Dave Hart Mr. Controversy

#528
#528
For those who don't like Hart; if he does not get the upcoming basketball hire right, he will no longer be the UT athletic director.
 
#530
#530
Hopefully, Dave Hart will institute a major update to the single brand policy and pull the name from the women's basketball team. It would be cool to see him pull that off, then drop the mic on his way out the door.
 
#531
#531
reverseosmosis said:
Hopefully, Dave Hart will institute a major update to the single brand policy and pull the name from the women's basketball team. It would be cool to see him pull that off, then drop the mic on his way out the door.
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That statement and it's tone tells me all I need to know about you.
 
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#533
#533
reverseosmosis said:
Hopefully, Dave Hart will institute a major update to the single brand policy and pull the name from the women's basketball team. It would be cool to see him pull that off, then drop the mic on his way out the door.
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That will not happen. The Lady Vols will still be Lady Vols long after Bama Dave is gone.
 
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#535
#535
Orange Maniac said:
That statement and it's tone tells me all I need to know about you.
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You are the one arguing against an all-inclusive policy that alleviates any relic of sexism, with the exception of the women's basketball team that is somehow above everyone else. That tells me all I need to know about you. The funny thing is that all of this uproar is based on a single unified athletic department that handles everyone equally in a more efficient manner.

My statement insinuates that I wouldn't mind seeing Dave Hart disappear. I'm ambivalent about his presence. This is the one thing where I see he did little wrong, with the exception of tip-toeing around the women's basketball team and creating some questionable stories about the genesis of the policy. The sad thing is that he felt it necessary to pander to an easily enraged Lady Vols fan base over something that is obviously a necessary policy to unite those that are not relegated to the sexism displayed by separate names.
 
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#536
#536
reverseosmosis said:
The funny thing is that all of this uproar is based on a single unified athletic department that handles everyone equally in a more efficient manner.

something that is obviously a necessary policy to unite those that are not relegated to the sexism displayed by separate names.
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If you truly believe the first statement, it would appear that youhave not paid attention to the growth of the Athletic Department since the merger occurred, nor have you paid attention to how the women's teams are treated in the combined department.

With regard to your second statement, let me ask you this question. During the season, are you able to say Tennessee won the basketball game this week and have everyone automatically know to which team you are referring, or do you find it necessary to differentiate between the men's and women's team? I'll be willing to bet that it is the latter. And, since it is necessary to differentiate, why do you find it denigrating to refer to the team as the Lady Vols as opposed to the "women's" basketball team?

Jim
 
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#537
#537
CannonVol80 said:
If you truly believe the first statement, it would appear that youhave not paid attention to the growth of the Athletic Department since the merger occurred, nor have you paid attention to how the women's teams are treated in the combined department.

With regard to your second statement, let me ask you this question. During the season, are you able to say Tennessee won the basketball game this week and have everyone automatically know to which team you are referring, or do you find it necessary to differentiate between the men's and women's team? I'll be willing to bet that it is the latter. And, since it is necessary to differentiate, why do you find it denigrating to refer to the team as the Lady Vols as opposed to the "women's" basketball team?

Jim
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Jim, I believe that there may have been hard feelings or possible outrage on the part of some parties related to the combining of the athletic departments. My personal feeling/belief is that they then possibly moved forward poorly related to the combination of athletic departments. In response to that poor progression, I believe they may have made themselves less desirable as employees or supporters of the combined department. The result of that situation multiplied a few times then gave the appearance of impropriety on the AD's part when none existed. This is all speculation and personal belief, so I've not been blunt while choosing my words wisely to make the point. So my viewpoint on their treatment is that it has not been poor, and it likely was a result of possible realistic situations. Aren't there more new women's only sport facilities than men's? The women have new facilities everywhere, and the men mainly just got remodels. That seems factual to me.

