Could the next 2 games decide Manning vs Brady debate?

#102
#102
volfanbill said:
I only went back to 2003, but Peyton has played for 5 top ten scoring defenses, 3 top six, including the best scoring defense in '07. Funny how you don't mention that stuff.
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I really shouldn't have to mention it specifically since it is clearly visible in the data which I provided and you cited. Nevertheless, if you care to look closely, you will see that I specifically stated that "Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense."
 
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#103
#103
Volosaurus rex said:
I really shouldn't have to mention it specifically since it is clearly visible in the data which I provided and you cited. Nevertheless, if you care to look closely, you will see that I specifically stated that "Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense."
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and outside of one of those seasons, he didn't win the big one. So what?
 
#104
#104
thebjd said:
To say Montana didn't have the weapons Manning has is silly was the point. Manning is great because what he does with his offense makes his mediocre offensive weapons good to great. Denver's WR corp would be decent with any other QB and mediocre to poor with a Tebow type QB throwing to them. In all fairness to Montana (who I think is the only real argument against Manning as the greatest ever) Steve Young kept on clicking with that team. Manning nevery had a defense close to the one in San Francisco either. Arguably the greatest secondary unit of all time. The Cowboys teams of the 90's and the Steelers of the 70's are the only teams from a talent standpoint that could stay on the field with them.
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Got it - I missed where somebody made a ridiculous claim that Montana had inferior talent around him.
 
#106
#106
volfanbill said:
Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I did. The faulty logic of Peyton's defenses never being any good is what this entire last page entails. Someone like Marvin Harrison, Decker and D. Thomas have either always played with Peyton or had extremely short NFL careers thus far so I showed how they lit it up in college. I never said he had an advantage on talent around him, I just said too many act like he has never had talent around him. That's simply not true.
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He didn't have good defenses early in his career. That's an obvious fact. Did you just say Eric Decker BTW?
 
#107
#107
Manning's regular season numbers are impressive beyond belief. But it's also hard to overlook that playoff record, which for someone with his legacy, is frankly pretty terrible. I know people are going to resort to the same tired arguments that it's a team sport and his teammates consistently let him down. Given that being a theme throughout his career, even going back to college, he's either the single unluckiest person in the world because no matter who he has around him, it always seems to happen, or there's something to him not having it in big games.

Bottom line for me is this, if I'm picking a team of guys who need to run up points and yards against inferior competition, I'm taking Manning. He delivers almost every time in that scenario. If it's a game I absolutely have to win against equal or nearly equal competition, I'll look elsewhere at QB.
 
#108
#108
Honestly, I hate these debates as they are all so hypothetical. Statistically, nobody has played the position better than Peyton. In terms of championships, Brady is in the upper echelon of all time with only Bradshaw and Montana ahead of him.

They are BOTH hall of fame quarterbacks and there is no right or wrong answer as to who is better. It's fun to debate, but let's all appreciate the fact that we are witnessing two of the best to ever play the position and we won't get to see them or debate this for too much longer :cray:
 
#110
#110
volfanbill said:
so since '06, the numbers of great defenses winning Super Bowl has taken an ABSOLUTE nosedive. Average of 14.28, aka mediocre. Huh. Kinda absolutely destroys that "statistical outlier" of Peyton leading an awful defense to the Super Bowl title theory doesn't it?
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Not in the slightest. If you want to preferentially give greater credence to analysis of only the last six years, while completely disregarding the previous 41, that is your prerogative but I am not going down that road. Besides, I would not be the least bit surprised to see Seattle or San Francisco, who finished 1st and 3rd, respectively, in scoring defense, win this Super Bowl, in which case we are right back on track with scoring defense as a predictor of success in the Super Bowl.
 
#111
#111
Volosaurus rex said:
Not in the slightest. If you want to preferentially give greater credence to analysis of only the last six years, while completely disregarding the previous 41, that is your prerogative but I am not going down that road. Besides, I would not be the least bit surprised to see Seattle or San Francisco, who finished 1st and 3rd, respectively, in scoring defense, win this Super Bowl, in which case we are right back on track with scoring defense as a predictor of success in the Super Bowl.
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Honestly I'll be surprised if Seattle or SF don't win the SB. They should be able to take either of the AFC teams.
 
