Court Orders Dissolution of Trump Org

[lawgator1]

Again, I really don't like how the property tax assessment for MarALago is prima face evidence in this case.

It's clear Trump broke the law and it's clear this is a political hatchet job

Both can and likely are true...

The judge has previously ruled -- and the appellate court agreed -- that arguments as to the subjective personal motivations of the prosecutor are completely irrelevant to the legal question of whether, objectively, Trump et al broke the law.

 

[jmacvols1]

Trump's expert did not provide any substantiation or a report detailing the $1.5 billion number. It was from an off-hand comment in his depo that he could not substantiate when asked to support it....

I've looked at enough beachfront properties to know the property tax number is ridiculously low for M-A-L...

I douby Trump's expert just pulled a number out of thin air. Many professionals in the business who know what they are talking about, unlike the judge, are perplexed $18 million valuation:

Real estate insiders bewildered by judge’s $18M valuation of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago: ‘Would list at $300M’

Justice Arthur Engoron’s ruling raised eyebrows by valuing the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate at $18 million when comparable lots nearby ask much more.

nypost.com

"Engoron, a Democrat who ran unopposed in the general election on Nov. 3, 2015, evaluated the worth of Trump’s prized Mar-a-Lago Club resort at $18 million, ruling that the property was inflated by 2,300%.

He cited a basic Palm Beach Assessor valuation that ranged from $18 million to $28 million between 2011 and 2021, with industry sources saying it fails to take into consideration the fair market value. This valuation is far from Trump’s 1985 purchase price of $10 million, $8 million less than what the judge declared it was worth today.

It is also important to note that Trump got a deal on Mar-a-Lago nearly 40 years ago. At the time the historical estate was listed at $20 million.

There are also nearby comps.

To put it in perspective, a 2-acre wooded lot at 1980 S. Ocean Blvd., just 5 minutes from Mar-a-Lago, is currently listed for $150 million. Mar-a-Lago, situated at 1100 S. Ocean Blvd., dwarfs this lot tenfold and operates as a commercial business with around 500 members as part of the golf club.

Also nearby: a 2.3-acre plot of land at 1063/1071 N. Ocean Blvd., on the market for a sky-high $200 million.

Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate boasts a sprawling 20 acres.

Nearby residential properties, less than half the size and lacking ocean frontage, are commanding an average price of $40 million in today’s market.

There have also been very prominent local purchases.

In March, Rush Limbaugh’s widow, Kathryn Adams Limbaugh, sold her husband’s longtime Palm Beach compound, on 2.7 acres, for $155 million.

Last year, Engoron referred to Trump as “just a bad guy” in a scathing rebuke to a lawyer arguing that the former president was being unfairly singled out for investigation by James.


“If Ms. James has a thing against him, OK, that’s not in my understanding [of] unlawful discrimination. He’s just a bad guy she should go after as the chief law enforcement officer of the state.”

The judge is just a corrupt, Trump hating judge and nothing more.

 

[jmacvols1]

Still a crime to defraud the bank.

People make mistakes. They overvalue their home quite a bit. Does not make it criminal.

What IS criminal is a decade (or more) long pattern of intentionally overstating or understating values to either get favorable loan terms or evade taxes or other expenses.

That the banks were made whole or did not suffer losses is quite beside the point. The criminality is the pattern of knowingly misleading people and institutions for illegal purposes (whether it ultimately works, or not).

All we have here is a corrupt Trump hating judge who thinks he is an expert in property valuations when he has no business even being a judge.

I thought this was a civil case not a criminal case and have seen no proof whatsoever of any "criminal pattern" or that Trump got "favorable loan terms" or evaded taxes.

 

[Septic]

I douby Trump's expert just pulled a number out of thin air. Many professionals in the business who know what they are talking about, unlike the judge, are perplexed $18 million valuation:

I agree, he probably has a 'wheel of fortune' type contraption in his office that he just spins. The number it lands on is what he used for the valuations.

 

[lawgator1]

All we have here is a corrupt Trump hating judge who thinks he is an expert in property valuations when he has no business even being a judge.

I thought this was a civil case not a criminal case and have seen no proof whatsoever of any "criminal pattern" or that Trump got "favorable loan terms" or evaded taxes.

You are beyond rational debate so will not even try. Suffice it to say you are simply wrong. At every level.

 

[hog88]

Again, I really don't like how the property tax assessment for MarALago is prima face evidence in this case.

It's clear Trump broke the law and it's clear this is a political hatchet job

Both can and likely are true...

Both can be true and most likely are.

 

[jmacvols1]

You are beyond rational debate so will not even try. Suffice it to say you are simply wrong. At every level.

The point has been already, why is the judge targeting Trump? Why doesn't the judge go through the bank records of all the left wing developers and charge them with inflating valuations to properties?

