Could the next 2 games decide Manning vs Brady debate?

#51
#51
99gator said:
You know bellichek is a defensive guy, right?

The pats change offensive assistants more often than the kardashians change husbands.
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Belichik hasn't been solely a "defensive guy" for more than a decade. He has his hands on everything with that team. He's even gone whole seasons without an offensive coordinator. It's clearly his team, as assistants come and go., never achieving anything close to the same level of success elsewhere as they have working under Belichik, with him pulling the strings.
 
#53
#53
PS> Joe Montana success was largely a product of Bill Walsh's visionary West Coast offense, and Montana had a vastly superior supporting cast (Rice, Lott, etc) than either Brady or Manning. I would put he and Brett Favre in a distant battle for 3rd-best behind Brady and Manning, IMHO.
 
#54
#54
Simple fact...Brady and Bellichek have not won a Super Bowl since getting caught cheating...

Brady had some of the best defenses in the league when he won his superbowls

Manning has never had a top 10-15 defense in his time with Indy, if I'm not mistaken...
 
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#55
#55
oregonvol said:
I don't think the next two games decide anything.

If Manning beats the Patriots and wins the Super Bowl, it would certainly be an impressive feat. He would be the first QB to lead two completely different teams with different coaches to a Super Bowl Championship. To my mind, that is more impressive than winning multiple Super Bowls with the same team. But does it erase years of himself and his teams underperforming in the postseason? I don't think so.

If Brady beats the Broncos and wins the Super Bowl, we'll never hear the end of it from the media about how he has as many rings as Montana. And that is pretty impressive. But he still hasn't done anything without Belichick. Before Belichick coached him, he was an above average high school prospect, who was no more than an above average college QB. He has never done anything remarkable without Belichick. I wouldn't call anyone the greatest of all time when pretty much all of their success depends so much on another person.
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Or you could spin it the way that if Brady won this year, he'd do it with a 100% different active roster than the last time he won it, which would be insanely impressive.
 
#56
#56
I'll throw the record-holder in there

Good ol' Brett

110223_camerondiaz_favre.jpg
 
#57
#57
DaphneVol said:
I'm telling my kids he's the GOAT!

It's hard to win SuperBowls. He has a ring, multiple MVP's, Pro Bowls, and is an outstanding role model. He's the GOAT already. Media will always move the sticks to keep a debate going.
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What things from that list does Brady not have?

The bottom line is that nothing that happens over the next few weeks, or remainder of their careers is likely to end this debate. Both guys are all-time great QB's who's we are lucky to have gotten to watch battle each other through the years. They're pretty much neck and neck right now, with Manning unlikely to match Brady in SB wins, and Brady unlikely to break Manning's individual records. What does it really matter which one is "better", because they both spent most of their careers playing the QB position just as good or better than it ever had been before.
 
#58
#58
99gator said:
On this board, I will get shot for this....but.....

If Brady takes that bunch of trash to the Super Bowl, he's the greatest of all time.

Denver should win this Sunday without much difficulty.
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I will agree with the Brady statement. He has little to no help on offense this season. It's ridiculous how they finished 12-4 and are in the AFC title game.

Denver was up 24-0 on the Patriots earlier this season AT Foxboro. No reason why they should've choked that game away. I just have a strong feeling Peyton's defense will be the Achilles heel once again during the playoffs and the Patriots will escape with a win.

I have no problem with Brady. As of right now, I believe he edges Peyton. Super Bowl rings speak volumes. But also, individually, Peyton has 4 (soon to be 5) season MVPs, and could own all major QB records if he continues to play a couple of more seasons. If Peyton has to hang up the cleats (God forbid) then Brady will win that debate. Peyton HAS to win it all this season. His chances won't get any easier as his career and age progresses.
 
#60
#60
Sith Vol said:
I will agree with the Brady statement. He has little to no help on offense this season. It's ridiculous how they finished 12-4 and are in the AFC title game.

Denver was up 24-0 on the Patriots earlier this season AT Foxboro. No reason why they should've choked that game away. I just have a strong feeling Peyton's defense will be the Achilles heel once again during the playoffs and the Patriots will escape with a win.

I have no problem with Brady. As of right now, I believe he edges Peyton. Super Bowl rings speak volumes. But also, individually, Peyton has 4 (soon to be 5) season MVPs, and could own all major QB records if he continues to play a couple of more seasons. If Peyton has to hang up the cleats (God forbid) then Brady will win that debate. Peyton HAS to win it all this season. His chances won't get any easier as his career and age progresses.
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Why do people not realize that winning a Super Bowl is a TEAM effort...Manning has never had a great defense or a great coach like Brady has had during his 3 wins...too much is put into the Super Bowl wins...it used to be win JUST ONE and your legacy is cemented...now with Peyton he HAS to win TWO OR THREE OR FOUR...his mastery of the game and his intelligence and his RECORDS speak volumes about his greatness...Brady is great too but he is not better than Manning...
 
#61
#61
volinSmyrna said:
Yep...Bill Belichick, QB Guru. I think it is on his business card. How many different QB coaches/OC's has he had? Several.

