DC Black Hawk vs Plane crash, Philly Crash. Malicious, or incompotence?

[ATC_VOL]

I'm interested, too. I've read where school/training can take up to 3 years, but that seems high. I do know it takes special people/cognitive ability to do the job. You can't just train anyone to do it.

If you get through the initial screening process (cognitive testing, physical, background check, drug testing, psych eval) you attend the academy for about 3 months. Roughly 50% of people at the academy wash out and never make it to a facility.

For those who pass, there is a period of time you study book work (maps, rules, etc) and must pass several tests on all of this. Next you train with fake airplanes in a simulator environment and see several ordinary and emergency type situations. You have multiple evaluations at the end of this training that you must pass to advance to the next stage.

Next, you finally get to talk to real aircraft. You have a trainer sit behind you to correct any mistakes you make. You have a certain amount of hours on each position you’re allowed to train. If your trainer has not recommended you before you reach the maximum allowed time, you’re done. If you are recommended then a supervisor sits with you and gives the final okay that you can work that position alone.

I got through all my training fairly quickly, fully certified about 2 years and 9 months after I started at the academy.

 

[lawgator1]

What we are seeing itt is a microcosm of the problem of guessing, speculating, theorizing, and without a sufficient basis in fact. People getting upset by it, as insulting to those who died, and to the truth.

A lesson, a principle, President Chaos will never understand.

 

[gcbvol]

The FAA Academy is in Oklahoma City. I’m not sure the numbers, but a decent portion of controllers are prior military, particularly on the Terminal (Tower) side. They also hire from off the street bids and I believe students who complete a special standardized CTI curriculum in college can even go straight to a facility and skip the academy.

The en-route academy is about four months long with about a 65% pass rate. Those who are successful choose from a list of Centers across the country. Some are busier or more complex than others. 70-80% of those trainees are fully successful and get certified. The on the job training process averages 2-3 years. Through attrition of unsuccessful students, retirements/medical disqualifications, and length of training the academy comes nowhere close to pumping out enough students to reach staffing goals.

The terminal side of the academy is a little shorter with a higher success rate. Those students start at a lower level facility and try to work their way up to higher facilities if they want more pay/more of a challenge or to someplace closer to home if they prioritize that. The movement process is seriously jacked up because of how poor staffing is at most facilities so controllers get stuck somewhere they are unhappy. This leads to some resigning or extra stressors at home.

A majority of ATC facilities I imagine have people working 6 day weeks and often 10 hour days especially in the summer. I averaged over 300 hours of OT the past three years. It can get brutal.

How effective are the candidates during the 2-3 years training period? Do most stick once they reach this point?

 

[gcbvol]

If you get through the initial screening process (cognitive testing, physical, background check, drug testing, psych eval) you attend the academy for about 3 months. Roughly 50% of people at the academy wash out and never make it to a facility.

For those who pass, there is a period of time you study book work (maps, rules, etc) and must pass several tests on all of this. Next you train with fake airplanes in a simulator environment and see several ordinary and emergency type situations. You have multiple evaluations at the end of this training that you must pass to advance to the next stage.

Next, you finally get to talk to real aircraft. You have a trainer sit behind you to correct any mistakes you make. You have a certain amount of hours on each position you’re allowed to train. If your trainer has not recommended you before you reach the maximum allowed time, you’re done. If you are recommended then a supervisor sits with you and gives the final okay that you can work that position alone.

I got through all my training fairly quickly, fully certified about 2 years and 9 months after I started at the academy.

Thank you (and Tri-Cities) for this. Appreciate the knowledge. I thought my neighbor's grandson was a controller when he was posted to a facility a couple years ago, but he was in training the whole time.

 

[walkenvol]

If you get through the initial screening process (cognitive testing, physical, background check, drug testing, psych eval) you attend the academy for about 3 months. Roughly 50% of people at the academy wash out and never make it to a facility.

For those who pass, there is a period of time you study book work (maps, rules, etc) and must pass several tests on all of this. Next you train with fake airplanes in a simulator environment and see several ordinary and emergency type situations. You have multiple evaluations at the end of this training that you must pass to advance to the next stage.

Next, you finally get to talk to real aircraft. You have a trainer sit behind you to correct any mistakes you make. You have a certain amount of hours on each position you’re allowed to train. If your trainer has not recommended you before you reach the maximum allowed time, you’re done. If you are recommended then a supervisor sits with you and gives the final okay that you can work that position alone.

I got through all my training fairly quickly, fully certified about 2 years and 9 months after I started at the academy.

