Could the next 2 games decide Manning vs Brady debate?

[thebjd]

In terms of starting running backs, I agree completely. Peyton had the advantage of playing with Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James at the peak of their respective careers in Indianapolis. The Patriots, however, have often utilized a running back-by-committee approach during this period and a much different picture emerges when you compare team rushing totals, one that more often than not favored New England:

2001: NE 1793 yds. INDY 1966 yds.
2002: NE 1508 yds. INDY 1561 yds.
2003: NE 1607 yds. INDY 1695 yds.
2004: NE 2134 yds. INDY 1852 yds.
2005: NE 1512 yds. INDY 1703 yds.
2006: NE 1969 yds. INDY 1762 yds.
2007: NE 1849 yds. INDY 1706 yds.
2008: NE 2278 yds. INDY 1274 yds. Brady misses almost entire season.
2009: NE 1921 yds. INDY 1294 yds.
2010: NE 1973 yds. INDY 1483 yds.
2011: NE 1764 yds. INDY 1594 yds. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE 2184 yds. DENV 1832 yds.
2013: NE 2065 yds. DENV 1873 yds.

Please note that New England has outrushed teams led by Peyton for the last EIGHT consecutive years. Coupled with data presented previously in this thread (http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/211544-peyton-manning-best-qb-ever.html), does this information suggest a formula for success with which long-time SEC fans are quite familiar? Yes, a strong running game and stout defense is the most reliable foundation for the pursuit of championships.

Corey Dillon was very good for a while at New England. Faulk barely played any with Manning and Edge sucked when he left Indy. The play action game and stretch plays helped Edge a lot and we now see Moreno being a decent back. Teams cannot bite on the play action. Peyton is the best ever at that and it gives his backs an advantage.

 

[jps2194]

Montana's 1988-1990 teams would destroy any Patriot or Indy or Denver team. Those teams were absolutely loaded. Rice, Jones, Taylor, Craig, Rathman with Montana at QB. Are you serious? Brady in his record setting year had Moss and Welker. The greatest slot receiver ever and arguably the second best wide receiver ever on the same team. Decker and Thomas are not in the same league with the 49er or Patriot receivers. Welker is not as good as he was and has been hurt much of this year.

I'm with you on most of what you are saying but which Thomas are you referring to, Demaryius or Julian? If you are referring to Demaryius Thomas then I disagree. He is an absolute stud and is as good as any 49er receiver with the exception of Rice.

As a unit, the Denver receivers are very good. Of course, Peyton makes them look very good. If I remember correctly, it's the first time there have been multiple receivers (maybe it was 3 or more) with 10 TD's a piece during the regular season and I believe 4 of them had at least 10. You don't get distribution like that unless they are very good. Otherwise teams would scheme to take away the best receivers but you can't do that against Denver.

 

[volfanbill]

In terms of starting running backs, I agree completely. Peyton had the advantage of playing with Marshall Faulk and Edgerrin James at the peak of their respective careers in Indianapolis. The Patriots, however, have often utilized a running back-by-committee approach during this period and a much different picture emerges when you compare team rushing totals, one that more often than not favored New England:

2001: NE 1793 yds. INDY 1966 yds.
2002: NE 1508 yds. INDY 1561 yds.
2003: NE 1607 yds. INDY 1695 yds.
2004: NE 2134 yds. INDY 1852 yds.
2005: NE 1512 yds. INDY 1703 yds.
2006: NE 1969 yds. INDY 1762 yds.
2007: NE 1849 yds. INDY 1706 yds.
2008: NE 2278 yds. INDY 1274 yds. Brady misses almost entire season.
2009: NE 1921 yds. INDY 1294 yds.
2010: NE 1973 yds. INDY 1483 yds.
2011: NE 1764 yds. INDY 1594 yds. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE 2184 yds. DENV 1832 yds.
2013: NE 2065 yds. DENV 1873 yds.

Please note that New England has outrushed teams led by Peyton for the last EIGHT consecutive years. Coupled with data presented previously in this thread (http://www.volnation.com/forum/tennessee-vols-football/211544-peyton-manning-best-qb-ever.html), does this information suggest a formula for success with which long-time SEC fans are quite familiar? Yes, a strong running game and stout defense is the most reliable foundation for the pursuit of championships.

