DC Black Hawk vs Plane crash, Philly Crash. Malicious, or incompotence?

#552
#552
walkenvol said:
Your clearly not a pilot or ATC if you think that was a call for evasive measures when the ATC determined the helo wasn’t on path to follow the last instruction to pass behind the jet.
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That's not what happened. The collision was seconds after that "last instruction," which was given because relying on visuals wasn't working
 
#554
#554
NashVol11 said:
Then you're not blaming Pete either. Again, what did the ATC fail to do, specifically, that would have been solved by more staffing?
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I’m blaming Pete. I blame Pete for not staffing the workers it’s not that hard. ATC workers were asked to do the job of two is their only fault.
 
#555
#555
Majors said:
I’m blaming Pete. I blame Pete for not staffing they workers it’s not that hard. ATC workers were asked to do the job of two of their only fault.
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For the third time, what specifically did the ATC fail to do that "more staffing" would have solved? Seems to me like the ATC did everything he was supposed to do
 
#556
#556
Majors said:
They were understaffed. So yes, the messed up. They are the ones flipping back and forth on frequencies communicating to both the plane and helicopter. I’m not blaming the ATC controller, I’m blaming the circumstance leading up to them being understaffed and not able to handle the situation.
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What did ATC do or not do that contributed to the crash?
 
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#557
#557
NashVol11 said:
That's not what happened. The collision was seconds after that "last instruction," which was given because relying on visuals wasn't working
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My information comes directly from a naval helicopter pilot who listened to the ATC recording leading up to the impact. He said it was ultimately the helo’s fault but was absolutely shocked that the ATC wasn’t screaming for evasive maneuvers. Choose not to believe it, but post the source of your information if you want to be taken seriously
 
#560
#560
NashVol11 said:
For the third time, what specifically did the ATC fail to do that "more staffing" would have solved? Seems to me like the ATC did everything he was supposed to do
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The job of two. I’ve it numerous times. He’s not supposed to do two jobs. You can ask again, the answer will be the same. Pete failed the ATC.
 
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#562
#562
Both sides here (politicians and posters in here) are engaged in pointless blame games and not focusing on what really happened that was tragic.

Human errors by all three parties but as I cited in earlier post, I blame the military more for engaging in this exercise in Commercial Airways, at night, with limited visibility. The fact that the copter was there with the flight path it took open the door for something like this to happen.
 
#563
#563
Majors said:
The job of two. I’ve it numerous times. He’s not supposed to do two jobs. You can ask again, the answer will be the same. Pete failed the ATC.
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You're not answering it at all because there isn't an answer. "The job of two" isn't an answer if he handled that situation exactly as he was trained to, and if he didn't, explain specifically how he failed to do so
 
#564
#564
MercyPercy said:
I don't agree and that's the problem when discussing DEI, it means different things to different people. If Vance got into Yale over more qualified candidates because of his income/regional status, how is that any different from an African American who gets in due to racial/income status over a white kid with better credentials? The picking and choosing of what constitutes DEI in this thread seems to be based on "vibes" rather than consistent internal logic.
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depends on how the Yale program is set up. it comes down to semantics about how you see things, because they are similar as you point out.

UT had a couple programs that MAY be similar that were set for certain demographics. UT's base enrollment was one number, these programs had a certain number of slots that could be taken, but if no one took them, base enrollment for UT didn't go up that number. So it wasn't taking a poor kid over a more qualified rich kid as some would use "DEI" for. and yes some of those programs targeted minorities so there were some of Biden's "poor kids are just as smart as white kids". but they weren't taking a seat from someone else.

in cases of limitless options its hard for me to see it as DEI, because you aren't taking from someone else. maybe others see it differently.
 
#565
#565
walkenvol said:
My information comes directly from a naval helicopter pilot who listened to the ATC recording leading up to the impact. He said it was ultimately the helo’s fault but was absolutely shocked that the ATC wasn’t screaming for evasive maneuvers. Choose not to believe it, but post the source of your information if you want to be taken seriously
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Anyone can listen to the recording, it's everywhere. The helicopter pilot said he had a visual, and when he continued heading toward the plane anyway, ATC asked again and told him to pass behind it but then they collided. (And again, criticizing the judgment or lack of "screaming" of one person in hindsight has nothing to do with staffing volume)
 
#566
#566
NashVol11 said:
You're not answering it at all because there isn't an answer. "The job of two" isn't an answer if he handled that situation exactly as he was trained to, and if he didn't, explain specifically how he failed to do so
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Unfortunately, it is an answer, it is a proven answer based on what we know at this time. If you don’t like the answer, ask better questions.
 
#567
#567
NashVol11 said:
You're not answering it at all because there isn't an answer. "The job of two" isn't an answer if he handled that situation exactly as he was trained to, and if he didn't, explain specifically how he failed to do so
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Majors said:
Unfortunately, it is an answer, it is a proven answer based on what we know at this time. If you don’t like the answer, ask better questions.
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That's what I thought lol, no answer whatsoever because ATC didn't do anything wrong and "staffing" wouldn't have changed anything, "based on what we know at this time"
 
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#568
#568
Majors said:
Which ethnicity did he directly say? He didn’t, as it would be all over the MSM more then the actual crash. So which race are you assuming he’s blaming?

