Da Reds thread

#11,580
#11,580
Well, over a month into the season and no Braves trolls or stats nerds popping in to tell us how great Votto is. Or maybe they actually looked at his stats versus team wins. Or maybe they saw where the guys hitting in front and behind him in the order are doing well, while he is stinking it up.

Great bullpen there, Price. Aren't you the one that is supposed to be a pitching expert? Set a MLB record that is still being added onto with 22 consecutive games of them giving up at least one run. Going to be a struggle to win 60 games this season.

Back to more enjoyable spring and summer activities.
 
#11,581
#11,581
Prior to today's game on 5/15: Joey Votto .224/.366/.377; 37 SO's, 23 BB's. The umps are not putting up with his strike zone whining. Going to have to earn that $20+M, JV.
 
#11,582
#11,582
His Babip is like 80 points lower than his career norms I wouldn't be worried at all
 
#11,583
#11,583
LOL. It's a long season.

What did you think of his stats last season? Or how about 2013, 2011, 2010, 2009, 2008?

I will agree on one thing, it is somewhat concerning that his K rate is 26% compared to his 19% career K rate; but only somewhat.

The bullpen would suck no matter who the manager is. They're awful. But Price is equally as bad.
 
#11,584
#11,584
Going to play 'what if' with just the pitching, Appa.

1) What if Iglesias had stayed the reliever he always was in Cuba before Walter signed him? Would he be on the DL today? The shoulder impingement was caused by overthrowing.
2) What if Lorenzen had stayed the reliever he was in college? That he is going back to when he comes off the DL. See Iglesias above.
3) What if the Reds had selected good talent with upside and developed them to be quality SPs well before Simon became the successful 5th wheel a couple of years ago? What if he had stayed the good innings eating reliever he always was? If nothing else it would have allowed good talent on the farm to continue to develop without the mess and given another guy a shot to start. There are a few in the wings they are playing arb clock with like Stephenson instead of bringing them up for good because the cupboard will be bare on the farm once they arrive.
4) What if the FO had decided to break the bank for Cueto instead of for Gomer; by saving the $1-5 M a year they have been tossing out to each has-been and wannabe all over the roster?
5) What if the FO had signed Leake when Cueto left and let him continue doing what he was doing with a sub 4 ERA and 200 innings without injuries? He was off to a rough start with SL, but has found his rhythm lately and looks to be returning to form. It would have cost less than Gomer with something to show for it. He was outperforming Gomer before the decision.

Just some lamentations. Like this pathetic series against Indians, who were last in BA in MLB until this series.

Hopefully Votto comes back around soon. But the point about $20+ M a year for OBP stands. You don't win with OBP first and hitting second. You win with hitting first. I watch about 90% of the games. He is not getting the benefit of the marginal call this season, so he is going to have to adjust and swing his bat earlier in the count.

FWIW.
 
#11,587
#11,587
Votto lovers - better get behind your boy and provide some encouragement. Approaching the Mendoza line at .205. But hey, still got that respectable .341 OBP while the team is 1-9 in their last 10 and 15 games out already.

The Chapman Count stands at 10 games already. 10 games that had he pitched the 9th inning and did his job as closer, the Reds would have won the game. That is without much if any help from the above referenced. Chappy is 6 for 6 on saves with NYY. The brilliance of Dicky Walter Price continues.
 
#11,588
#11,588
Vols4us said:
Short attention span.
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Lack of patience for long winded, tunnel vision induced, hypotheticals.

I agree on the bullpen, they suck. But I think the bullpen would suck no matter who the manager is...like I've already said. And I agreed with you that Price is bad. But we can't really look at this season in a vacuum. Obviously Chapman is going to look better than our bullpen right now. 2016 is going to suck, but we knew going in. Hopefully these moves pay off. I don't have much faith that they will, personally. But a buddy of mine is a Mets fan, and he said he felt just like I do three years ago, so I'm willing to be patient and see where things go. To be honest though, I think the Braves have done a much better job of stocking the cupboard than we have.

I don't understand the incessant hate for Votto. You completely ignore ALL of his stats from the years I referenced. You act like he is ONLY an OBP champ.