What are the difference is Rush attempts by the team? What is the average YPC? Peyton led teams are always pass first and second and then default to the run if absolutely necessary. I think part of what makes Brady/Belichek led teams are they run a more balanced offense and keep teams on their toes. You can't be one dimensional and win a lot. Even with James/Faulk and Addai, the Colts overlooked them at the run quite often. Stats are pretty and are certainly part of the equation just like Super Bowl wins (QBs get win/loss records for a reason), but just like Super Bowls, they aren't the end all, be all of the discussion. A lot of times I think Manning outthinks himself and tries to do too much.

And please note, as many do understand, but some don't. I'm not taking away from Peyton's accomplishments. He has one of the most storied and fabled careers of a quarterback. He is a FANTASTIC quarterback and worthy of all the praise heaped upon him. But his nemesis is and always will be Tom Brady and in my humble opinion, I'd rather have Tom Brady taking snaps for me if it was a must win game.

 

[thebjd]

I'm with you on most of what you are saying but which Thomas are you referring to, Demaryius or Julian? If you are referring to Demaryius Thomas then I disagree. He is an absolute stud and is as good as any 49er receiver with the exception of Rice.

As a unit, the Denver receivers are very good. Of course, Peyton makes them look very good. If I remember correctly, it's the first time there have been multiple receivers (maybe it was 3 or more) with 10 TD's a piece during the regular season and I believe 4 of them had at least 10. You don't get distribution like that unless they are very good. Otherwise teams would scheme to take away the best receivers but you can't do that against Denver.

Julian Thomas vs Brent Jones. John Taylor vs Eric Decker. Jerry Rice vs Demaryius Thomas. Roger Craig vs Knowshon Moreno. Rathman is just a bonus because of the split back set the 49ers ran. That is just the offense. On Defense the 49er advantage gets huge. Haley, Lott, Turner, Millen, Holt, ***an etc. Mike Holmgren, Bill Walsh, George Seifert weren't bad coaches either

 

[jps2194]

And please note, as many do understand, but some don't. I'm not taking away from Peyton's accomplishments. He has one of the most storied and fabled careers of a quarterback. He is a FANTASTIC quarterback and worthy of all the praise heaped upon him. But his nemesis is and always will be Tom Brady and in my humble opinion, I'd rather have Tom Brady taking snaps for me if it was a must win game.

They each have their strengths and weaknesses and I would be fine with either. However, I definitely would take whichever one is playing for Belichick. He's a genius...

 

[508mikey]

Noticed people are talking about a possibility Peyton might not be able to return next year. If this is the case, would either QB winning the SB this year and beating the other this week put him ahead of the other?

No = did you happen to see Denvers DBs yesterday -- they suck

 

[jps2194]

Julian Thomas vs Brent Jones. John Taylor vs Eric Decker. Jerry Rice vs Demaryius Thomas. Roger Craig vs Knowshon Moreno. Rathman is just a bonus because of the split back set the 49ers ran. That is just the offense. On Defense the 49er advantage gets huge. Haley, Lott, Turner, Millen, Holt, ***an etc.

I get what you are saying - but compare them at the same point in their careers. Where was Brent Jones after his third year in the NFL? If you look at their stats, Julius had a much better year than Brent did in year 3.
Brent - 40 rec, 500 yds, 4 TD
Julius - 65 rec, 788 yds, 12 TD

I'm not disputing the 49ers had a legendary team and was probably one of the most talented teams of all time. That really isn't a fair comparison, but nevertheless, Denver's receiving corp is extremely good as a unit and very good individually.

Honestly, I'm not real clear the point you are trying to make. Are you saying Peyton is great because he has mediocre talent? Clear it up for me

 

[volfanbill]

also, just to clear up some misconceptions:

Based on Yards/Game and Points/Game, Peyton has been on 7 top 15 defenses since 2003. Brady has been on 6 top 15 defenses. Brady has statistically had a better defense in 5 of those years ('10, '09, '06, '04 and '03), Manning a better defense in 4 of those years ('13, '12, '07 and '05). I am not counting '11 and '08.

Edit: Just because I'm bored. Both '11 and '08 (when one of the two weren't playing) are almost statistical washes, with NE maybe having the slightest edge in '11.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

Because I'm willing to give another qb credit where it's due? Seriously, now that equals a bad fan? The absurdity and homerism of this board gets worse every freaking day.

No kidding. I have been bashed for giving Tom Brady respect. I don't see why you cannot give another QB credit besides Manning.

