Did Butch Jones do a good job coaching this season?

[smyborovol]

Yes when adding recruiting into the equation its a big part of couching. This recruiting class saves our program imo.

 

[alltimevol2331]

I guess folks see what they want to see. I haven't really seen anyone dismiss the South Carolina win. I've praised it repeatedly. I have seen and argued with many many people on here in the past week who dismissed the Vanderbilt loss.

Case in point, this guy (dismissing the Vanderbilt loss is kind of his whole schtick):

Please tell me what I am not seeing. In my 30 plus years of going and watching the Vols, this team this year was the least talented, one of the slowest (compared to competition), out-manned, out-played and physically dominated UT team I have ever seen. I agree coaching has to come with game-plan, schemes, adjustments but to coach in the SEC a coach has to have players with talent that is close to the teams he is playing.

Let me spin it another way. Lets take the Lady Vols bb. Back when Summit was dominating the SEC year in and year out. Her talent was so far above all the other teams that regardless of the coach they could not compete against her. Sure they may have lost a game or two in conference here or there but for the most part she would win.

UT football is at that point now in the SEC. They do not have the talent to compete week in and week out in the SEC. Call it whatever you guys want, coaching, losing top recruits to other teams, AD, whatever the fact is UT talent is not anywhere close to compete in the SEC and only having 2 wins this season proofs that.

 

[alltimevol2331]

If he wasn't doing so well in recruiting, those %s would be reversed.

He's knocking it out of the park in recruiting, but he and his staff did a poor job this year. Anyone who says otherwise is just answering from their Vol homer heart.[/QUOTE]

I am answering for what I see on the field. His staff had very little to work with. You can't judge a first year coach when he walks into the toughest conference in football with a team that is nowhere close to competing.

 

[alltimevol2331]

Yes when adding recruiting into the equation its a big part of couching. This recruiting class saves our program imo.

I agree. The question is going to be can he and the coaches take the recruiting and develop them into a competitive SEC team. Something that Dooley could not do.

 

[sjt18]

You can't coach speed, you can't race a bicycle against a nascar, you can't take a knife to a gun fight.

You really think those analogies fit? LOL

Yes. You actually CAN coach speed. You teach players to be in the right place. You teach them how to disguise alignments. You use your alignments to force O's into plays then you cover those plays. You do what Wilcox did... You do what Kiffin did... You do what Chavis did... even when they didn't have ideal rosters and "speed".

Mizzou does not have great athletes on their D with the exception of Sam. That fact showed up vs Auburn. But all season long they showed what well coached, well prepared "good" athletes can accomplish.


The Auburn game was interesting. It reminded me of Grant's march on Richmond. Lincoln had gone through one general after another who overestimated Lee's forces. They chased him and let Lee choose the battlefield every time... often to their peril. Finally, Lincoln chooses a general in Grant who realizes that Lee simply does not have an army that can beat him. So... he begins a very deliberate march on Richmond... forcing Lee to put his army in front of Grant's... ending the war.

Auburn knew that Mizzou didn't have athletes. So... they did nothing fancy. They just ran right over them. Mizzou KNEW what they were going to do. They were in or tried to get in position to stop them... they just couldn't.

Several other teams could have done similar vs Mizzou... and didn't.

 

[Burger]

Sorry. But no. Coaches, coach. Those games had EVERYTHING to do with coaching. Three of them were complete roster mismatches. When Kiffin faced that in 09... he took Bama and UF to the wire. When Dooley faced it in '10, he at least had UT in the Oregon and Bama games at the half. UT laid down in those losses. They played like homecoming fodder. Yes. Players bear big blame there... but so do coaches.

That's what separates great coaching from average or bad coaching. Getting more out of a team than the sum of its talent.

You're a funny man. You use one season to judge Butch. Not his previous experience, peers, NFL players, and even his big win this year. I said we were a five win team assuming mizzou and auburn got no better. They both got better, so it knocked our ceiling to 3 games. We were lucky to win five. Time will prove either one of us right.

