Did Butch Jones do a good job coaching this season?

[SaintLouisVol]

. . . hang your hat on realism and be happy when it works out

The only realism we have is the results we saw on the field this year and the recruiting commitments that have been reported.

With that we have some very "real" reasons to be optimistic along with some very "real" reasons to be skeptical and even discouraged.

8-4 next year is optimistic, but it will certainly be difficult to accept 5-7 again and give CBJ and staff another free pass.

 

[Vol in]

CBJs first year is like a glazed donut. Lots of good things happening off the field but still a hole on the field. I believe Butch will fill in the middle within 2 years and it has been comforting not seeing UT on the ESPN ticker for stupid and selfish acts by players.

:lolabove: Glazed Donut. Nice analogy. I am excited about the energy and passion that CBJ has brought to the job - I think it is paying dividends on the recruiting trail. But realistically we're all still in the "wait and see" mode.

 

[3rd_and_Jancek]

Fire Butch...We want Gruden. SOON

 

[beneVOLence]

Coaching? No Recruiting? Yes. We need some Jimmy's and Joes, but we should have beat Vandy and the Peterman experiment was a disaster.

 

[FiremedicVOL127]

We are starting to get all the pieces in place. Still need a QB, imo.

There woulda have been a different outcome this season,and we would be preparing for a bowl game had Worley not got injured!!
As long as Worley is healthy I believe he will be. Out starter next year. He had made, and was still making HUGE improvements from spring til he got hurt!

 

[oregonvol]

There woulda have been a different outcome this season,and we would be preparing for a bowl game had Worley not got injured!!
As long as Worley is healthy I believe he will be. Out starter next year. He had made, and was still making HUGE improvements from spring til he got hurt!

Once again, I wish I could see these huge improvements the rest of you saw. I saw a QB who was just as bad against Alabama as he was against Oregon. He never put up any impressive numbers. Excepting the Austin Peay game, he threw 8 interceptions vs. 7 touchdowns. 2 of those picks came in his last game, where he was barely .500 in completion percentage and threw for no touchdowns and had his lowest QB rating of the season. This was "huge improvement"? His completion percentage this year and his yards per attempt are roughly the same as it was in his true freshman year. I wish I could see these huge improvements everyone keeps talking about.

 

[FiremedicVOL127]

Once again, I wish I could see these huge improvements the rest of you saw. I saw a QB who was just as bad against Alabama as he was against Oregon. He never put up any impressive numbers. Excepting the Austin Peay game, he threw 8 interceptions vs. 7 touchdowns. 2 of those picks came in his last game, where he was barely .500 in completion percentage and threw for no touchdowns and had his lowest QB rating of the season. This was "huge improvement"? His completion percentage this year and his yards per attempt are roughly the same as it was in his true freshman year. I wish I could see these huge improvements everyone keeps talking about.

The improvements I speak of are his poise with being the leader on the field! I agree 100% that he needs improvement with his timing and leading recovers instead of throwing behind them. The further into the season we went his body language improved in the pocket, he become more confident in his passes and he got over his 2nd guessing of when to pull it down and run with it. Like I said tho he still needs improvement in many areas, but did show improvement in each game leading up to his injury. I woulda anticipated even more if he'd stayed healthy. And it seemed he could motivate the players to really focus and keep fighting even when playing from behind! It's just my take, my opinion that's all!

 

[BigTCountry]

The only realism we have is the results we saw on the field this year and the recruiting commitments that have been reported.

With that we have some very "real" reasons to be optimistic along with some very "real" reasons to be skeptical and even discouraged.

8-4 next year is optimistic, but it will certainly be difficult to accept 5-7 again and give CBJ and staff another free pass.

but then what fire him too after two years... I think we should get rid of our football prgram

 

[BigTCountry]

The improvements I speak of are his poise with being the leader on the field! I agree 100% that he needs improvement with his timing and leading recovers instead of throwing behind them. The further into the season we went his body language improved in the pocket, he become more confident in his passes and he got over his 2nd guessing of when to pull it down and run with it. Like I said tho he still needs improvement in many areas, but did show improvement in each game leading up to his injury. I woulda anticipated even more if he'd stayed healthy. And it seemed he could motivate the players to really focus and keep fighting even when playing from behind! It's just my take, my opinion that's all!