Have you seen enough of the ATC Communications preceding the crash to formulate an opinion as to whether the ATC did everything correctly? In your opinion as an ATC, did this ATC involved provide every possible warning / instruction possible right up to impact? Could this ATC have directed other routing options several minutes earlier to avoid these aircraft crossing in close vicinity? TIA

 

[ATC_VOL]

I want to add as well, the FAA exceeded their hiring number the past few years and we are still losing staffing. It doesn’t keep up with retirements, training failures, and resignations.

It used to be rare people resigned. Now it’s become fairly common to see people get halfway through training and quit, or even certified people quit.

 

[gcbvol]

I want to add as well, the FAA exceeded their hiring number the past few years and we are still losing staffing. It doesn’t keep up with retirements, training failures, and resignations.

It used to be rare people resigned. Now it’s become fairly common to see people get halfway through training and quit, or even certified people quit.

Is the answer as simple as raising the quotas, or is there a qualified candidate issue as well?

 

[ATC_VOL]

Thank you (and Tri-Cities) for this. Appreciate the knowledge. I thought my neighbor's grandson was a controller when he was posted to a facility and couple years ago, but he was in training the whole time.

It is hard to explain to friends and family why you’re still training at that new job you took 3 years ago.

 

[Majors]

Fair. But do you see why trying to put it all on him is silly, though?

Where was it put all on him? Just holding him accountable for his part that could have been rectified during his tenure leading up to the crash.

 

[gcbvol]

It is hard to explain to friends and family why you’re still training at that new job you took 3 years ago.

Some jobs are more complex and important than others. I get why your work is so stressful, and am thankful you do what you do.

 

[ATC_VOL]

Have you seen enough of the ATC Communications preceding the crash to formulate an opinion as to whether the ATC did everything correctly? In your opinion as an ATC, did this ATC involved provide every possible warning / instruction possible right up to impact? Could this ATC have directed other routing options several minutes earlier to avoid these aircraft crossing in close vicinity? TIA

I would love to answer some of that but I won’t right now on a public forum. I would be speculating to a large extent as well as I’ve never worked in a tower, radar only for me. Same job title but they’re completely different jobs.

 

[gcbvol]

Where was it put all on him? Just holding him accountable for his part that could have been rectified during his tenure leading up to the crash.

It's sounding like there is no way he could have rectified the problem during his tenure. If he oversaw progress that might make him the most successful secretary in the last 3 administrations.

 

[ATC_VOL]

Is the answer as simple as raising the quotas, or is there a qualified candidate issue as well?

Both. Government shutdowns and covid hurt as well. Academy closes every time there’s a shutdown.

 

[Majors]

It's sounding like there is no way he could have rectified the problem during his tenure. If he oversaw progress that might make him the most successful secretary in the last 3 administrations.

He oversaw failure. Pete isn’t a victim as much as you want to paint it that way.

 

[gcbvol]

He oversaw failure. Pete isn’t a victim as much as you want to paint it that way.

And improved on the failure of the previous administration.

 

[BigOrangeMojo]

And improved on the failure of the previous administration.

Which didnt fail as much as the Obama admin....

 

[gcbvol]

Which didnt fail as much as the Obama admin....

Yeah. My whole point is playing the blame game is stupid. Especially singling out one person because of his politics and orientation. It's childish. When it comes to ATC staffing we're talking a multi-year, mult-factor problem. And when it takes up to 3 years to fill a position, how can one person fix it in a 4 year term? They can't.

 

[Grand Vol]

Yeah. My whole point is playing the blame game is stupid. Especially singling out one person because of his politics and orientation. It's childish. When it comes to ATC staffing we're talking a multi-year, mult-factor problem. And when it takes up to 3 years to fill a position, how can one person fix it in a 4 year term? They can't.

Why is it taking three years to begin with?

Furthermore, your thoughts on the class action lawsuit filed by the 2,000 qualified candidates that were dismissed from consideration?

 

[Orangeslice13]

Where was this sentiment of praying/asking to wait for details in the California lunacy thread after the wildfires?

Yes but what about……

 

[gcbvol]

Why is it taking three years to begin with?

Furthermore, your thoughts on the class action lawsuit filed by the 2,000 qualified candidates that were dismissed from consideration?

We have ATC folks here who have detailed why it takes that long. It's a complex role that requires significant training after going through school.

The lawsuit was from the Obama administration. If it has merit, they will win in court. Right now, we just have claims. But it sounds like the 1,100 plaintiffs all failed a new test introduced under that admin. Personally, I think they probably got screwed, but I don't know all the details.