An earlier poster has already said "the lenders even testified that the deals were above board and they all profited. Problem is that this is a law on the book in NY...rarely used...but it is a law..and doesnt need a traditional victim of fraud."

 

[turbovol]

All we have here is a corrupt Trump hating judge who thinks he is an expert in property valuations when he has no business even being a judge.

I thought this was a civil case not a criminal case and have seen no proof whatsoever of any "criminal pattern" or that Trump got "favorable loan terms" or evaded taxes.

Perhaps you should go to law school--hurry--and become the latest of the gangster's many lawyers. The man has been lying dramatically about his property valuations for many years.

 

[Septic]

Perhaps you should go to law school--hurry--and become the latest of the gangster's many lawyers. The man has been lying dramatically about his property valuations for many years.

If Donny's legal team knew they had free access to the VNPF cornucopia of legal expertise, he'd be king of the world right now.

Literally nothing could stop him.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

I douby Trump's expert just pulled a number out of thin air. Many professionals in the business who know what they are talking about, unlike the judge, are perplexed $18 million valuation:

Real estate insiders bewildered by judge’s $18M valuation of Trump’s Mar-a-Lago: ‘Would list at $300M’

Justice Arthur Engoron’s ruling raised eyebrows by valuing the former president’s Mar-a-Lago estate at $18 million when comparable lots nearby ask much more.

nypost.com

"Engoron, a Democrat who ran unopposed in the general election on Nov. 3, 2015, evaluated the worth of Trump’s prized Mar-a-Lago Club resort at $18 million, ruling that the property was inflated by 2,300%.

He cited a basic Palm Beach Assessor valuation that ranged from $18 million to $28 million between 2011 and 2021, with industry sources saying it fails to take into consideration the fair market value. This valuation is far from Trump’s 1985 purchase price of $10 million, $8 million less than what the judge declared it was worth today.

It is also important to note that Trump got a deal on Mar-a-Lago nearly 40 years ago. At the time the historical estate was listed at $20 million.

There are also nearby comps.

To put it in perspective, a 2-acre wooded lot at 1980 S. Ocean Blvd., just 5 minutes from Mar-a-Lago, is currently listed for $150 million. Mar-a-Lago, situated at 1100 S. Ocean Blvd., dwarfs this lot tenfold and operates as a commercial business with around 500 members as part of the golf club.

Also nearby: a 2.3-acre plot of land at 1063/1071 N. Ocean Blvd., on the market for a sky-high $200 million.

Trump’s Mar-a-Lago estate boasts a sprawling 20 acres.

Nearby residential properties, less than half the size and lacking ocean frontage, are commanding an average price of $40 million in today’s market.

There have also been very prominent local purchases.

In March, Rush Limbaugh’s widow, Kathryn Adams Limbaugh, sold her husband’s longtime Palm Beach compound, on 2.7 acres, for $155 million.

Last year, Engoron referred to Trump as “just a bad guy” in a scathing rebuke to a lawyer arguing that the former president was being unfairly singled out for investigation by James.


“If Ms. James has a thing against him, OK, that’s not in my understanding [of] unlawful discrimination. He’s just a bad guy she should go after as the chief law enforcement officer of the state.”

The judge is just a corrupt, Trump hating judge and nothing more.

Trump's expert did not put anything into the record that substantiated the 1.5 billion number. He was pressed to support it in the record and he couldn't.

I can say that I got a porn star dick in a depo but they hand me a ruler and tell me to prove it and I can't, all I did was make an unsubstantiated statement...

The $18MM property tax value is complete BS as well. I've stated this many times how this shouldn't be prima facie evidence since there are so many differences between a market value and a Florida property tax appraisal...

The answer lies somewhere in between.

 

[davethevol]

Again, I really don't like how the property tax assessment for MarALago is prima face evidence in this case.

It's clear Trump broke the law and it's clear this is a political hatchet job

Both can and likely are true...

Probably the most accurate assessment regarding this situation.

 

[whodeycin85]

Trump's expert did not put anything into the record that substantiated the 1.5 billion number. He was pressed to support it in the record and he couldn't.

I can say that I got a porn star dick in a depo but they hand me a ruler and tell me to prove it and I can't, all I did was make an unsubstantiated statement...

The $18MM property tax value is complete BS as well. I've stated this many times how this shouldn't be prima facie evidence since there are so many differences between a market value and a Florida property tax appraisal...

The answer lies somewhere in between.

Did the filings say how much the loans were etc or is it just in the paperwork valuations???

 

[jmacvols1]

Trump's expert did not put anything into the record that substantiated the 1.5 billion number. He was pressed to support it in the record and he couldn't.