 

[thebjd]

I get what you are saying - but compare them at the same point in their careers. Where was Brent Jones after his third year in the NFL? If you look at their stats, Julius had a much better year than Brent did in year 3.
Brent - 40 rec, 500 yds, 4 TD
Julius - 65 rec, 788 yds, 12 TD

I'm not disputing the 49ers had a legendary team and was probably one of the most talented teams of all time. That really isn't a fair comparison, but nevertheless, Denver's receiving corp is extremely good as a unit and very good individually.

Honestly, I'm not real clear the point you are trying to make. Are you saying Peyton is great because he has mediocre talent? Clear it up for me

To say Montana didn't have the weapons Manning has is silly was the point. Manning is great because what he does with his offense makes his mediocre offensive weapons good to great. Denver's WR corp would be decent with any other QB and mediocre to poor with a Tebow type QB throwing to them. In all fairness to Montana (who I think is the only real argument against Manning as the greatest ever) Steve Young kept on clicking with that team. Manning nevery had a defense close to the one in San Francisco either. Arguably the greatest secondary unit of all time. The Cowboys teams of the 90's and the Steelers of the 70's are the only teams from a talent standpoint that could stay on the field with them.

 

[thebjd]

I get what you are saying - but compare them at the same point in their careers. Where was Brent Jones after his third year in the NFL? If you look at their stats, Julius had a much better year than Brent did in year 3.
Brent - 40 rec, 500 yds, 4 TD
Julius - 65 rec, 788 yds, 12 TD

I'm not disputing the 49ers had a legendary team and was probably one of the most talented teams of all time. That really isn't a fair comparison, but nevertheless, Denver's receiving corp is extremely good as a unit and very good individually.

Honestly, I'm not real clear the point you are trying to make. Are you saying Peyton is great because he has mediocre talent? Clear it up for me

Volnation will not let me type the name Kevin ***an. Nice.

 

[ajvol01]

Funny how most of these offensive weapons were no names 3 yrs ago.

Peyton makes everyone better. It is a fact.

 

[thebjd]

No kidding. I have been bashed for giving Tom Brady respect. I don't see why you cannot give another QB credit besides Manning.

Brady is an all time great. No doubt.

 

[volfanbill]

Funny how most of these offensive weapons were no names 3 yrs ago.

Peyton makes everyone better. It is a fact.

D. Thomas is in his fourth year. He was a first round draft pick. Erick Decker is also just a fourth year player. Decker caught over 1k yards as a junior and was one of the elite college WRs his senior year before he went down with a season ending foot injury. Wes Welker is arguably one of the two best slot receivers of all time. WTF are you talking about?

 

[Volosaurus rex]

also, just to clear up some misconceptions:

Based on Yards/Game and Points/Game, Peyton has been on 7 top 15 defenses since 2003. Brady has been on 6 top 15 defenses. Brady has statistically had a better defense in 5 of those years ('10, '09, '06, '04 and '03), Manning a better defense in 4 of those years ('13, '12, '07 and '05). I am not counting '11 and '08.

Edit: Just because I'm bored. Both '11 and '08 (when one of the two weren't playing) are almost statistical washes, with NE maybe having the slightest edge in '11.

A more insightful comparison may not be the number of top 10 (or top 15, for that matter) defenses each quarterback played with but, rather, the relative distance in scoring defense between the two quarterbacks’ teams and how that correlated to success on a year-to-year basis. Beginning with 2001, when Brady became the starting quarterback for New England, we see the following:

2001: NE (6th), 272 points; INDY (31st), 486 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 6-10.
2002: NE (17th), 346 points; INDY (7th), 313 points. INDY finishes 10-6, NE 9-7.
2003: NE (1st), 238 points; INDY (20th), 336 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 12-4.
2004: NE (2nd), 260 points; INDY (19th), 351 points. NE wins Super Bowl, INDY finishes 12-4.
2005: NE (17th), 338 points; INDY (2nd), 247 points. INDY finishes 14-2, NE finishes 10-6.
2006: NE (2nd), 237 points; INDY (23rd), 360 points. Both teams finish 12-4. INDY wins Super Bowl.
2007: NE (4th), 274 points; INDY (1st), 262 points. NE finishes 16-0, INDY finishes 13-3.
2008: NE (8th), 309 points; INDY (7th), 298 points. NE finishes 11-5, INDY finishes 12-4. Brady was injured in opener and missed the rest of season.
2009: NE (5th), 285 points; INDY (8th), 307 points. NE finishes 10-6, INDY finishes 14-2.
2010: NE (8th), 313 points; INDY (23rd), 388 points. NE finishes 14-2, INDY finishes 10-6.
2011: NE (15th), 342 points; INDY (28th), 430 points. NE finishes 13-3, INDY finishes 2-14. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE (9th), 331 points; Denver (4th), 289 points. NE finishes 12-4, Denver finishes 13-3.
2013: NE (9th), 318 points; Denver (22nd), 385 points. NE is currently 11-4 and Denver is currently 12-3.