He just said DEI…where your head goes is up to you.
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I've literally posted his quote in this thread. He started whining about past admin saying it's "too white" then whining about "disabilities" (a program started under HIM) then said it's "common sense" this was caused by DEI.

He's full of ****. DEI isn't the root cause of all our ills....especially being that the "didn't earn it" bulls**t never existed within any program operating DEI services.

DEI is like...if a guy in a wheelchair can do the job, but has trouble commuting, you can let them work remote. If a woman is nursing, you can designate a room for nursing. If a person has severe allergies, you can offer food in the cafeteria for them.

It's not "Don't hire the white man because he's white and a man".
 
#569
#569
LouderVol said:
wheel chair access would be ADA, not DEI. DEI would be focusing on hiring the person in a wheel chair.

some of us have direct experience with the bolded that refutes that statement.

its never 100% either way, its not 100% about hiring unqualified people, but its also not 100% about NOT hiring unqualified people.

but also it has apparently nothing to do with this crash.
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ADA IS DEI. That's what you don't get. ADA is making accommodations to bring EQUITY and INCLUSION of those with physical disabilities.

But yeah, our dumb President gets up, riffs on stuff he doesn't understand (bleach for covid, sharpies on hurricane maps, condoms going to gaza, DEI in this crash, etc etc etc) and who believes it? The base. Those who know it's BS explains it away as "don't worry about what he says".

DEI helps break through the "it's who you know" part of hiring. Get qualified people in the door for interviews and if they're a fit: hire them.

Let's be honest: white republicans already use DEI when they get into fancy colleges.
 
#570
#570
jwells said:
ADA IS DEI. That's what you don't get. ADA is making accommodations to bring EQUITY and INCLUSION of those with physical disabilities.

But yeah, our dumb President gets up, riffs on stuff he doesn't understand (bleach for covid, sharpies on hurricane maps, condoms going to gaza, DEI in this crash, etc etc etc) and who believes it? The base. Those who know it's BS explains it away as "don't worry about what he says".

DEI helps break through the "it's who you know" part of hiring. Get qualified people in the door for interviews and if they're a fit: hire them.

Let's be honest: white republicans already use DEI when they get into fancy colleges.
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Did the air traffic controller have an ADA disability? Is there evidence he was a DEI hire ?

I suppose it's possible. But if Trump knew that he'd say so.
 
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#571
#571
jwells said:
ADA IS DEI. That's what you don't get. ADA is making accommodations to bring EQUITY and INCLUSION of those with physical disabilities.

But yeah, our dumb President gets up, riffs on stuff he doesn't understand (bleach for covid, sharpies on hurricane maps, condoms going to gaza, DEI in this crash, etc etc etc) and who believes it? The base. Those who know it's BS explains it away as "don't worry about what he says".

DEI helps break through the "it's who you know" part of hiring. Get qualified people in the door for interviews and if they're a fit: hire them.

Let's be honest: white republicans already use DEI when they get into fancy colleges.
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ADA doesn't work as DEI does.

ADA says you have to provide access to someone in a wheelchair in some manner that gives them equal access, regardless of there actually being someone in a wheelchair*. Not that you are encouraged to have someone in a wheelchair to provide access to as per DEI.

it also allows for two separate provisions. You can have stairs for "normal" people, as long as you have a ramp for "disabled" people. DEI would be "you can't have stairs, you can only provide a ramp as that is the equitable solution".

#late add, ADA also allows for separate entrances, not very equitable. you have to provide AN accessible entry, but it doesn't have to be the front door. now most good architects are going to do our best to make sure it is the front door, but ADA doesn't require it to be the front door.

*ADA also makes several provisions where ADA access is not required in work areas. somewhat ironically, Air Traffic Control Towers are exempt from ADA. (206.2.3.6_"In air traffic control towers, an accessible route shall not be required to serve the cab and the floor immediately below the cab"). I very much doubt DEI makes similar exceptions.

ADA has a lot of "common sensical" allowances that the more ideological focused DEI wouldn't allow.
 
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#574
#574
NashVol11 said:
That's what I thought lol, no answer whatsoever because ATC didn't do anything wrong and "staffing" wouldn't have changed anything, "based on what we know at this time"
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Not sure you’re in position to say proper staffing wouldn’t have changed anything. As a person doing two jobs was involved in a crash. So again, Pete failed his job.
 
#575
#575
Majors said:
Not sure you’re in position to say proper staffing wouldn’t have changed anything. So again, Pete failed his job.
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Burden of proof is on you to show that staffing would have changed anything and what would have changed about that conversation, but you can't, so we get meaningless word salad like this instead
 
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