Department of Government Efficiency - DOGE

[Thunder Good-Oil]

No, but the idea that all coding could easily be outsourced because coders can work from home is pretty silly.

Again, in practice, outsourcing all of it doesn't work well. You end up with delays and hiring people here to fix the dirty code from abroad. These guys are paid scraps and as a result don't always understand the project or have a firm grasp of what the company here is asking for.

It should be pretty clear what the government needs.

Are you saying that foreigners write dirty code? Often they are better educated and harder workers than the domestics.

Seems like if a government job can be performed effectively by the WFH employees based in the US then that work can also be performed effectively, and probably more efficiently, by foreign based remote workers as well.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

An income tax would have benefited almost everyone...except the wealthy. But they convinced the vast majority of Tennesseans, most of whom would pay little to no tax, that a sales tax 2nd in the nation would be better.

My goodness you love government.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Amazon is. Wall St is.
Anecdotally I’ve heard of multiple others that have ended remote/hybrid.

It’s certainly not expanding, it’s contracting. It will continue to do so imo.

I'm sure there is a sweet spot. I am looking forward to the remotely piloted airliner gig. Sit in my jammies at home and operate my flight to Seoul.

I would really miss kimchee and soju on the layover though.

 

[utvolpj]

It should be pretty clear what the government needs.

Are you saying that foreigners write dirty code? Often they are better educated and harder workers than the domestics.

Seems like if a government job can be performed effectively by the WFH employees based in the US then that work can also be performed effectively, and probably more efficiently, by foreign based remote workers as well.

It technically can but it's very hard to do. I've worked with Indian devs in the US and with those who are not. Outsourcing only specific projects is basically worthless. The ones who are dedicated to a specific corporation are better but it's still hard for them to understand the US. The sponsored ones are better as they live in the US and can communicate better. Not really much difference in those being remote or office

 

[Orange_Crush]

It should be pretty clear what the government needs.

Are you saying that foreigners write dirty code? Often they are better educated and harder workers than the domestics.

Seems like if a government job can be performed effectively by the WFH employees based in the US then that work can also be performed effectively, and probably more efficiently, by foreign based remote workers as well.

Think of the data. Developers work with data. A lot of the gov't data has restrictions on who can see it, from where--i.e. don't leave the country. That means that gov't assets (wkstns, laptops) can't leave the country. Thus, much of the gov't work has to be done in-country.

For gov't employees, most have to have exception approvals just to travel out of country with their gov't issued assets (or any asset that may connect to gov't systems). Imagine foreign countries that either own or can listen in on mobile data and/or wifi traffic. If you connect with your gov't-assigned asset, then you've potentially compromised the system and data. (I've worked in the role to scope and mitigate people who broke that rule--whether by ignorance, stupidity, or approved exception.)

That's the primary reason it generally can't be outsourced oversees. It can be outsourced, and most often is. But it generally has to be done in-country for most projects, I'd say.

 

[utvolpj]

My wife has worked from home for 10yrs without issue and I'm hybrid. Usually with big corps the IT is separate anyways too if you deal with business people they'll never know who is remote vs office. They also aren't always the most social and will use teams even when close by. I maybe have 1-2 in person mtgs a month

 

[hog88]

I'm sure there is a sweet spot. I am looking forward to the remotely piloted airliner gig. Sit in my jammies at home and operate my flight to Seoul.

I would really miss kimchee and soju on the layover though.

Airlines could go pilotless for most of their flights if we're ready to accept that 1 out of ? times when a pilot is needed.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I'm sure there is a sweet spot. I am looking forward to the remotely piloted airliner gig. Sit in my jammies at home and operate my flight to Seoul.

I would really miss kimchee and soju on the layover though.

How do you feel about drone-strike assassinations? Your WFH opportunity with the US Gov't may have passed, but you'd have had a great opportunity 10-12 years ago. Heck, unless the Mexican cartel retires, there may be a career boon for you under the Trump administration.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

It technically can but it's very hard to do. I've worked with Indian devs in the US and with those who are not. Outsourcing only specific projects is basically worthless. The ones who are dedicated to a specific corporation are better but it's still hard for them to understand the US. The sponsored ones are better as they live in the US and can communicate better. Not really much difference in those being remote or office

It’s probably easiest to have them working in the office.