What can we conclude from this data? New England’s three Super Bowl victories during the Brady era were supported by defenses that ranked 6th, 1st and 2nd, respectively. Peyton’s one Super Bowl ring, on the other hand, is a true statistical outlier; it was won despite a defense that ranked 23rd in scoring defense.

Brady has never played with a defense ranked lower than 17th in this category; he has enjoyed the support of ten top 10 defenses and 6 top six defenses. From 2001 until the present, the Patriots’ average defensive ranking in this category has been 7.9.

Defensive rankings of teams that Peyton has quarterbacked have been much more variable. Their average ranking throughout this period has been 15th, but this does not begin to tell the whole picture. Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense.

There is no question that Peyton and Brady are the two best quarterbacks of their generation. Because of the hit-or-miss nature of defenses he has played with, Peyton has had to directly shoulder more of the responsibility for the success of his teams than Brady has over the course of his career. You can nitpick as to who individually is the better clutch performer over various portions of their respective careers, but you can also find supporting evidence here for the oldest fundamental truth in football. Even when you are talking about QBs as great as these two, defense wins championships.

 

[volfanbill]

A more insightful comparison may not be the number of top 10 (or top 15, for that matter) defenses each quarterback played with but, rather, the relative distance in scoring defense between the two quarterbacks’ teams and how that correlated to success on a year-to-year basis. Beginning with 2001, when Brady became the starting quarterback for New England, we see the following:

2001: NE (6th), 272 points; INDY (31st), 486 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 6-10.
2002: NE (17th), 346 points; INDY (7th), 313 points. INDY finishes 10-6, NE 9-7.
2003: NE (1st), 238 points; INDY (20th), 336 points. NE wins Super Bowl. INDY finishes 12-4.
2004: NE (2nd), 260 points; INDY (19th), 351 points. NE wins Super Bowl, INDY finishes 12-4.
2005: NE (17th), 338 points; INDY (2nd), 247 points. INDY finishes 14-2, NE finishes 10-6.
2006: NE (2nd), 237 points; INDY (23rd), 360 points. Both teams finish 12-4. INDY wins Super Bowl.
2007: NE (4th), 274 points; INDY (1st), 262 points. NE finishes 16-0, INDY finishes 13-3.
2008: NE (8th), 309 points; INDY (7th), 298 points. NE finishes 11-5, INDY finishes 12-4. Brady was injured in opener and missed the rest of season.
2009: NE (5th), 285 points; INDY (8th), 307 points. NE finishes 10-6, INDY finishes 14-2.
2010: NE (8th), 313 points; INDY (23rd), 388 points. NE finishes 14-2, INDY finishes 10-6.
2011: NE (15th), 342 points; INDY (28th), 430 points. NE finishes 13-3, INDY finishes 2-14. Manning misses entire season.
2012: NE (9th), 331 points; Denver (4th), 289 points. NE finishes 12-4, Denver finishes 13-3.
2013: NE (9th), 318 points; Denver (22nd), 385 points. NE is currently 11-4 and Denver is currently 12-3.

What can we conclude from this data? New England’s three Super Bowl victories during the Brady era were supported by defenses that ranked 6th, 1st and 2nd, respectively. Peyton’s one Super Bowl ring, on the other hand, is a true statistical outlier; it was won despite a defense that ranked 23rd in scoring defense.

Brady has never played with a defense ranked lower than 17th in this category; he has enjoyed the support of ten top 10 defenses and 6 top six defenses. From 2001 until the present, the Patriots’ average defensive ranking in this category has been 7.9.

Defensive rankings of teams that Peyton has quarterbacked have been much more variable. Their average ranking throughout this period has been 15th, but this does not begin to tell the whole picture. Peyton has enjoyed the support of six top ten defenses and three top five defenses; he also has been saddled with six defenses, including the present one, which have ranked 20th or lower in scoring defense.