None of this is Pete's fault. The ATC shortage has been going on for years. Obama admin was bad, Trump admin did nothing to address it, and then COVID hit. Pete took over with the shortage at its worst. And he's supposed to fix everyone else's **** ups in 4 years? How?

 

[Vol8188]

What we are seeing itt is a microcosm of the problem of guessing, speculating, theorizing, and without a sufficient basis in fact. People getting upset by it, as insulting to those who died, and to the truth.

A lesson, a principle, President Chaos will never understand.

We actually agree. Honeslty, the Biden admin was so radical that this doesn’t make me second guess my decision. But I do wish Trump had more composure/restraint at times

 

[StarRaider]

It is hard to explain to friends and family why you’re still training at that new job you took 3 years ago.

a job with grave consequences if 100 percent accuracy is not met maybe?

 

[Grand Vol]

We have ATC folks here who have detailed why it takes that long. It's a complex role that requires significant training after going through school.

The lawsuit was from the Obama administration. If it has merit, they will win in court. Right now, we just have claims. But it sounds like the 1,100 plaintiffs all failed a new test introduced under that admin. Personally, I think they probably got screwed, but I don't know all the details.

None of this is Pete's fault. The ATC shortage has been going on for years. Obama admin was bad, Trump admin did nothing to address it, and then COVID hit. Pete took over with the shortage at its worst. And he's supposed to fix everyone else's **** ups in 4 years? OK.

You can't not lay some of the blame at his feet either. He took over in 2021 and had ample opportunity to make changes as well. In hiring practices, in training and in technology.

Did he?

You say he shouldn't be judged on his lifestyle and party affiliation... I say you can't absolve him of blame because of it either. Look, I don't care that he's gay, he was an ineffective Secretary. And I also look long term that is not just a Pete problem. It's a lot like the VA when people tried to blame Obama for their failings.

It's not just an Obama problem... it's a Biden problem, a Trump problem, a Bush problem, a Clinton problem, a Daddy Bush, problem, etc.

Just like the woes at the DOT aren't just Pete's problem...

But what did he do to fix it? And you know the answer as well as I do.

 

[NashVol11]

Yeah. My whole point is playing the blame game is stupid. Especially singling out one person because of his politics and orientation. It's childish. When it comes to ATC staffing we're talking a multi-year, mult-factor problem. And when it takes up to 3 years to fill a position, how can one person fix it in a 4 year term? They can't.

He also continued to request more funding for this exact thing

Buttigieg: US needs more air traffic controllers

Transportation Secretary Pete Buttigieg said more air traffic controllers are needed to address the concerns of them being overworked. Buttigieg said the administration is requesting funding from …

thehill.com

“We need more, and we’re hiring more,” Buttigieg said Wednesday on MSNBC’s “Morning Joe.”

“If you look at just a chart over the last 30 years or so, the number of air traffic controllers has gone down and down and down, until recently where we finally got that number going up,” he continued.

“We hired 1,500, then 1,800 in this year. We’re requesting a budget from Congress and let us hire 2,000 next year so that you don’t have as much of this concern about controllers being overworked.”

Following the report, the Federal Aviation Administration (FAA) issued new rules and guidelines to deal with reports of fatigue among air traffic controllers. The new rules, which will take effect this summer, mandate controllers take 12 hours off before midnight shifts and 10 hours off between regular shifts.

“These controllers are pros, and it’s extraordinary what they do, but we need to support them for that very reason, with the right kind of space between their shifts with more controllers coming into their ranks, and importantly, with better technology,” Buttigieg said.

 

[BeardedVol]

You can't not lay some of the blame at his feet either. He took over in 2021 and had ample opportunity to make changes as well. In hiring practices, in training and in technology.

Did he?

You say he shouldn't be judged on his lifestyle and party affiliation... I say you can't absolve him of blame because of it either. Look, I don't care that he's gay, he was an ineffective Secretary. And I also look long term that is not just a Pete problem. It's a lot like the VA when people tried to blame Obama for their failings.

It's not just an Obama problem... it's a Biden problem, a Trump problem, a Bush problem, a Clinton problem, a Daddy Bush, problem, etc.

Just like the woes at the DOT aren't just Pete's problem...

But what did he do to fix it? And you know the answer as well as I do.

He arrested the decade long decline in staffing.



And in 2023 and 2024 the FAA hit their goal for ATC hires.

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-1500-controller-hiring-goal-2023

https://www.faa.gov/newsroom/faa-hits-air-traffic-controller-hiring-goal