Court Orders Dissolution of Trump Org

#326
#326
davethevol said:
It’s ok for you put the value you think it’s worth, and then it’s up to the lender to assess that value and determine if they think it’s fair before lending.
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I've never worked for a bank but many years ago I worked for a consumer finance company. If someone wanted to borrow money against equity they had in their house, we sent a real estate guy out to check out and appraise the house using our own valuation to determine to make the loan or not against the house. We did not take potential borrower's "word" for it we checked out everything, verified employment, required check stubs, bank statement, credit reports, etc, etc.
 
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#327
#327
jmacvols1 said:
I've never worked for a bank but many years ago I worked for a consumer finance company. If someone wanted to borrow money against equity they had in their house, we sent a real estate guy out to check out and appraise the house using our own valuation to determine to make the loan or not against the house. We did not take potential borrower's "word" for it we checked out everything, verified employment, required check stubs, bank statement, credit reports, etc, etc.
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That’s how it is supposed to work.
 
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#328
#328
davethevol said:
It’s ok for you put the value you think it’s worth, and then it’s up to the lender to assess that value and determine if they think it’s fair before lending.
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I can put a good faith estimate on there. I can't take a recent appraisal or an Etrade account and adjust it by 500%...
 
#330
#330
davethevol said:
That’s how it is supposed to work.
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....without a crooked judge sticking his nose in a loan both the lender and borrow agreed to...and where the loan was paid back with interest and the bank made money not defrauded of money.
 
#331
#331
hog88 said:
Completely different situations, you know this.
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No it's not. It's illegal to willfully and knowingly fill out either forms incorrectly. It's impractical for FAFSA to do 100% audit of tens of millions filing for aid just like it would be impractical for a bank to do a 100% forensic audit on Trump. Depending on how the forms are filled out, I could get a benefit if they are filled out falsely...
 
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#333
#333
BigOrangeMojo said:
No it's not. It's illegal to willfully and knowingly fill out either forms incorrectly. It's impractical for FAFSA to do 100% audit of tens of millions filing for aid just like it would be impractical for a bank to do a 100% forensic audit on Trump. Depending on how the forms are filled out, I could get a benefit if they are filled out falsely...
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We're not talking about chump change here, Trump is borrowing millions not a few thousand so any financial institution lending a single borrower billions without doing a thorough due diligence is negligent.

As the old saying goes if you owe the bank $100 grand you have a problem, if you owe the bank $100 million they have a problem.
 
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#334
#334
BigOrangeMojo said:
No it's not. It's illegal to willfully and knowingly fill out either forms incorrectly. It's impractical for FAFSA to do 100% audit of tens of millions filing for aid just like it would be impractical for a bank to do a 100% forensic audit on Trump. Depending on how the forms are filled out, I could get a benefit if they are filled out falsely...
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didn't they say the forms he filled out had a disclaimer regarding the valuations??? I'll try to find where read that...IMO if the judge is going this route, then let it be argued then apply is equally to all investors and businesses. The issue is that it is rarely applied and the judgement of dissolve his businesses is unprecedented...fine him..sure...also the judge trying to apply thing beyond the SOl before correcting himself if a dead giveaway to a political prosecution.
 
#335
#335
hog88 said:
We're not talking about chump change here, Trump is borrowing millions not a few thousand so any financial institution lending a single borrower billions without doing a thorough due diligence is negligent.

As the old saying goes if you owe the bank $100 grand you have a problem, if you owe the bank $100 million they have a problem.
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It would complete transparency, several months and several million dollars to do a full forensic audit of Trump every time he wanted to borrow money.

The reason for these laws is to prevent gridlock and double digit rates everything someone wanted to borrow money (whether it be for FAFSA or to buy property).
 