But I’m talking about all of the WFH government jobs. Coders are just a sliver. If the argument is that the WFH government employees are doing the work just as well as those government employees that commute to the offices, then those jobs can also be done by workers anywhere in the world with good connectivity. And at considerably lower wages. We use them to pick our crops and build our buildings. We can also put them in front of computers wearing headsets to answer Memaw’s questions about he Medicare and Social Security.

 

[utvolpj]

It’s probably easiest to have them working in the office.

But I’m talking about all of the WFH government jobs. Coders are just a sliver. If the argument is that the WFH government employees are doing the work just as well as those government employees that commute to the offices, then those jobs can also be done by workers anywhere in the world with good connectivity. And at considerably lower wages. We use them to pick our crops and build our buildings. We can also put them in front of computers wearing headsets to answer Memaw’s questions about he Medicare and Social Security.

Devs? My point was that it's basically irrelevant as long as they're in the us

Why would an accountant need to be in the office? Purchasing? AP/AR? Nothing about those jobs needs a specific building location but likely requires at least a US based desk due to security.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

Airlines could go pilotless for most of their flights if we're ready to accept that 1 out of ? times when a pilot is needed.

They are getting closer, but it isn't quite there yet. The problem is connectivity with ground stations needed for continuous control. LOS (loss of signal) could be really bad because the airplane will eventually run out of gas. Airbus has a proof of concept test bed (it is an A350... the airplane I fly) that can complete a flight while remotely piloted. Boeing is still ****ing around stretching existing 737s.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Think of the data. Developers work with data. A lot of the gov't data has restrictions on who can see it, from where--i.e. don't leave the country. That means that gov't assets (wkstns, laptops) can't leave the country. Thus, much of the gov't work has to be done in-country.

For gov't employees, most have to have exception approvals just to travel out of country with their gov't issued assets (or any asset that may connect to gov't systems). Imagine foreign countries that either own or can listen in on mobile data and/or wifi traffic. If you connect with your gov't-assigned asset, then you've potentially compromised the system and data. (I've worked in the role to scope and mitigate people who broke that rule--whether by ignorance, stupidity, or approved exception.)

That's the primary reason it generally can't be outsourced oversees. It can be outsourced, and most often is. But it generally has to be done in-country for most projects, I'd say.

We have this thing called the cloud. And secure networks.

I never said that 100% of all government work can or should be done overseas. But if there’s a lot of savings that can be found by DOGE by allowing WFH, then much of that work can be done overseas. Including IT.

 

[SpaceCoastVol]

How do you feel about drone-strike assassinations? Your WFH opportunity with the US Gov't may have passed, but you'd have had a great opportunity 10-12 years ago. Heck, unless the Mexican cartel retires, there may be a career boon for you under the Trump administration.

I become unsafe to fly airliners next summer. Well, that's what the pilot union says anyway, and the government bought it.

As far as the drone strike question, are you asking about the political ramifications or the technical hurdles? I couldn't care less about the former, and the latter, as I said is getting better, but still far from good enough to bet 300 lives on... imho.

 

[utvolpj]

We have this thing called the cloud. And secure networks.

I never said that 100% of all government work can or should be done overseas. But if there’s a lot of savings that can be found by DOGE by allowing WFH, then much of that work can be done overseas. Including IT.

How many overseas IT teams have you worked directly with?

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

Devs? My point was that it's basically irrelevant as long as they're in the us

Why would an accountant need to be in the office? Purchasing? AP/AR? Nothing about those jobs needs a specific building location but likely requires at least a US based desk due to security.

Why would US based WFH desks be more secure? Remote work is remote work. It’s the people doing the jobs that are generally the security risk. Biden and Trump had classified documents unsecured in their homes.