I remember way more lack of ability to run routes and catch footballs than problems at QB.. QB play needs to improved quick but wide receiver needs to improve equally as bad. I totally expected to see what I did at QB this year. No experience and young guys. its a time thing....

 

[sjt18]

The instant gratification generation folks will say Butch sucks. Compared to what I had to endure during the Johnny Majors era I'd say Butch is knocking it out of the park.

Majors had a NC and a Heisman winner on his resume before taking the job.

But most importantly, he didn't have to deal with the modern media, its effects on sports, or its effects on recruiting.

There was nothing like Volnation, Rivals, or an of a number of other blogs and news sites specifically dedicated to every detail of UT football. Mistakes weren't magnified or communicated with the speed or efficiency we see today.

The JUCO DT Jones lost today might have signed with Auburn without modern media... but it wouldn't have been the drama it was.

 

[sjt18]

The instant gratification generation folks will say Butch sucks. Compared to what I had to endure during the Johnny Majors era I'd say Butch is knocking it out of the park.

And before I forget.... about as often as not the failure of coaches to provide "instant gratification" as in something to believe in within 3 years (some "instant" there) leads to failure to ever give "gratification".

Coaches are capable when they get to the SEC or they're not going to make it. The SEC is no place for them to "grow up". They better be full grown men when they show up to play.

 

[sjt18]

I'm sure this is being discussed somewhere in the f-ball forum but I didn't see a dedicated thread...

Jones' recruiting kudos took a fairly significant hit today with the loss of Lambert.

Yes. It is easier to sell a team playing in the NC game than one that just went 5-7. But don't try to tell me out of the other side of your mouth that it isn't important for Jones to win early AND that the difference between 7-5 and 5-7 doesn't mean anything.

Many of you didn't/don't want to hear it but this effect will get MUCH worse if the staff doesn't figure out how to win big games with less than ideal rosters. They're going to have less than ideal rosters for at least a year and probably 2.

Recruits are attracted to winners. Right now, Jones is selling hope. He better be selling some reality in future years.

 

[oregonvol]

I'm sure this is being discussed somewhere in the f-ball forum but I didn't see a dedicated thread...

Jones' recruiting kudos took a fairly significant hit today with the loss of Lambert.

Yes. It is easier to sell a team playing in the NC game than one that just went 5-7. But don't try to tell me out of the other side of your mouth that it isn't important for Jones to win early AND that the difference between 7-5 and 5-7 doesn't mean anything.

Many of you didn't/don't want to hear it but this effect will get MUCH worse if the staff doesn't figure out how to win big games with less than ideal rosters. They're going to have less than ideal rosters for at least a year and probably 2.

Recruits are attracted to winners. Right now, Jones is selling hope. He better be selling some reality in future years.

Yeah, it amazes me the number of posters who just assume that Butch Jones can lose here for years and build up the talent base while doing it. It doesn't work like that. This will still probably be a good class even with the commits that will get cherry picked by more successful coaches, but it's doubtful he can keep selling the program to recruits going forward with more dismal seasons.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Yeah, it amazes me the number of posters who just assume that Butch Jones can lose here for years and build up the talent base while doing it. It doesn't work like that. This will still probably be a good class even with the commits that will get cherry picked by more successful coaches, but it's doubtful he can keep selling the program to recruits going forward with more dismal seasons.

name one. You are amazed at the number that think we can go 5-7 and no bowl every year while raking in a top class, so naming one freaking poster shouldn't be difficult.

 

[UTRavens]

Once again, I wish I could see these huge improvements the rest of you saw. I saw a QB who was just as bad against Alabama as he was against Oregon. He never put up any impressive numbers. Excepting the Austin Peay game, he threw 8 interceptions vs. 7 touchdowns. 2 of those picks came in his last game, where he was barely .500 in completion percentage and threw for no touchdowns and had his lowest QB rating of the season. This was "huge improvement"? His completion percentage this year and his yards per attempt are roughly the same as it was in his true freshman year. I wish I could see these huge improvements everyone keeps talking about.