I can say that I got a porn star dick in a depo but they hand me a ruler and tell me to prove it and I can't, all I did was make an unsubstantiated statement...

The $18MM property tax value is complete BS as well. I've stated this many times how this shouldn't be prima facie evidence since there are so many differences between a market value and a Florida property tax appraisal...

The answer lies somewhere in between.

I have yet to find anything that $1.5 billion was pulled out of thin air.

Trump Fraud Trial: AG Argues Ex-President Changed Numbers To Boost Net Worth As His Attorney Claims Trump Is ‘Right About Real Estate’

Trump’s business associates were told to inflate his assets to boost his ranking on Forbes’ billionaire list, the attorney general’s office argued Monday.

www.forbes.com

Trump’s attorney Christopher Kise argued in his opening statement the former president has made “many billions of dollars being right about real estate investments” and “did not make any false statements” or act fraudulently, as quoted by the Times, alleging the valuations were subjective and that in real estate, “buyers have a view, sellers have a view, none of them are wrong.”

Kise argued the banks that lent money to Trump made money and that any disparate valuations did not have an impact, noting Deutsche Bank underwrote a loan to Trump even though it valued his net worth as being $2 billion less than he did.

There was no intent to defraud, there was no illegality, there was no default, there was no breach, there was no reliance from the banks, there were no unjust profits, and there were no victims,” Kise argued in his opening statement Monday, as quoted by Reuters."

How much is Mar-a-Lago worth? Valuation of Trump property raises questions

The disparity between the former president's valuation of his Florida estate and that of a local assessor has prompted speculation as to its true worth.

www.newsweek.com

"A nearby vacant lot (2.3 acres) is for sale on Zillow for $200 million," John LeFevre, a former investment banker who created the Goldman Sachs Elevator social media account, wrote alongside a screengrab of the listing. "Mar-a-Lago sits on 17 acres, with waterfront on both sides."

He added: "The primary point is this: The lending bank is required to get a valuation from a third party to cover its LTV calculation. No one had an issue with any of this. Everyone made money...Until an activist [District Attorney] came along decades later," a reference to Letitia James, who brought the case."

Ali Zein Yousuf, a software engineer, replied: "You're right, if it was priced at the same per acre as the empty lot, it'd be [$]1.5 billion."

There are competing estimates as to the size of the estate; several publications have said it spans 17 acres, while the club's website says it is 20 acres. According to the asking price of the empty lot listing, this would in theory give the property a value of $1.47 billion to $1.72 billion, but that doesn't take into account the development potential of the empty plot or the value of the Mar-a-Lago buildings."

 

[jmacvols1]

Perhaps you should go to law school--hurry--and become the latest of the gangster's many lawyers. The man has been lying dramatically about his property valuations for many years.

You make statements with no proof. There is no certain, legal proof that Mar-a-lago cannot be rightfully valued at 1 billion dollars.

Will you go to law school and investigate all the left wing developers and prosecute those that over-valued their property of what you personally think property values should be?

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

I have yet to find anything that $1.5 billion was pulled out of thin air.

Trump Fraud Trial: AG Argues Ex-President Changed Numbers To Boost Net Worth As His Attorney Claims Trump Is ‘Right About Real Estate’

Trump’s business associates were told to inflate his assets to boost his ranking on Forbes’ billionaire list, the attorney general’s office argued Monday.

www.forbes.com

Trump’s attorney Christopher Kise argued in his opening statement the former president has made “many billions of dollars being right about real estate investments” and “did not make any false statements” or act fraudulently, as quoted by the Times, alleging the valuations were subjective and that in real estate, “buyers have a view, sellers have a view, none of them are wrong.”

Kise argued the banks that lent money to Trump made money and that any disparate valuations did not have an impact, noting Deutsche Bank underwrote a loan to Trump even though it valued his net worth as being $2 billion less than he did.

There was no intent to defraud, there was no illegality, there was no default, there was no breach, there was no reliance from the banks, there were no unjust profits, and there were no victims,” Kise argued in his opening statement Monday, as quoted by Reuters."

How much is Mar-a-Lago worth? Valuation of Trump property raises questions

The disparity between the former president's valuation of his Florida estate and that of a local assessor has prompted speculation as to its true worth.

www.newsweek.com

"A nearby vacant lot (2.3 acres) is for sale on Zillow for $200 million," John LeFevre, a former investment banker who created the Goldman Sachs Elevator social media account, wrote alongside a screengrab of the listing. "Mar-a-Lago sits on 17 acres, with waterfront on both sides."

He added: "The primary point is this: The lending bank is required to get a valuation from a third party to cover its LTV calculation. No one had an issue with any of this. Everyone made money...Until an activist [District Attorney] came along decades later," a reference to Letitia James, who brought the case."