There is no question that Peyton and Brady are the two best quarterbacks of their generation. Because of the hit-or-miss nature of defenses he has played with, Peyton has had to directly shoulder more of the responsibility for the success of his teams than Brady has over the course of his career. You can nitpick as to who individually is the better clutch performer over various portions of their respective careers, but you can also find supporting evidence here for the oldest fundamental truth in football. Even when you are talking about QBs as great as these two, defense wins championships.

I only went back to 2003, but Peyton has played for 5 top ten scoring defenses, 3 top six, including the best scoring defense in '07. Funny how you don't mention that stuff.

 

[BOP]

I'm not moving any goal posts, but if the Peyton sunshine pumpers get to parade around using the more with less excuse, Brady gets to use it now. And regardless of how this season shakes out, Brady will still have more rings come March. There are arguments made for both qbs that are very, very good as far as GOAT. I still put Joe Montana there personally, but if I had to take either Brady or Manning for one must win game, I'm picking Brady.

inb4 someone claims I'm not a V4L.

There is no argument for Brady being the best of all time. The argument seems to be centered around him vs Peyton in his case. Manning is the one in contention for GOAT. The whole super bowl argument is a bit laughable. Go back and watch some of brady in 01, 03 and 04. He was nothing remotely resembling an elite QB. He became elite late. We are going to give a guy greatest of all time consideration who won 3 super bowls in his first 4 years when he wasn't even elite and then never won one again? OK. I love how you omit the MVPs as if that is not infinitely more relevant in this case. Gtfo

 

[TheDeeble]

I only went back to 2003, but Peyton has played for 5 top ten defenses, 3 top six, including the best scoring defense in '07. Funny how you don't mention that stuff.

Brady also didn't have the quality rbs or wrs that Manning had in Indy.

 

[Volosaurus rex]

We are all aware that you don't need a great quarterback to win a Super Bowl; sometimes a good QB isn't even a necessity. What you do need is a strong defense. Indeed, I would argue that the single greatest predictor of Super Bowl success is scoring defense. Let us see how all 47 Super Bowl champions ranked in this category:

1966 Green Bay 1st (163 pts., 14-game regular season until 1978)
1967 Green Bay 3rd (209 pts.)
1968 New York Jets (280 pts; would have been 10th if the 26 teams in the NFL and AFL had been merged that year).

1969 Kansas City 1st (in AFL with 177 pts.; would have been 2nd if the 26 teams in the NFL and AFL had been merged that year)

1970 Baltimore Colts 7th (234 pts.)
1971 Dallas 7th (222 pts.)
1972 Miami 1st (171 pts.)
1973 Miami 1st (150 pts.)
1974 Pittsburgh 2nd (189 pts.)
1975 Pittsburgh 2nd (162 pts.)
1976 Oakland 12th (237 pts. In 28-team NFL)
1977 Dallas 8th (212 pts.)
1978 Pittsburgh 1st (195 pts. Regular season is lengthened to 16 games)
1979 Pittsburgh 7th (262 pts.)

1980 Oakland 10th (306 pts.)
1981 San Francisco 2nd (250 pts.)
1982 Washington 1st (128 pts. in a strike-shortened, nine-game season)
1983 Los Angeles Raiders 13th (338 pts.)
1984 San Francisco 1st (227 pts.)
1985 Chicago 1st (198 pts.)
1986 New York Giants 2nd (236 pts.)
1987 Washington 6th (285 points)
1988 San Francisco 8th (294 pts.)
1989 San Francisco 3rd (253 pts.)

1990 New York Giants 1st (211 pts.)
1991 Washington 2nd (224 pts.)
1992 Dallas 5th (243 pts.)
1993 Dallas 2nd (229 pts.)
1994 San Francisco 6th (296 points)
1995 Dallas 3rd (291 pts. NFL expands to 30 teams)
1996 Green Bay 1st (210 pts.)
1997 Denver 7th (287 pts.)
1998 Denver 9th (309 pts.)
1999 St. Louis 4th (242 pts.)

2000 Baltimore Ravens 1st (165 pts.)
2001 New England 6th (272 pts.)
2002 Tampa Bay 1st (196 pts. NFL expands to 32 teams)
2003 New England 1st (238 pts.)
2004 New England 2nd (260 pts.)
2005 Pittsburgh 4th (258 pts.)
2006 Indianapolis 23rd (360 pts.)
2007 New York Giants 17th (351 pts.)
2008 Pittsburgh 1st (223 pts.)
2009 New Orleans 20th (341 pts.)
2010 Green Bay 2nd (240 pts.)
2011 New York Giants 25th (400 pts.)
2012 Baltimore Ravens 12th (344 pts.)