Personally, I think Brady has done more with less offensively (outside of his oline) than most people ever could. He hasn't had a consistant rb in 6-7 years, and outside of Randy Moss for a couple he has never had a stellar WR corps.

It's this decade's version of the E. Smith/Barry Sanders debate. One has the rushing record and the other has the flash.
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In terms of starting running backs, I agree completely. Peyton had the advantage of playing with Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James at the peak of their respective careers in Indianapolis. The Patriots, however, have often utilized a running back-by-committee approach during this period and a much different picture emerges when you compare team rushing totals, one that more often than not favored New England:

2001: NE 1793 yds. INDY 1966 yds.
2002: NE 1508 yds. INDY 1561 yds.
2003: NE 1607 yds. INDY 1695 yds.
2004: NE 2134 yds. INDY 1852 yds.
2005: NE 1512 yds. INDY 1703 yds.
2006: NE 1969 yds. INDY 1762 yds.
2007: NE 1849 yds. INDY 1706 yds.
2008: NE 2278 yds. INDY 1274 yds. Brady misses almost entire season.
2009: NE 1921 yds. INDY 1294 yds.
2010: NE 1973 yds. INDY 1483 yds.
2011: NE 1764 yds. INDY 1594 yds. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE 2184 yds. DENV 1832 yds.
2013: NE 2065 yds. DENV 1873 yds.

Please note that New England has outrushed teams led by Peyton for the last EIGHT consecutive years. Coupled with data presented previously in this thread (http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/211544-peyton-manning-best-qb-ever.html), does this information suggest a formula for success with which long-time SEC fans are quite familiar? Yes, a strong running game and stout defense is the most reliable foundation for the pursuit of championships.
 
#64
#64
AboveAllNations said:
PS> Joe Montana success was largely a product of Bill Walsh's visionary West Coast offense, and Montana had a vastly superior supporting cast (Rice, Lott, etc) than either Brady or Manning. I would put he and Brett Favre in a distant battle for 3rd-best behind Brady and Manning, IMHO.
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You do realize that Montana won 2 Super Bowls without Rice right? Oh so every other QB except Peyton success is owed to a system? Good Lord. I am a huge Manning fan but you're a little off. Neither Montana or Brady has ever had anything close to what Manning has on offense this year.

I have to ask this question. Why are Peyton's regular season stats so good yet drop off greatly during the playoffs?
 
#66
#66
volfanbill said:
Never once did I say super bowl wins is the only measure. I said it's part of the equation.
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Let me say this as nicely as I can, you sir are an embarrassment to Vol fans everywhere if you are really a Vol fan! Good luck in life ... Perhaps you should just go away and "support" another program. Speaking for Vol fans everywhere, we sure would not mind!
:hi:
 
#67
#67
BigOrangeTrain said:
I have to ask this question. Why are Peyton's regular season stats so good yet drop off greatly during the playoffs?
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Over the last 5 post-seasons where both played (no '11 for Manning or '08 for Brady) Manning completed 66.9% of his passes for just under 299ypg. Brady over his last 5 was 61.2 for 254.4ypg.
 
#72
#72
GoVols15 said:
Let me say this as nicely as I can, you sir are an embarrassment to Vol fans everywhere if you are really a Vol fan! Good luck in life ... Perhaps you should just go away and "support" another program. Speaking for Vol fans everywhere, we sure would not mind!
:hi:
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Because I'm willing to give another qb credit where it's due? Seriously, now that equals a bad fan? The absurdity and homerism of this board gets worse every freaking day.
 
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#73
#73
GoVols15 said:
Let me say this as nicely as I can, you sir are an embarrassment to Vol fans everywhere if you are really a Vol fan! Good luck in life ... Perhaps you should just go away and "support" another program. Speaking for Vol fans everywhere, we sure would not mind!
:hi:
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I don't necessarily agree with volfanbill, but you are out of line with this comment. He's entitled to his opinion - even though it's wrong :p

That does not make him an embarrassment to VOL fans everywhere. He just happens to have a different viewpoint than yourself. Chill out.
 
#74
#74
volfanbill said:
Because I'm willing to give another qb credit where it's due? Seriously, now that equals a bad fan? The absurdity and homerism of this board gets worse every freaking day.
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It doesn't get worse, it's just that sometimes only the mouth breather posts seem to show up.

They hate us for thinking.
 
#75
#75
BigOrangeTrain said:
You do realize that Montana won 2 Super Bowls without Rice right? Oh so every other QB except Peyton success is owed to a system? Good Lord. I am a huge Manning fan but you're a little off. Neither Montana or Brady has ever had anything close to what Manning has on offense this year.

I have to ask this question. Why are Peyton's regular season stats so good yet drop off greatly during the playoffs?
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Montana's 1988-1990 teams would destroy any Patriot or Indy or Denver team. Those teams were absolutely loaded. Rice, Jones, Taylor, Craig, Rathman with Montana at QB. Are you serious? Brady in his record setting year had Moss and Welker. The greatest slot receiver ever and arguably the second best wide receiver ever on the same team. Decker and Thomas are not in the same league with the 49er or Patriot receivers. Welker is not as good as he was and has been hurt much of this year.
 
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