#336
#336
whodeycin85 said:
didn't they say the forms he filled out had a disclaimer regarding the valuations??? I'll try to find where read that...IMO if the judge is going this route, then let it be argued then apply is equally to all investors and businesses. The issue is that it is rarely applied and the judgement of dissolve his businesses is unprecedented...fine him..sure...also the judge trying to apply thing beyond the SOl before correcting himself if a dead giveaway to a political prosecution.
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The SOL is an issue for sure and using property tax appraisals for Mar A Lago is as well. I've stated this throughout.

But its beyond me for an appraiser that I hired to tell me something is worth $160MM and then I turn around and say it's worth $700MM. I can't defend or even rationalize this...
 
#337
#337
jmacvols1 said:
But there was no fraud that took place, hence no victims of fraud. The banks made loans to Trump based on the bank's own estimation (not the judge's personal estimation) of the value of collateral and the bank got paid the loan back with interest. No crime, no fraud...nothing. Is the judge going to go through all the loans of left wing developers in NY to make sure they never overvalued property based on the judges's on personal estimation of what he thinks property should be valued at??

If you want to see what real bank fraud is about then look up the bank fraud committed by Jane Sanders, Bernie Sanders wife, and the loan she secured for the university that she was President of and how the loan went bad and the university shut down under great debt. Bernie used his position as Senator to pressure the bank to make the loan.

www.burlingtonfreepress.com

The unraveling of Jane Sanders' Burlington College legacy

Jane O'Meara Sanders, wife of Sen. Bernie Sanders, led Burlington College through a time of ambitious expansion.
www.burlingtonfreepress.com
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I'm with you...the lenders even testified that the deals were above board and they all profited. Problem is that this is a law on the book in NY...rarely used...but it is a law..and doesnt need a traditional victim of fraud...issue for the judge will come on appeal...he will have justify his decision to use those valuations over the experts of Trumps. With the banks and Trumps agreements in valuations itll be hard fornthe ruling to stick...at most he may be fined but even that'll be tough...you can stick of number objectively to a property in a subjective marketplace the value is what someone will pay and what the property will generate..
 
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#338
#338
jmacvols1 said:
Bernie's wife Jane Sanders lied to the bank and got away with it, so why can't you?


Do you think the bank made its own valuation/appraisal of the collateral before making the loan?
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Unaware of her case but if she broke the law, then yes, she should be prosecuted...
 
#339
#339
jmacvols1 said:
I am going by what the article from the Post says:

Justice Arthur Engoron again rejected Trump’s claims that Mar-a-Lago is worth $1 billion in favor of the much lower valuation issued by local Florida officials.

However, Engoron implored the media to stop reporting that he’d been the one to value the golf club and resort at $18 million — the low end of a determination made by the Palm Beach assessor that has left many real estate industry insiders perplexed.

In his decision, Engoron — who is deciding the trial rather than a jury — cited a local Palm Beach County official saying the country club had been assessed at a range of between $18 million and $27 million between 2011 and 2021.

In the same decision, Engoron rejected Trump’s expert’s valuation that the Florida estate was worth $1.5 billion, finding the expert’s opinion “unexplained and unsubstantiated ‘dream[s.]'”

The judge is citing the valuation given by "local Florida officials" (gov't officials) having rejected Trump's expert's valuation
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Trump's expert did not provide any substantiation or a report detailing the $1.5 billion number. It was from an off-hand comment in his depo that he could not substantiate when asked to support it....

I've looked at enough beachfront properties to know the property tax number is ridiculously low for M-A-L...
 
#340
#340
BigOrangeMojo said:
It would complete transparency, several months and several million dollars to do a full forensic audit of Trump every time he wanted to borrow money.

The reason for these laws is to prevent gridlock and double digit rates everything someone wanted to borrow money (whether it be for FAFSA or to buy property).
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They wouldn't have to do a full forensic audit of Trumps financials in order to make a decision on a loan, come on man. Trump submits his financials and disclosures, the lender reviews them looking for anomalies and a billion dollar valuation of a property would trigger a closer look. Unless of course they agreed with his valuation. Not to mention if he had done business with these same lenders they would have previous filings to compare, repayment history and a relationship.