CAREER
AVG .307
OBP .420
SLG .527
OPS .948
wOBA .406
wRC+ 154

162 Game Average over his career
Runs 95
Hits 176
Doubles 39
HR 28
RBI 92
SB 8

He is right on the door step of AVERAGING 100 runs, 30 HR, 100 RBI and a .300+ AVG every single season. It is mind boggling how you ignore all of these facts and only focus on his OBP as though that is the only facet of his game.

Jason Heyward was signed to an 8 year $184MM deal in the offseason. That is more per year than we got Votto for.

For comparison

Heyward Career
AVG .266
OBP .352
SLG .424
OPS .776
wOBA .342
wRC+ 116

162 Game Average
Runs 87
Hits 155
Doubles 30
HR 18
RBI 68
SB 17

I'm not saying Votto is on the same level as Trout, Harper, etc. but he is definitely much better than you give him credit for and isn't just an OBP champ. If you would look at things reasonably I'd give you much more respect in these discussions, but as it is, it is very difficult to take you seriously, despite the amount of knowledge and experience you have with the game. Now, it's certainly possible he has a horrible season and the rest of his career is mired by injuries and ultimately he sucks. But it could always be worse. We could have put all our eggs in the basket with Josh Hamilton.
 
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#11,591
#11,591
Appy - it's June and JV is just now climbing out of a .220 BA. Dicky Walter shopped the guy after last season and there was ZERO interest because of cost versus return. I'm sorry that offends you since he is your favorite player. His attitude is much improved this season and he will eventually move his BA above .275 IMO. Hitting #2 helps him.

As to Price, there is no defense. The pen has the worst ERA by about 1.5 runs per game than the next worst. The total staff ERA is at 5.7, about .7 more than the next worse. This is Price's forte, the reason he is in MLB. He's getting better as a game coach, but Bruce Bochy he's not.

But I'm going to look at the hypotheticals #1, #2, #3. The team recently stated all three will be happening soon. Not hypothetical - good predictions of the inevitable.

The reason it was important to get it right with #1-3 before the season started is because the team is hitting better overall than it has in a few years at 4.5 RPG from under 4 without Votto having a good year. Had the pen been in shape and Stephenson moved up, they would still have a shot at the wildcard. The D would have to improve though.

You talk about my long winded posts - peruse back through a few of yours. Place me on Ignore. It's a message board.

Tunnel vision. That's a new one for somebody with too many hypotheticals. OK.

We agree on Suarez and Simon.

Happy to welcome Nick Senzel to the club and hope he makes it to Cincy soon. Hope he moves Suarez to another position.
 
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#11,592
#11,592
My tl;dr was a smartass remark, apologies for that. I was referring to the long windedness of that single post, specifically that it was driven by your tunnel vision and a bunch of "what if" scenarios.

I still stand by what I said about your tunnel vision in regards to Votto though. I agree, right now, he isn't earning his keep. But we're still just 1/3 of the way through the season. He is not my favorite player. I'm not a huge fan of his approach, but I do recognize his value and respect his talent.

I don't think I've ever placed anyone on ignore; and if I can tolerate D4H then you're a cakewalk. I value your opinion at times. I think you're extremely negative towards the team you claim to be a fan of. For whatever reason nothing seems to please you. I think your agreeance on the Suarez trade is the first semi-positive thing I've ever seen you post about the franchise, lol.

I'm pumped they took Senzel. I think he could move very quickly through the minors. He has immediately jumped into one of my top 10 favorite players haha.
 
#11,593
#11,593
Appalachiamuck said:
My tl;dr was a smartass remark, apologies for that. I was referring to the long windedness of that single post, specifically that it was driven by your tunnel vision and a bunch of "what if" scenarios.

I still stand by what I said about your tunnel vision in regards to Votto though. I agree, right now, he isn't earning his keep. But we're still just 1/3 of the way through the season. He is not my favorite player. I'm not a huge fan of his approach, but I do recognize his value and respect his talent.

I don't think I've ever placed anyone on ignore; and if I can tolerate D4H then you're a cakewalk. I value your opinion at times. I think you're extremely negative towards the team you claim to be a fan of. For whatever reason nothing seems to please you. I think your agreeance on the Suarez trade is the first semi-positive thing I've ever seen you post about the franchise, lol.

I'm pumped they took Senzel. I think he could move very quickly through the minors. He has immediately jumped into one of my top 10 favorite players haha.
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We are good. Will try to be less inflammatory. Will be my last lengthy post on this thread.

