayed all the same, I am not in favor of the playoffs, buts that's just another case of fighting something to the bitter end and making it worse, instead of adapting over time for a better product for everyone. If all conference champs had been guaranteed a spot from the beginning there wouldn't have been a need to jump ship.

the dollars come from eyes. the SEC was always going to have a leg up there, it just means more here than it does anywhere else. Our success is what pushed all the change we are seeing. If we didn't demand to see every game, if we didn't demand that we should fire a coach for not winning the SEC every other year, the entire sport would be different.

 

[82_VOL_83]

As a "gray hair," how come you never wanted to see Fulmer's tax return? How come you never wanted Johnny's?

Coaches and admins were making bank well before the players and that was never an issue.

Suddenly the players get a little money, most don't make much at all, and you get your Depends in a wad.

We made this. We all made this. Every one of us old farts that wanted The Vols on TV every week, wanted big TV money for the school, wanted to send coaches all over the country to recruit to get that Natty....... why can't we just own it?

We did this.

I liked it the way it was. I do agree with Louder that this could have been done incrementally. However, I have always felt the players made enough $$$ with the benefits they receive from the school. Gonna suck not having baseball and softball as varsity sports.

 

[82_VOL_83]

I am fine with them getting taxed. Its one of the things I have even argued as a positive for UT, because TN doesn't have a state income tax like most states. I am surprised it hasn't already become an issue, the IRS will always get theirs, and there is no way ALL these players are remembering to/actually withholding ~40% of their NIL pay.

scholarships aren't taxed, aren't for regular students, aren't for athletes, not sure why that would/should change for the athlete.
No other scholarship but an athletic scholarship stopped a student from profiting from their Name, Image, or Likeness. If anything NIL makes them more like the other students than they were before. Acknowledging that these kids have value as their own entity doesn't take away one bit from my enjoyment of watching college football.

Like I said, it could/should have stayed all the same, I am not in favor of the playoffs, buts that's just another case of fighting something to the bitter end and making it worse, instead of adapting over time for a better product for everyone. If all conference champs had been guaranteed a spot from the beginning there wouldn't have been a need to jump ship.

the dollars come from eyes. the SEC was always going to have a leg up there, it just means more here than it does anywhere else. Our success is what pushed all the change we are seeing. If we didn't demand to see every game, if we didn't demand that we should fire a coach for not winning the SEC every other year, the entire sport would be different.

This is about 98% where I am and always have been. I'm not an NIL fan in its current form but don't know how to fix it and can't put that horse back in the barn.

 

[SayUWantAreVOLution]

I liked it the way it was. I do agree with Louder that this could have been done incrementally. However, I have always felt the players made enough $$$ with the benefits they receive from the school. Gonna suck not having baseball and softball as varsity sports.

Seriously? One week Peyton's work was worth a scholarship and the next an $11M bonus?

You must REALLY think highly of an athletic scholarship.