#112
#112
bleedorange0037 said:
It's also mind blowing that someone can watch Tom Brady play QB for almost 15 years and not recognize he's one if the best to ever play the position.
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He's a great QB no doubt. He has been great for 7 or 8 years now. The problem is that people want to claim he is better than Peyton based solely on SBs, and playoff record. The fact is though, that he wasn't great when he actually winning these super bowls. He became great after that. And his playoff record since he actually played the position at a HOF level is very similar to Manning's.
 
#115
#115
Volosaurus rex said:
Not in the slightest. If you want to preferentially give greater credence to analysis of only the last six years, while completely disregarding the previous 41, that is your prerogative but I am not going down that road. Besides, I would not be the least bit surprised to see Seattle or San Francisco, who finished 1st and 3rd, respectively, in scoring defense, win this Super Bowl, in which case we are right back on track with scoring defense as a predictor of success in the Super Bowl.
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It's easy to give greater credence to the last six years, because they've played those six seasons and the amount of passes per game has risen EXPONENTIALLY in those six season compared to the other 41. But ignore that.

I go back to what I said very early in this thread. It's impossible to determine the GOAT because Montana, Marino, Starr, Unitas, etc didn't play in this kind of era. It's also easy to take away the last six years as different because of how many rights and abilities have been taken away from defenses to make scoring a priority. It's a completely different game from the '80s.
 
#118
#118
volfanbill said:
It's easy to give greater credence to the last six years, because they've played those six seasons and the amount of passes per game has risen EXPONENTIALLY in those six season compared to the other 41. But ignore that.

I go back to what I said very early in this thread. It's impossible to determine the GOAT because Montana, Marino, Starr, Unitas, etc didn't play in this kind of era. It's also easy to take away the last six years as different because of how many rights and abilities have been taken away from defenses to make scoring a priority. It's a completely different game from the '80s.
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And all these changes is what makes the argument that Manning is the greatest simply because of his stats and records so dumb. The fact of the matter is that the passing records just don't mean what they once did due to the changes in the game. I won't be surprised if both Manning's single season TD and yardage records are broken within the next 3-5 years.

Speaking of rule changes, I just remember how lost Manning and the Colts looked that year in New England where the hand checking was still allowed on WR's. So much so they spent the offseason whining about it and got the rules changed.
 
#119
#119
BOP said:
Is Peyton Manning going to retire this year or is Brees going to play til he is 45?
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I think at most Peyton plays through next year. Brees has no signs of slowing down. He probably has five years left. Every piece of the NO offense is designed to make that player a weapon for Drew Brees to use. There RBs are even used as receivers as much if not more than they are to run the ball. He's also insanely efficient with the ball for being such a gunslinger.
 
#120
#120
bleedorange0037 said:
And all these changes is what makes the argument that Manning is the greatest simply because of his stats and records so dumb. The fact of the matter is that the passing records just don't mean what they once did due to the changes in the game. I won't be surprised if both Manning's single season TD and yardage records are broken within the next 3-5 years.

Speaking of rule changes, I just remember how lost Manning and the Colts looked that year in New England where the hand checking was still allowed on WR's. So much so they spent the offseason whining about it and got the rules changed.
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They might not mean he is the greatest but how do they not mean he is better than Brady?
 
#121
#121
volfanbill said:
I think at most Peyton plays through next year. Brees has no signs of slowing down. He probably has five years left. Every piece of the NO offense is designed to make that player a weapon for Drew Brees to use. There RBs are even used as receivers as much if not more than they are to run the ball. He's also insanely efficient with the ball for being such a gunslinger.
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Is Peyton Manning showing signs of slowing down? How ridiculous. The fact you think brees is efficient says it all.
 
#122
#122
The Manning playoff myth is almost as large as the brady playoff myth. Manning has a better playoff QBR.
 
#123
#123
BOP said:
The Manning playoff myth is almost as large as the brady playoff myth. Manning has a better play QB rating as a matter of fact.
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The QB rating is all well and good, but the one stat that can't be measured simply in numbers is Manning's penchant for making backbreaking mistakes. That's been a running theme as long as I've watched him play. It happened in the SB with the Saints, at least a couple other playoff games through his career, and he buried UT with pick 6's in both the '96 and '97 UF games.
 
#124
#124
BOP said:
Is Peyton Manning showing signs of slowing down? How ridiculous. The fact you think brees is efficient says it all.
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How is Brees not efficient? And Peyton has even hinted he's not going to play much longer.
 
#125
#125
Correction, Manning didn't actually throw a pick-6 against UF in '96. The play that went back for a TD was actually a fumble. He did however throw two other interceptions that have the Gators the ball less than 25 yards from the endzone.
 
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