In regards to your second question, I would just state that the majority of fans across the country have found it possible to reference and distinguish their teams without the "Lady" term being part of the official lexicon. I would hope that our fan base would be smart enough and capable of making such an adjustment. I mean, really, soccer, rowing and softball don't even require that since there is no male competition. Maybe the other female sports could sacrifice their outrage just this once to bring us all together. We've never needed the "Gentlemen" Vols to make the point prior.
 
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#539
#539
reverseosmosis said:
Jim, I believe that there may have been hard feelings or possible outrage on the part of some parties related to the combining of the athletic departments. My personal feeling/belief is that they then possibly moved forward poorly related to the combination of athletic departments. In response to that poor progression, I believe they may have made themselves less desirable as employees or supporters of the combined department. The result of that situation multiplied a few times then gave the appearance of impropriety on the AD's part when none existed. This is all speculation and personal belief, so I've not been blunt while choosing my words wisely to make the point. So my viewpoint on their treatment is that it has not been poor, and it likely was a result of possible realistic situations. Aren't there more new women's only sport facilities than men's? The women have new facilities everywhere, and the men mainly just got remodels. That seems factual to me.

In regards to your second question, I would just state that the majority of fans across the country have found it possible to reference and distinguish their teams without the "Lady" term being part of the official lexicon. I would hope that our fan base would be smart enough and capable of making such an adjustment. I mean, really, soccer, rowing and softball don't even require that since there is no male competition. Maybe the other female sports could sacrifice their outrage just this once to bring us all together. We've never needed the "Gentlemen" Vols to make the point prior.
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While I will have to admit that my knowledge of the manner in which the merger of the two departments is anecdotal rather than personal involvement, I must say that I find your admission that your "assertion" that the women of the Women's Athletic Department somehow acted in a way that caused them to be systematically eliminated from the combined department and to do it in such a way as to make it "appear" that the male leadership of the combined department acted in an inappropriate manner to be both short-sighted and incredibly biased. Since you appear to agree that the "appearance of impropriety on the AD's part" exists in this situation, I suggest that you consider the old saw, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . ."

As to your hope that the Volunteer fans will be "smart enough and capable of making such an adjustment" relating to the elimination of the Lady Vol logo, I have no doubt that your hope will be realized, however, that really doesn't answer the question of why, when there are obviously circumstances when you have to differentiate between the teams on thhe basis of gender, you feel that the use of the term "Lady Vols" is denigrating, but referring to the Tennessee "women's" team is not.

Jim
 
#541
#541
CannonVol80 said:
While I will have to admit that my knowledge of the manner in which the merger of the two departments is anecdotal rather than personal involvement, I must say that I find your admission that your "assertion" that the women of the Women's Athletic Department somehow acted in a way that caused them to be systematically eliminated from the combined department and to do it in such a way as to make it "appear" that the male leadership of the combined department acted in an inappropriate manner to be both short-sighted and incredibly biased. Since you appear to agree that the "appearance of impropriety on the AD's part" exists in this situation, I suggest that you consider the old saw, "If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck. . ."

As to your hope that the Volunteer fans will be "smart enough and capable of making such an adjustment" relating to the elimination of the Lady Vol logo, I have no doubt that your hope will be realized, however, that really doesn't answer the question of why, when there are obviously circumstances when you have to differentiate between the teams on thhe basis of gender, you feel that the use of the term "Lady Vols" is denigrating, but referring to the Tennessee "women's" team is not.

Jim
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Jim, I'm not touching that first point any longer, other than to say that sometimes taking the appropriate actions can be unpopular when the deeper background of the entirety of situations is not well known. Point B to C can look bad, when in reality Point A changes the entire prism of your viewpoint.

The term lady is thought by many leading feminists to be demeaning. It is often thought that the more demeaning the situation for a female, the more likely the term lady is to be used as a descriptor in a manner that is condescending. Its proper usage should only be in comparable manner to the male counterpart of gentleman, and in sports lexicon that is not the case. Those holding a recognized viewpoint surrounding this matter agree that the proper comparable terminology that is socially acceptable is woman/women. Lady doctor is thought to be condescending because no terminology like that is used for males. There are congressmen and businessmen and garbage men; but there are no garbage gentlemen. Therefore, I ascertain that the proper terminology as recognized by leading feminists is the similar form of woman. That makes the argument by those thinking they are protective of the female athletes to be injurious in the eyes of most leading feminists, who are our leading thinkers on the matters of protecting women and their rights.
 