Well gee, it sure is easy to build your little narrative when you focus specifically on the last game he played (while injured, I might add).

What about South Carolina? What about Georgia? Of course you'd conveniently ignore those games.

 

[oregonvol]

name one. You are amazed at the number that think we can go 5-7 and no bowl every year while raking in a top class, so naming one freaking poster shouldn't be difficult.

Here's one for you

this is why we need to give Coach Jones 4 years before we judge him at all. He has to get rid of all these 300 lb offensive linemen, pocket QB and physical receiver/ RB and get the right guys in for his system. Dooley recruited an SEC roster, this style does not require SEC size, so we'll have to have a few losing seasons before we "get it".

Hope VN is prepared for a few more years of losing, it'll take that to get the system working in knoxville.

Don't have time to go through and quote all the rest right now, but there are plenty where that came from.

 

[oregonvol]

Well gee, it sure is easy to build your little narrative when you focus specifically on the last game he played (while injured, I might add).

What about South Carolina? What about Georgia? Of course you'd conveniently ignore those games.

Are you a doctor? Did you examine Worley? How do you know how injured he was for the Alabama game or how much he aggravated it during the game? Butch Jones clearly thought he was healthy enough to start. But, because he played poorly, I guess we can conveniently chalk it all up to the injury, right? Even though, he played like that against Florida and Oregon too?

And it's not like he played exceptionally well against South Carolina or Georgia. He threw 1 touchdown in each game. His completion percentage was pretty much the same as other games, around 55%. The main thing he did well in those games was he didn't throw an interception. But we're talking about a span of two games, bookended by two performances (against South Alabama and Alabama) where he threw more interceptions than touchdowns. There really isn't a big enough sample size to conclude that he had really turned a corner or made a huge leap forward.

 

[majorvol]

So... why do you think Mizzou, Aub, Bama, and Oregon were over in the 1st qtr? If the players didn't quit, the coaches did a good job, and there was "some" talent (at least in the opinion of NFL draft analysts) why were those games uncompetitive blowouts?

Some talent I agree, so your saying this gave up in those games or were out coached . I don't believe it , you can run a marathon with a Kenya runner but your not going to catch him. You look at their last three recruiting class and compare with ours and you'll find the answer.

 

[sjt18]

name one. You are amazed at the number that think we can go 5-7 and no bowl every year while raking in a top class, so naming one freaking poster shouldn't be difficult.

Seriously? You honestly cannot remember the numerous posts assuring us that "recruiting" would bring the program back in response to some of us pointing out problems with the coaching this year? You really cannot piece together those saying 5-7 was good enough this year with 6 or so being good enough for next year and possibly the next... while assuring us that success will come some time later? It ain't coming without great players... and the great players ain't coming without proof that the coaches can win big games.

It will take some great... not good... GREAT coaching over the next couple of years to keep any kind of recruiting momentum going.

This is a bump in the road if the staff is capable of great coaching. It is the first chop of the ax if they aren't.

 

[sjt18]

Some talent I agree, so your saying this gave up in those games or were out coached . I don't believe it , you can run a marathon with a Kenya runner but your not going to catch him. You look at their last three recruiting class and compare with ours and you'll find the answer.

You can believe what you like... or you can look at the facts. The fact is several less talented teams played those 4 teams closer than UT did.

Talent was a major or even the main cause they lost. Coaching had ALOT to do with them being completely uncompetitive.

 

[Sandvol]

You hate it because he's a JUCO and could have potentially started right away. Don't see him doing that at Auburn. (Don't blame him though. Malzahn's a great coach.)

 

[TVOL71]

Pure BS. If that's the "reason" for past failures then the arrival of a positive and competent coach should have lifted the team. Instead, we saw just more of the same and maybe a little worse.