All data were excerpted from Pro-Football-Reference.com - Pro Football Statistics and History. 33 Super Bowl-winning teams, ones with highly variable levels of quarterback play, finished in the top quartile in scoring defense and 25 of them finished in the top five (or better) in this category. These data would strongly urge me, if I was an NFL owner or General Manager, to devote my resources, first and foremost, to building a rock-ribbed defense. If you are going to use a single predictor for success in the Super Bowl, mine would be scoring defense.

 

[volfanbill]

Brady also didn't have the quality rbs or wrs that Manning had in Indy.

It's blind homerism. I'm not bashing either careers, but it's mind blowing how so many of those that would say Peyton is the GOAT act like he's had nothing but garbage all around him. Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Joseph Addai, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, D. Thomas, Erick Decker were all garbage, despite the great stats they produced in college and before or after they split with Peyton. Oh and Wes Welker has lost his touch now.

 

[volfanbill]

2006 Indianapolis 23rd (360 pts.)
2007 New York Giants 17th (351 pts.)
2008 Pittsburgh 1st (223 pts.)
2009 New Orleans 20th (341 pts.)
2010 Green Bay 2nd (240 pts.)
2011 New York Giants 25th (400 pts.)
2012 Baltimore Ravens 12th (344 pts.)

so since '06, the numbers of great defenses winning Super Bowl has taken an ABSOLUTE nosedive. Average of 14.28, aka mediocre. Huh. Kinda absolutely destroys that "statistical outlier" of Peyton leading an awful defense to the Super Bowl title theory doesn't it?

 

[BOP]

It's blind homerism. I'm not bashing either careers, but it's mind blowing how so many of those that would say Peyton is the GOAT act like he's had nothing but garbage all around him. Marshall Faulk, Edgerrin James, Joseph Addai, Marvin Harrison, Reggie Wayne, Pierre Garcon, D. Thomas, Erick Decker were all garbage, despite the great stats they produced in college and before or after they split with Peyton. Oh and Wes Welker has lost his touch now.

Its mind blowing that people can watch the two players play the game over the course of their careers and not see that one guy has played it at a COMPLETELY different level. I love how you speak of college stats. If brady had been a good college qb he wouldn't have been drafted by the new england patriots and then luck into a job with the best team in the NFL and win 3 SBs as an AVERAGE NFL QB before developing into a great QB and winning NONE. You are talking about WRs and RBs. Small, if any advantage to Peyton. How about looking at the LBs, secondaries, and DTs the 2 played with when Brady was winning all these SBs.

 

[BOP]

so since '06, the numbers of great defenses winning Super Bowl has taken an ABSOLUTE nosedive. Average of 14.28, aka mediocre. Huh. Kinda absolutely destroys that "statistical outlier" of Peyton leading an awful defense to the Super Bowl title theory doesn't it?

Which is exactly why tom brady hasn't won a SB. You are learning now.

 

[bleedorange0037]

Its mind blowing that people can watch the two players play the game over the course of their careers and not see that one guy has played it at a COMPLETELY different level. I love how you speak of college stats. If brady had been a good college qb he wouldn't have been drafted by the new england patriots and then luck into a job with the best team in the NFL and win 3 SBs as an AVERAGE NFL QB before developing into a great QB and winning NONE. You are talking about WRs and RBs. Small, if any advantage to Peyton. How about looking at the LBs, secondaries, and DTs the 2 played with when Brady was winning all these SBs.

It's also mind blowing that someone can watch Tom Brady play QB for almost 15 years and not recognize he's one if the best to ever play the position.

 

[volfanbill]

Its mind blowing that people can watch the two players play the game over the course of their careers and not see that one guy has played it at a COMPLETELY different level. I love how you speak of college stats. If brady had been a good college qb he wouldn't have been drafted by the new england patriots and then luck into a job with the best team in the NFL and win 3 SBs as an AVERAGE NFL QB before developing into a great QB and winning NONE. You are talking about WRs and RBs. Small, if any advantage to Peyton. How about looking at the LBs, secondaries, and DTs the 2 played with when Brady was winning all these SBs.

Uhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh. I did. The faulty logic of Peyton's defenses never being any good is what this entire last page entails. Someone like Marvin Harrison, Decker and D. Thomas have either always played with Peyton or had extremely short NFL careers thus far so I showed how they lit it up in college. I never said he had an advantage on talent around him, I just said too many act like he has never had talent around him. That's simply not true.