#544
#544
reverseosmosis said:
Jim, I'm not touching that first point any longer, other than to say that sometimes taking the appropriate actions can be unpopular when the deeper background of the entirety of situations is not well known. Point B to C can look bad, when in reality Point A changes the entire prism of your viewpoint.

The term lady is thought by many leading feminists to be demeaning. It is often thought that the more demeaning the situation for a female, the more likely the term lady is to be used as a descriptor in a manner that is condescending. Its proper usage should only be in comparable manner to the male counterpart of gentleman, and in sports lexicon that is not the case. Those holding a recognized viewpoint surrounding this matter agree that the proper comparable terminology that is socially acceptable is woman/women. Lady doctor is thought to be condescending because no terminology like that is used for males. There are congressmen and businessmen and garbage men; but there are no garbage gentlemen. Therefore, I ascertain that the proper terminology as recognized by leading feminists is the similar form of woman. That makes the argument by those thinking they are protective of the female athletes to be injurious in the eyes of most leading feminists, who are our leading thinkers on the matters of protecting women and their rights.
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So, we are doing this to appease "many leading feminists" like Christine Brennan? Do women in general find the term "Lady" denigrating? I don't think so. But, it doesn't really matter what I think, or many leading feminists think, or what you think, or what Christine Brennan thinks. It only matters what the women VOLS think-both past and present. Let's let the people who should decide make the decision.
 
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#545
#545
Sandvol said:
So, we are doing this to appease "many leading feminists" like Christine Brennan? Do women in general find the term "Lady" denigrating? I don't think so. But, it doesn't really matter what I think, or many leading feminists think, or what you think, or what Christine Brennan thinks. It only matters what the women VOLS think-both past and present. Let's let the people who should decide make the decision.
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They already did. You just can't accept it.
 
#547
#547
Why do we let two hired guns show up and make this monumental decision? Doesn't really make any sense. It's idiotic.
 
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#548
#548
reverseosmosis said:
Jim, I'm not touching that first point any longer, other than to say that sometimes taking the appropriate actions can be unpopular when the deeper background of the entirety of situations is not well known. Point B to C can look bad, when in reality Point A changes the entire prism of your viewpoint.

The term lady is thought by many leading feminists to be demeaning. It is often thought that the more demeaning the situation for a female, the more likely the term lady is to be used as a descriptor in a manner that is condescending. Its proper usage should only be in comparable manner to the male counterpart of gentleman, and in sports lexicon that is not the case. Those holding a recognized viewpoint surrounding this matter agree that the proper comparable terminology that is socially acceptable is woman/women. Lady doctor is thought to be condescending because no terminology like that is used for males. There are congressmen and businessmen and garbage men; but there are no garbage gentlemen. Therefore, I ascertain that the proper terminology as recognized by leading feminists is the similar form of woman. That makes the argument by those thinking they are protective of the female athletes to be injurious in the eyes of most leading feminists, who are our leading thinkers on the matters of protecting women and their rights.
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So what leading feminists have you talked to that has come out against sports nicknames? What is demeaning is a bunch of redneck sexists who would like nothing better than to continue to keep women down by telling them what is good and not good for them without asking for input. Title IX was passed to give women an equal playing field but as far as I know, says nothing about team nicknames. If the UT administration is so damned concerned about being fair to women, then they should've fired Hart and made Cronan the head AD and fired a bunch of male administrators, not all of the women administrators. JMO
 
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#549
#549
LADY VOLS...Don't let little Dave get ya down folks...LADY VOLS....They'll be here long after the little men are gone...LADY VOLS!!!
 
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