Don't agree. Dooley managed to start the season pretty well, but they always went down hill from there because of his negative approach (said the players did not know how bathe themselves and other such stupid counter productive things). Jones was clearly building the team up from the general losing attitude as shown by the Georgia and SC games. Then Bama, Mizzou and Auburn came along and clearly had more overall team talent, speed and depth than we had, and the mostly 18 to 21 year old players were demoralized (I suspect many of the older members of this forum would have been also with that kind of onslaught). Don't care much for Franklin's arrogance, reminds me if Kiffin, but he clearly has then believing in themselves more, and the Vols simply could not get back to that winning attitude that quick, but I think that, given time, they will.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

but then what fire him too after two years... I think we should get rid of our football prgram

Anyone with the slightest sense of pragmatism will dismiss both of those notions.

Releasing him after two years is a very bad idea for a long list of reasons. Apart from it being generally unfair, the university can't afford the financial impact, and it would make hiring another coach all the more difficult. We'd just end up taking another gamble on an "up and comer."

The verdict on CBJ is still out. That is the only point I am trying to make. He's been successful in very many ways, and he has also showed a tremendous amount of weakness in other ways. I just don't know which way this thing will go.

If the team finishes 5-7 next year, I think I'll have a better sense (depending on the circumstances of course). In the same way, If they go 7-5 or 8-4, you'll have a better sense as well.

 

[sjt18]

Don't agree. Dooley managed to start the season pretty well, but they always went down hill from there because of his negative approach (said the players did not know how bathe themselves and other such stupid counter productive things).

Dooley never started better than 3-3 at UT... and UT generally schedules two easy games in the first half of the season.

Jones was clearly building the team up from the general losing attitude as shown by the Georgia and SC games.

Jones was 3-3 after the first six games. The Oregon (10-2) game was over by the end of the 1st qtr. UF lost their starting QB and was playing with back up DB's most of the game. We now know they were NOT a good football team finishing 4-8. UGA's (8-4) injuries are well documented though I would give Jones credit for keeping that one competitive until the end.

In his year one, Dooley was also 3-3. He was 10-7 with Oregon at the half. The UF game was not decided until a pick in the 4th qtr. LSU was a weird loss that UT had "won" when the clock expired. Oregon played in the NC game that year. UF was 8-5. LSU was 11-2.

In anyway you want to compare, Dooley's results in year one were better than Jones' results. You can believe or hope (as I do) that it is somehow part of a plan and process... but that's what Dooley preached too.

Then Bama, Mizzou and Auburn came along and clearly had more overall team talent, speed and depth than we had,

Mizzou did not. You can tip your hat to their development, system, and the talented players they did have... but their talent was NOT what put UT out of that game. A good portion was Dobb's inexperience and mistakes. But a good portion was also coaching particularly on the D side.

and the mostly 18 to 21 year old players were demoralized (I suspect many of the older members of this forum would have been also with that kind of onslaught). Don't care much for Franklin's arrogance, reminds me if Kiffin, but he clearly has then believing in themselves more, and the Vols simply could not get back to that winning attitude that quick, but I think that, given time, they will.

That's a lame excuse. Dooley was roundly and rightly condemned because he "lost" his 2nd and 3rd teams. They became "demoralized" and lost their confidence and cohesion. That didn't happen so much in the first season however.

I would say it was far more Jones' lack of belief than the players in the Vandy game. He had more talent. Yet he chose to manage the game and play not to lose. UT played too conservative on both sides of the ball at critical times. It was only toward the end that Jones pulled the fake FG as he probably sensed the game slipping away.

Again, if we had seen positive (which I think we did) AND competent (which I'm afraid we didn't) coaching then this team should have been more competitive in those losses and should not have lost to Vandy.

 

[BigTCountry]

Anyone with the slightest sense of pragmatism will dismiss both of those notions.

Releasing him after two years is a very bad idea for a long list of reasons. Apart from it being generally unfair, the university can't afford the financial impact, and it would make hiring another coach all the more difficult. We'd just end up taking another gamble on an "up and comer."

The verdict on CBJ is still out. That is the only point I am trying to make. He's been successful in very many ways, and he has also showed a tremendous amount of weakness in other ways. I just don't know which way this thing will go.

If the team finishes 5-7 next year, I think I'll have a better sense (depending on the circumstances of course). In the same way, If they go 7-5 or 8-4, you'll have a better sense as well.

good way to end the debate.. I agree... but my statement you commented on was originally meant to be pure sarcasm