You falsifying a FASFA application is not even comparable for a couple of reasons, if you inflate your net worth and/or earnings you get nothing or at best a loan. If you report a lesser net worth and/or earnings you may receive a Pell grant that you don't have to pay back, that is theft by fraud.
 
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#341
#341
BigOrangeMojo said:
The SOL is an issue for sure and using property tax appraisals for Mar A Lago is as well. I've stated this throughout.

But its beyond me for an appraiser that I hired to tell me something is worth $160MM and then I turn around and say it's worth $700MM. I can't defend or even rationalize this...
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I haven't read much about this case but what was the appraiser hired for? That makes a difference.
 
#342
#342
hog88 said:
I haven't read much about this case but what was the appraiser hired for? That makes a difference.
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My guess (educated) is the appraiser was either hired for estate planning purposes or more likely, to provide a low-ball estimate to appeal of property taxes...
 
#343
#343
BigOrangeMojo said:
My guess (educated) is the appraiser was either hired for estate planning purposes or more likely, to provide a low-ball estimate to appeal of property taxes...
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Then you agree that appraisal by itself is meaningless to this case.
 
#344
#344
hog88 said:
Then you agree that appraisal by itself is meaningless to this case.
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It's not meaningless. If Trump's appraiser said it was worth $160M and Trump said $250M, I'd agree with you. But Trump said $700MM, that's just too big of a gap to bridge....
 
#345
#345
BigOrangeMojo said:
It's not meaningless. If Trump's appraiser said it was worth $160M and Trump said $250M, I'd agree with you. But Trump said $700MM, that's just too big of a gap to bridge....
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Ehh, if the appraisal was for simple property market value or sales comparison then it's not applicable to a loan application. If the appraisal was a capital evaluation then yes, it would be relevant to the case. That's why what type and purpose of the appraisal the judge is using matters.
 
#346
#346
whodeycin85 said:
I'm with you...the lenders even testified that the deals were above board and they all profited. Problem is that this is a law on the book in NY...rarely used...but it is a law..and doesnt need a traditional victim of fraud...issue for the judge will come on appeal...he will have justify his decision to use those valuations over the experts of Trumps. With the banks and Trumps agreements in valuations itll be hard fornthe ruling to stick...at most he may be fined but even that'll be tough...you can stick of number objectively to a property in a subjective marketplace the value is what someone will pay and what the property will generate..
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He's just a corrupt, Trump hating judge.
 
#347
#347
jmacvols1 said:
He's just a corrupt, Trump hating judge.
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How is he corrupt again?

You keep saying that, but not giving any examples of actual corruption.

According to the MAGA deplorables - law enforcement, the entirety of the government, the media, the electorate, secretaries of state, the military brass, almost all of trumps former cabinet and now the judiciary is corrupt and 'rigged' against him.

The other explanation, one that requires much less mental gymnastics - is that trump is a fraud and simply convinces the low IQ that everyone who can hold him accountable isn't to be trusted.

I digress...

Can you offer up some examples of the corruption you speak of?
 
#350
#350
jmacvols1 said:
I've never worked for a bank but many years ago I worked for a consumer finance company. If someone wanted to borrow money against equity they had in their house, we sent a real estate guy out to check out and appraise the house using our own valuation to determine to make the loan or not against the house. We did not take potential borrower's "word" for it we checked out everything, verified employment, required check stubs, bank statement, credit reports, etc, etc.
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Still a crime to defraud the bank.

People make mistakes. They overvalue their home quite a bit. Does not make it criminal.

What IS criminal is a decade (or more) long pattern of intentionally overstating or understating values to either get favorable loan terms or evade taxes or other expenses.

That the banks were made whole or did not suffer losses is quite beside the point. The criminality is the pattern of knowingly misleading people and institutions for illegal purposes (whether it ultimately works, or not).
 
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