Derek Chauvin trial

[Volgolfer1618]

People who actually cannot breathe generally lack the air in their lungs necessary to say "I can't breathe".

The "knee hold" Chauvin was using was/is widely used to hold a larger, stronger, or actively resisting person on the ground. If done right, there is almost no pressure on the neck area. There are a couple of ways to do it: (1) The neck area is in the crook of the lower leg / ankle, and they only feel pressure if they try to raise their head, or (2) The knee is actually between the shoulder blades, and pressure is applied to keep them on the ground. Looking at the video, I cannot tell which technique was used. But much like the old lateral vascular restraint (LVR) popularized by LAPD to take down a combative subject, I think the days of using the technique Chauvin used are numbered, if not already over. It is what it is. Unless you've tried to control someone bigger and stronger than you who's hyped up on Meth, Crack, Coke, or whatever, then you have no idea what it's like to be in those shoes. I had a meth head who maybe went a buck-thirty soaking wet break everything in the bathroom of a single-wide trailer...with me. Trust me, it's a humbling experience.

George Floyd's death, while likely inevitable due to his Fentanyl level, is sad. He made bad choices, and in the end he paid the ultimate price for them. That his death occurred either in or at the hands of Derek Chauvin remains a subject of debate. The jury has a tough decision to make. I'm glad I'm not among them. If a guy jumps off a 300 ft cliff, his death is imminent. But if you shoot him halfway down, who is responsible for his death, him or you? In the end, does it really matter?

I've been where Chauvin was. No one died. But I've also called a squad for a guy we were going to arrest for assault, who went into cardiac arrest as a result of excited delirium due to the drugs in his system. Fortunately, he survived. And eventually went to jail. But I look at this case and ask myself what would have happened if our guy had coded out and not made it.

There but for the grace of God go I. So I'm left with trusting the jury to weigh the evidence, and make the right call. I figure it's 50/50 they get it right. I don't know what "right" is.

I'm just glad it's not me on trial.

You're just being a boot licker as some say if you believe that.

 

[Volgolfer1618]

He probably will be found guilty of manslaughter. That will not be enough to appease the mob. The National Guard had better be ready. Cities will burn, innocent stores and businesses will be looted and bystanders will be singled out and killed.

Shouldn't be allowed but the powers that be will see it as a pop off valve. Sad that we allow our streets to be taken by the lawless panderers feigning a hissie fit.

Ohhhh but trump is bad. They're just peaceful protests.

 

[StarRaider]

Did you read the autopsy report septic?

ha you think sepsis can read lol

 

[GreyWolf1129]

You're just being a boot licker as some say if you believe that.

I believe what I believe. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

I don't let what anyone else thinks about it move the needle on my moral compass by one degree. There will come a day when I will stand and be judged for my actions and my beliefs, but it won't come here. I'm good with that.

Keep safe out there, y'hear?

 

[Volgolfer1618]

I believe what I believe. Sometimes I'm right, sometimes I'm wrong.

I don't let what anyone else thinks about it move the needle on my moral compass by one degree. There will come a day when I will stand and be judged for my actions and my beliefs, but it won't come here. I'm good with that.

Keep safe out there, y'hear?

Agreed 1000%

 

[hUTch2002]

You've seen the video, right? I mean, you do know that Chauvin had his knee on the dudes back and neck for ten minutes. Lol, wtf are you even talking about, the drugs and heart troubles were a loaded gun, but Chauvin pulled the trigger.

If those things were the loaded gun then you can’t possibly know what pulled the trigger and neither can the ME. They’re guessing based on the video. Without that video they easily would have said OD based on the amount of drugs in his system. Reasonable doubt.

 

[Septic]

If those things were the loaded gun then you can’t possibly know what pulled the trigger and neither can the ME. They’re guessing based on the video. Without that video they easily would have said OD based on the amount of drugs in his system. Reasonable doubt.

......but we do have the video. No guess work needed.

The ME doesn't have to guess or work backwards to guess at what may have triggered the demise of Mr. Floyd.

 

[hUTch2002]

......but we do have the video.

The ME doesn't have to guess or work backwards to guess at what may have triggered the demise of Mr. Floyd.

But there’s literally absolutely no way to know 100% for sure. There was zero damage to the neck and upper back, not even bruising.

 

[hUTch2002]

His larynx and hyoid were intact. No evidence of compression like petechial hemorrhaging or bruising in the neck and upper back. His injuries were superficial on his face. He was a walking dead man the minute he swallowed the drugs. Did you read the autopsy report septic?

See, I’m not even saying that stuff definitely killed him. All the defense needs to show is that’s it is possible and it most certainly is. I have no idea what killed Floyd. All I know is that if it’s even possible the drugs and/or heart condition killed him then that is called reasonable doubt.