You object to my negativity about the club. I am letting over 5 decades of fandom and playing at a D-1 level get in the way. I've seen things run in Cincy much, much better during that time than it is now. I actively keep track of the moves the club makes. I have some past and current relationships with people associated with the org. I do not think it is a good thing that Bob had Walter train Dick Williams (a minority partner's son) into his role. Walt was fired by the Cards for good reasons. He's had 3 winning seasons and no playoff wins in 8 years with the Reds despite having strong talent and pitching for more than half of it. In fact, his big deals have led to the drain of talent away from the active 25 to the place we find ourselves today. Bryan Price added nothing to help the team develop, which has been clearly reflected in the W/L column and negative records they are amassing in various statistical areas. He does not command the veterans respect and is a zero on the offensive side. But, they got him on the cheap during the worst period in team history. These are the sources of my negativity and "tunnel vision" as you call it.

Votto is Votto and will continue to do what he wants when he wants to do it as long a the org puts up with it. He could be special. I see a very talented guy that could act and play like the professional he is paid to be. He could decide to get in front of ground balls today, like little leaguers are taught to do. He could stop choking up from the first pitch in an AB and hit for production as he is paid to do. Until he is made to do it he will do what he wants.

Suarez has a gun at third. I can't help but believe he would make a strong OF'er like Duvall at some point. He projects to have over 25 errors by year end at 3B and that will not work. If Senzel works out Suarez gets moved to another position or traded. I like where he could end up offensively when he matures and realizes he has the power without swinging from the heels. Senzel is projected to be in high A Jacksonville later this season. Probably on the active 25 in a couple of years. The Cuban A-Rod signing is the SS of the future if he can hit MLB pitching. Then add Peraza to take BP's spot. Those are all positives in my book. As much as I like Cozart, it may be time to move him for MLB prospects along with Bruce. I also like that they are all more aggressive at the plate this season. If they can have Billy and Peraza with .325+ OBP's at the top of the order in the future - good things will happen offensively. Add in Duvall with his strong upside along with a few other good guys - could be back in the playoffs.
 
#11,594
#11,594
Our thread is dead :hmm:

At least DeSclafani is looking good and Votto has gotten back on track.

EDIT: Vols4us, I never actually read your post before this one. I just read it. I have to go, but will respond later. Not that it matters, we average about 0.02 posts a day in this thread lol.
 
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#11,596
#11,596
005 said:
Besides basically April, Votto has been a beast.
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May was fairly ugly too.

.200/.333/.484, OPS .818, wOBA .345, wRC+ 113. But 7 HR, 19 Runs and 19 RBI. 30% K rate. You can see with some of those numbers he was beginning to show up, but it really didn't show until June.
 
#11,597
#11,597
Vols4us said:
We are good. Will try to be less inflammatory. Will be my last lengthy post on this thread.

You object to my negativity about the club. I am letting over 5 decades of fandom and playing at a D-1 level get in the way. I've seen things run in Cincy much, much better during that time than it is now. I actively keep track of the moves the club makes. I have some past and current relationships with people associated with the org. I do not think it is a good thing that Bob had Walter train Dick Williams (a minority partner's son) into his role. Walt was fired by the Cards for good reasons. He's had 3 winning seasons and no playoff wins in 8 years with the Reds despite having strong talent and pitching for more than half of it. In fact, his big deals have led to the drain of talent away from the active 25 to the place we find ourselves today. Bryan Price added nothing to help the team develop, which has been clearly reflected in the W/L column and negative records they are amassing in various statistical areas. He does not command the veterans respect and is a zero on the offensive side. But, they got him on the cheap during the worst period in team history. These are the sources of my negativity and "tunnel vision" as you call it.

Votto is Votto and will continue to do what he wants when he wants to do it as long a the org puts up with it. He could be special. I see a very talented guy that could act and play like the professional he is paid to be. He could decide to get in front of ground balls today, like little leaguers are taught to do. He could stop choking up from the first pitch in an AB and hit for production as he is paid to do. Until he is made to do it he will do what he wants.