 

[Orange_Crush]

We have this thing called the cloud. And secure networks.

I never said that 100% of all government work can or should be done overseas. But if there’s a lot of savings that can be found by DOGE by allowing WFH, then much of that work can be done overseas. Including IT.

I've never said you did, or that some couldn't. I actually affirmed that some technical work can be done oversees. I merely explained why most probably can't.

I answered for clarity, from someone who's been inside the system. Not to undermine your post.

 

[Orange_Crush]

I become unsafe to fly airliners next summer. Well, that's what the pilot union says anyway, and the government bought it.

As far as the drone strike question, are you asking about the political ramifications or the technical hurdles? I couldn't care less about the former, and the latter, as I said is getting better, but still far from good enough to bet 300 lives on... imho.

It was just a joke, likely in bad taste.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

How many overseas IT teams have you worked directly with?

What’s that got to do with anything I’ve said?

Why would there be geographical boundaries for remote workers? “Teams” don’t need to live in the same place.

 

[Orange_Crush]

What’s that got to do with anything I’ve said?

Why would there be geographical boundaries for remote workers? “Teams” don’t need to live in the same place.

I just posted reasons, from an official gov't policy perspective.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I've never said you did, or that some couldn't. I actually affirmed that some technical work can be done oversees. I merely explained why most probably can't.

I answered for clarity, from someone who's been inside the system. Not to undermine your post.

This is a post by jwells directed at me:

The idea that me sitting in a chair at home vs at the office means someone in India could just do the job is pretty dumb.

 

[Thunder Good-Oil]

I just posted reasons, from an official gov't policy perspective.

Maybe DOGE can cut (expose) the red tape policies that result in bloated budgets.

 

[85SugarVol]

Depends on the company and the culture. I've worked from home my whole career (12+ years now), because I've got about 3 or 4 primary contracts with 3 or 4 offices and projects in different countries. My company is very small, we're all remote, we all work on essentially fixed price contracts, but we get together at bars and on project sites as needed. I don't think the (remote) owner is going to cut remote employees first.

Now, for some of the big boys we work with, I am certain they'll start axing people IF they have to, but even in a downturn, the issue will continue that they can't hire enough qualified candidates to staff the contracts they have. It's a weird situation- can they actually afford to fire the remote workers and backfill them? Right now the answer is no.

There's an interesting stalemate and a lot of power split between employee and company right now.

No, I wouldn’t imagine remote firms/owners would cut remote workers.

I don’t have a lot of experience (hardly any) in small/boutique orgs.

I spent 10 years at a blue blood fortune 100.
Then did a 3 year stint with Big Tech.
Then a few years with an international conglomerate.
Now I’m back at a more traditional fortune 100.

All adopted remote/hybrid during Covid.
All have, or have started, paring it back.

There is no stalemate or power split in Big Corporate America.

They want them back in office. So they will come back to office, or they won’t work there. And there are fewer remote options to go to if they leave.

And they’re not “firing” the remote workers - they’re requiring their return and accepting the 10-20% attrition that comes with it.

 

[Gandalf]

It should be pretty clear what the government needs.

Are you saying that foreigners write dirty code? Often they are better educated and harder workers than the domestics.

Seems like if a government job can be performed effectively by the WFH employees based in the US then that work can also be performed effectively, and probably more efficiently, by foreign based remote workers as well.

Yes, foreigners write dirty code. Worse, they have no idea what in line documentation is.

Eastern EU programmers are better though and can usually be trusted to actually do something without handholding.

 

[LouderVol]

Many employees recognize that most of their coworkers are much less productive when working from home.

then do your job and manage those individuals who can't work from home successfully. taking a blanket statement of some not being able to work from home and applying it to all is just lazy and counterproductive.

 

[CobbVol]

We have more government employees than what we need. The new administration needs to:

- Announce workers will need to report to the office going forward.
- Allow workers who wish to not do so to resign to save money and time for them being fired.
- Investigate moving departments to other locations in the US and away from the high cost area of DC.
- Save money all around - efficient.