 

[hUTch2002]

It’s highly conflicting. His medical conditions, the blockages in his LAD 75% and most of his RCA
( both these supply the ventricles ) thickening of both his ventricles of the heart, no evidence of compression of breathing structure, no evidence of hemorrhaging or bruising in and around neck and back.
The statement of both ME’s about the condition of the lung tissue being inundated with fluid coupled with the above is pretty conclusive to his heart failing secondary to drug effect leading to pulmonary edema which caused his death. The whole time he was in custody fentanyl was leaching into his system slowly overriding the amphetamines.
Ignoring his statements about not being able to breathe were dangerous. He was drowning in his own lung fluid.
If he hadn’t passed that fake bill
If he wasn’t hopped up on amphetamines
If he hadn’t swallowed a lethal dose of fentanyl

If Chauvin didn’t show wanton disregard for the condition of someone in his custody and who he was responsible for

GF killed himself Chauvin is guilty of watching it happen without acting.

Your last 2 statements are why I think that 2nd degree manslaughter will stick.

 

[Septic]

But there’s literally absolutely no way to know 100% for sure. There was zero damage to the neck and upper back, not even bruising.

It's not that they're just experts in the field, but literally all three of the pathologists that examined the body (including the tox screens) concluded that it was a homicide. (No commentary made here on intent)

I admit that my argument here is an appeal to authority but are you saying they are wrong and that your internet sleuthing along with message board banter gives you better insight into the pathophysiology, physics and or mechanics of this?

Could Chauvin skate on a bit of reasonable doubt? Perhaps. Could Mr. Floyd have died later on that day from his drug usage? Perhaps. Heck, I don't even think many wouldn't argue he was a complete POS, I know I wouldn't. But the fact that the detractors keep flouting are that the ONLY people qualified to determine the cause and manner of death all say it was due to Chauvin's actions. Isn't what is a stronger argument than what might have been?

I think Chauvin gets manslaughter.

 

[hUTch2002]

Yes, it's possible. But it's also possible that had the cops not touched him he would have passed out, slept it off, and maybe woken up in the ER. It's also possible that he would have tripped on the curb, busted his head open, and died from his wounds.



That argument is going to require an affirmative defense. It's not going to be enough to say "he had a pharmacy coursing thru his veins." They're going to have to produce medical experts who will say "Chauvin didn't kill him. He was going to die within minutes no matter what."



It's entirely possible. But that leads to the entire issue of depraved indifference on Chauvin's part. He held his knee to Floyd's neck for several minutes after Floyd had stopped breathing. He was clearly more concerned with the onlookers than the man underneath him. He hadn't drug tested Floyd, thus he could not have known how on the verge of ODing Floyd might have been. Floyd was in Chauvin's sole control, complained of distress, and became unresponsive, and Chauvin didn't give even half a damn.

I think you’re confused again on presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt but it is what it is.

 

[hUTch2002]

You have never been around many ODs

People think ODs have seizures, foaming at the mouth, etc. when often they simply shut down.

 

[hUTch2002]

......but we do have the video. No guess work needed.

The ME doesn't have to guess or work backwards to guess at what may have triggered the demise of Mr. Floyd.

They literally said they guessed based on watching the video. They didn’t use the word guess of course but that’s what they are saying. If the same things happened only there was physical evidence like brushing or damage to the upper back and neck, the ME watched the video, and said they ruled it as an OD then you’d be all up in arms because you wouldn’t believe the ME.

 

[hUTch2002]

It's not that they're just experts in the field, but literally all three of the pathologists that examined the body (including the tox screens) concluded that it was a homicide. (No commentary made here on intent)

I admit that my argument here is an appeal to authority but are you saying they are wrong and that your internet sleuthing along with message board banter gives you better insight into the pathophysiology, physics and or mechanics of this?

Could Chauvin skate on a bit of reasonable doubt? Perhaps. Could Mr. Floyd have died later on that day from his drug usage? Perhaps. Heck, I don't even think many wouldn't argue he was a complete POS, I know I wouldn't. But the fact that the detractors keep flouting are that the ONLY people qualified to determine the cause and manner of death all say it was due to Chauvin's actions. Isn't what is a stronger argument than what might have been?

I think Chauvin gets manslaughter.

I actually agree with most of what you said. But I promise you there are medical experts that will say it’s possible the drugs killed him. You even said it. That’s all that’s required. I’m not saying what did or didn’t kill Floyd as I have zero idea. All I’ve said the entire time is that it’s possible it wasn’t all on Chauvin. All the defense needs is resolve doubt and those murder charges are gone. I agree we will end up on that 2nd degree manslaughter.