Suarez has a gun at third. I can't help but believe he would make a strong OF'er like Duvall at some point. He projects to have over 25 errors by year end at 3B and that will not work. If Senzel works out Suarez gets moved to another position or traded. I like where he could end up offensively when he matures and realizes he has the power without swinging from the heels. Senzel is projected to be in high A Jacksonville later this season. Probably on the active 25 in a couple of years. The Cuban A-Rod signing is the SS of the future if he can hit MLB pitching. Then add Peraza to take BP's spot. Those are all positives in my book. As much as I like Cozart, it may be time to move him for MLB prospects along with Bruce. I also like that they are all more aggressive at the plate this season. If they can have Billy and Peraza with .325+ OBP's at the top of the order in the future - good things will happen offensively. Add in Duvall with his strong upside along with a few other good guys - could be back in the playoffs.
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Good post. I completely agree with you on everything about the organization. It's very disappointing. I played baseball my entire life, and a little bit of D2 ball. I grew up about an hour and half from Cincinatti. Baseball is my first love. So I'm right there with you and your frustrations.

I was saying you have tunnel vision in regards to Votto, not the club. I don't understand why you continue to gripe about him when he is the most productive player on the team. Choking up? Barry Bonds choked up. Plenty of other great hitters choked up. Oh, and btw, how do you feel about Votto the last couple months?

I'm not sure Hamilton will ever have a .325 OBP. He has only had 1 month in his career with an OBP over .320.

I'm willing to wait and see how the rebuild goes. Some of these guys are giving me hope. But I'm with you, we shouldn't be in this position to begin with.
 
#11,598
#11,598
Appalachiamuck said:
Good post. I completely agree with you on everything about the organization. It's very disappointing. I played baseball my entire life, and a little bit of D2 ball. I grew up about an hour and half from Cincinatti. Baseball is my first love. So I'm right there with you and your frustrations.

I was saying you have tunnel vision in regards to Votto, not the club. I don't understand why you continue to gripe about him when he is the most productive player on the team. Choking up? Barry Bonds choked up. Plenty of other great hitters choked up. Oh, and btw, how do you feel about Votto the last couple months?

I'm not sure Hamilton will ever have a .325 OBP. He has only had 1 month in his career with an OBP over .320.

I'm willing to wait and see how the rebuild goes. Some of these guys are giving me hope. But I'm with you, we shouldn't be in this position to begin with.
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I figured we had more in common than not. Thanks for the background.:good!:

We can agree to disagree on Votto. Lately he is just choking up an inch or so on all pitches. He was doing that upto two strikes on him and then going 2-3 inches. I don't care for it early in the count or that huge choking up because he sacrifices power. Tells the opponents he is going for singles, so they can adjust their D and pitches. He appeared to be experimenting with it while on the job. I was always taught to give your best effort on the job. I admired his style greatly through 2011. He only choked up with two strikes and would shoot the ball toward the left center alley. However, he seems to be attacking the ball much better lately even if the power is down overall. The one thing I really like about everything else he does is his scoops on low throws, he's good at that.

Hamilton will be .325 or better next season and beyond. He's figured it out. IMO the past is not a good indicator with him because he just started SH 4 years ago. Never did it in his life until then. Hatcher's working with him. He'll get there. Although I would have the very best instructor I had in the system to work with him at every opportunity.

Bruce is gone. Getting Nimmo and two low level farm guys from the Mets. Nimmo is a top young prospect, was a first rounder. Looks like Cozy is up next, probably going to the Mariners. Going really miss him, but it clears the way for Peraza. If that happens BP stays through next season and more than likely they will have Suarez move to 2B as Senzel will probably be ready for the call-up. So Duvall to RF with the battle of first rounders between Nimmo and Winker for LF next season. Could be worse things to happen.

EDIT: Mets deal fell apart due to a medical issue with one of the targets in the Mets org. So Nimmo stays there and they get a AAA infielder Herrera and Wotell, a 3 round 19 year old pitcher. Not as good as Nimmo.

Also no activity reported yet on Cozy, so I hope they keep him at least through the end of the season.
 
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#11,599
#11,599
Firstly, thank you Bruce for your time with the Reds. The guy had his ups and downs, but put together a fine career.

I'm not sure what to make of the return we got for him. Thought we'd get better. Do we really need another middle infielder?

It does kinda seem like Hamilton is starting to figure things out. But he's doing good to get his OBP to .300. We need him to K less and take more walks or take a couple off the arm. I'm curious to know how frequently he bunts. Seems like he could get on base a high % of the time if he fine tuned his bunting.
 
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