Ali Zein Yousuf, a software engineer, replied: "You're right, if it was priced at the same per acre as the empty lot, it'd be [$]1.5 billion."

There are competing estimates as to the size of the estate; several publications have said it spans 17 acres, while the club's website says it is 20 acres. According to the asking price of the empty lot listing, this would in theory give the property a value of $1.47 billion to $1.72 billion, but that doesn't take into account the development potential of the empty plot or the value of the Mar-a-Lago buildings."

A non appraiser pulling a Zillow listing for a nearby property without the same covenants and having another non appraiser extrapolating it isn't a market appraisal...Trump's own appraiser, when pressed under oath, could not support or providd any documentation for his 1.5 billion amount....

I've listed the reasons why the judge listing the property tax appraisal is wrong. But providing an equally flawed result doesn't prove a point...

 

[jmacvols1]

It's clear Trump broke the law

broke what law?

 

[hog88]

broke what law?

As the NY law is written Trump probably violated it and that should scare the absolute crap out of every developer and business owner in the state.

 

[jmacvols1]

A non appraiser pulling a Zillow listing for a nearby property without the same covenants and having another non appraiser extrapolating it isn't a market appraisal...Trump's own appraiser, when pressed under oath, could not support or providd any documentation for his 1.5 billion amount....

I've listed the reasons why the judge listing the property tax appraisal is wrong. But providing an equally flawed result doesn't prove a point...

all property surrounding Mar-a-lago is worth 40-300 million but Mar-a-logo is only wirth 18 mil according to a judge.

From the the NY post:
This decision, which came down without a jury, has sent shockwaves through political — and real estate — circles, especially that $18 million base value for the property.

One prominent Palm Beach real estate broker, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told The Post, “It’s utterly delusional to think that property is only worth $18 million.”

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

As the NY law is written Trump probably violated it and that should scare the absolute crap out of every developer and business owner in the state.

Just for full disclosure (and I know this isn't a mortgage) but 18 U.S.C. Section 1014 states making a false statement or willfully overvalued property is a federal crime and actual damage is not required....

 

[jmacvols1]

As the NY law is written Trump probably violated it and that should scare the absolute crap out of every developer and business owner in the state.

Property vvaluation are subjective and I have not seen any proof that Mar-a-lago cannot be valued at a billion dollars. The banks that loaned Trump money may have very well valued it at 1 billion. This is nit picky stuff that a judge is trying to destroy an US businessman over. Will the judge investigate other NY developers and charge them with over-valuing property in his own estimation? Or is this just to target Trump with a rarely used law by a judge known to be a Trump hating judge?

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

all property surrounding Mar-a-lago is worth 40-300 million but Mar-a-logo is only wirth 18 mil according to a judge.

From the the NY post:
This decision, which came down without a jury, has sent shockwaves through political — and real estate — circles, especially that $18 million base value for the property.

One prominent Palm Beach real estate broker, speaking on the condition of anonymity, told The Post, “It’s utterly delusional to think that property is only worth $18 million.”

How many times have I already said the $18MM is completely wrong?

MarALago is just 1 of his properties. The other properties are far more damning IMO because they deal with real appraisals and not property tax values...

If MarALago was the only property in this matter, I'd say toss it. But its not. It's 1 of many...

 

[hog88]

Just for full disclosure (and I know this isn't a mortgage) but 18 U.S.C. Section 1014 states making a false statement or willfully overvalued property is a federal crime and actual damage is not required....

I wonder how many people have been prosecuted under this law, with no damage. There were a couple of guys from Gallatin that went to the federal pen for (I'm guessing) doing this when the Plantation was being built out but they screwed over several lenders and people.

 

[Septic]

Property vvaluation are subjective and I have not seen any proof that Mar-a-lago cannot be valued at a billion dollars. The banks that loaned Trump money may have very well valued it at 1 billion. This is nit picky stuff that a judge is trying to destroy an US businessman over. Will the judge investigate other NY developers and charge them with over-valuing property in his own estimation? Or is this just to target Trump with a rarely used law by a judge known to be a Trump hating judge?

Why do you keep pinning this on the judge? He didn't bring the case.

Also, where's that evidence of the judge's corruption you keep harping on?

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

I wonder how many people have been prosecuted under this law, with no damage. There were a couple of guys from Gallatin that went to the federal pen for (I'm guessing) doing this when the Plantation was being built out but they screwed over several lenders and people.

I know one of the partners who helped fund the George Jones restaurant in Downtown Nashville got busted for doing the same thing Trump is accused of here...

 

[hog88]

I know one of the partners who helped fund the George Jones restaurant in Downtown Nashville got busted for doing the same thing Trump is accused of here...

No damages or complaints from the lender?