 

[Septic]

They literally said they guessed based on watching the video. They didn’t use the word guess of course but that’s what they are saying. If the same things happened only there was physical evidence like brushing or damage to the upper back and neck, the ME watched the video, and said they ruled it as an OD then you’d be all up in arms because you wouldn’t believe the ME.

What makes you think I'm "up in arms?" I don't have a dog in this fight, I'm simply debating the merits of the facts and the fact is that three pathologists that examined the body ruled it a homicide while internet folks keep saying it wasn't and it's bewildering.

 

[Septic]

I actually agree with most of what you said. But I promise you there are medical experts that will say it’s possible the drugs killed him. You even said it. That’s all that’s required. I’m not saying what did or didn’t kill Floyd as I have zero idea. All I’ve said the entire time is that it’s possible it wasn’t all on Chauvin. All the defense needs is resolve doubt and those murder charges are gone. I agree we will end up on that 2nd degree manslaughter.

I was never debating what level of guilt Chauvin ends up catching, just that his actions as ruled by the pathologists (whether intentional or not) directly lead to Mr. Floyds demise.

 

[hUTch2002]

I was never debating what level of guilt Chauvin ends up catching, just that his actions as ruled by the pathologists (whether intentional or not) directly lead to Mr. Floyds demise.

Ok. And all I’ve argued is there’s reasonable doubt about what ultimately killed him. It’s entirely possible it was Chauvin and it’s entirely possible it was drugs. I have no idea.

 

[Septic]

Ok. And all I’ve argued is there’s reasonable doubt about what ultimately killed him. It’s entirely possible it was Chauvin and it’s entirely possible it was drugs. I have no idea.

My contention is that while the drugs may have killed him eventually, Chauvin's direct actions and subsequent negligence did it first. This, as evidenced by the video, eyewitnesses and coroner rulings.

Again, what is, is the only thing relevant to the conversation - not what might have been.

 

[hUTch2002]

My contention is that while the drugs may have killed him eventually, Chauvin's direct actions and subsequent negligence did it first. This, as evidenced by the video, eyewitnesses and coroner rulings.

Again, what is, is the only thing relevant to the conversation - not what might have been.

It’s funny that we see it differently but both think the outcome will be the same.

 

[mr.checkerboards]

It's not that they're just experts in the field, but literally all three of the pathologists that examined the body (including the tox screens) concluded that it was a homicide. (No commentary made here on intent)

I admit that my argument here is an appeal to authority but are you saying they are wrong and that your internet sleuthing along with message board banter gives you better insight into the pathophysiology, physics and or mechanics of this?

Could Chauvin skate on a bit of reasonable doubt? Perhaps. Could Mr. Floyd have died later on that day from his drug usage? Perhaps. Heck, I don't even think many wouldn't argue he was a complete POS, I know I wouldn't. But the fact that the detractors keep flouting are that the ONLY people qualified to determine the cause and manner of death all say it was due to Chauvin's actions. Isn't what is a stronger argument than what might have been?

I think Chauvin gets manslaughter.

I agree with you on manslaughter or some kind of criminal negligence charge sticking for his failure to render aid, but i don't think we are going to like what happens next if that's all he gets. The mob isn't going to be happy with anything less than first degree murder.

 

[Septic]

I agree with you on manslaughter or some kind of criminal negligence charge sticking for his failure to render aid, but i don't think we are going to like what happens next if that's all he gets. The mob isn't going to be happy with anything less than first degree murder.

Well, if anyone expects 1st they're certainly going to be disappointed since it's not in the table.

 

[Silence Dogood]

'Maybe if I'd been there I could've helped': Cher is Mocked as a 'white savior' for bizarre tweet claiming she might have PREVENTED George Floyd's death during his arrest

Cher has been mocked as a 'white savior' for saying she could have helped prevent the death of George Floyd.

'Was talking With Mom & She Said 'I Watched Trial Of Policeman Who Killed George Floyd,& Cried'. I Said 'Mom,I Know This Is Gonna Sound CRAZY,But.. I Kept Thinking .....Maybe If I'd Been There,...I Could've Helped,' Cher tweeted.

Cher is mocked as a 'white savior' for tweeting that she might have prevented George Floyd's death | Daily Mail Online

 

[bamawriter]

I think you’re confused again on presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt but it is what it is.

I think you're confusing the presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt with unknowable hypotheticals. There is a significant difference between reasonable doubt and any and all doubt.

 

[hUTch2002]

I think you're confusing the presumption of innocence and reasonable doubt with unknowable hypotheticals. There is a significant difference between reasonable doubt and any and all doubt.

True, any and all doubt is different than reasonable doubt but when a man has more than the average lethal dose of fentanyl in his system plus many other drugs then it is reasonable to think there’s a chance that could have killed him whether he was on the ground or in the car. Floyd even said he would die in the car and that he couldn’t breathe before he ever had a knee on his back.