 

[sjt18]

You're a funny man. You use one season to judge Butch.

Come on. You've been here a long time. You are MUCH better than this non-sense. You KNOW... if you've read a small fraction of my posts that I am NOT making a final judgment.

I am judging the staff's performance in this ONE season. It wasn't good. Sorry if I cannot call something bad, good... but I can't.

Not his previous experience, peers, NFL players, and even his big win this year.

If you want to parse his previous experience and discuss its relevance to the SEC... we can do that. The only thing on this list that matters one iota in the discusion of his performance in THIS season is that one big win. And that it is countered by several poor performances.

I said we were a five win team assuming mizzou and auburn got no better. They both got better, so it knocked our ceiling to 3 games. We were lucky to win five. Time will prove either one of us right.

Six wins would have been OK but left questions unanswered. Seven wins would have been a strong positive statement. Five wins... was subpar for this team. It does not mean Jones will not succeed or can't coach. That question is still open. He has at least two more seasons to answer it. Probably 3 because of the relationships he's developed.

If it becomes a habit then it will very obviously weigh into the calculation about his ability, right? We will look back and say, "Yeah, that really was an indication of their ability"... will we not?

OTOH, if they do a better job going forward and effectively develop their talent then we'll say, "It was an aberration while the team was in transition. We now know they are a great/good staff".

 

[alltimevol2331]

You really think those analogies fit? LOL

Yes. You actually CAN coach speed. You teach players to be in the right place. You teach them how to disguise alignments. You use your alignments to force O's into plays then you cover those plays. You do what Wilcox did... You do what Kiffin did... You do what Chavis did... even when they didn't have ideal rosters and "speed".

Mizzou does not have great athletes on their D with the exception of Sam. That fact showed up vs Auburn. But all season long they showed what well coached, well prepared "good" athletes can accomplish.


The Auburn game was interesting. It reminded me of Grant's march on Richmond. Lincoln had gone through one general after another who overestimated Lee's forces. They chased him and let Lee choose the battlefield every time... often to their peril. Finally, Lincoln chooses a general in Grant who realizes that Lee simply does not have an army that can beat him. So... he begins a very deliberate march on Richmond... forcing Lee to put his army in front of Grant's... ending the war.

Auburn knew that Mizzou didn't have athletes. So... they did nothing fancy. They just ran right over them. Mizzou KNEW what they were going to do. They were in or tried to get in position to stop them... they just couldn't.

Several other teams could have done similar vs Mizzou... and didn't.

OK..If you think that any coach can take what UT had this and win more than 5 games then you and anyone else can stay in dreamland. Because speed is something that can't be coached. I give the coaching staff this year a high B low A, they walked into a team that lost almost all their offensive skill players (not that Bray was that good either) a team that honestly is not very good from top to bottom. Any of the 90's teams would drill this team. Until a lot of change happens it will not get any better, hopefully this in-coming class will develop and that will lead to more top classes for Jones and Co.

 

[alltimevol2331]

Oh also another point. If the SEC East had not been killed with injuries this season. Mizzou would not be close to winning the East either.

 

[alltimevol2331]

Seven wins?? Ok before the season began I had them winning easily over Peay, W. Kentucky and S. Alabama along with a Kentucky win. 4 wins. Being blown out by Bama and Ducks. Losing to Florida, Georgia, South Carolina and a close to one Vandy. That is 4 and 6. I had them winning one and losing one to Auburn and Mizzou. Puts their record at 5-7. With some luck they could won both AU/MZ or Vandy could have had them 8-4. That would have been a miracle season and Jones would be praised but very unrealistic.

 

[Sandvol]

OK..If you think that any coach can take what UT had this and win more than 5 games then you and anyone else can stay in dreamland. Because speed is something that can't be coached. I give the coaching staff this year a high B low A, they walked into a team that lost almost all their offensive skill players (not that Bray was that good either) a team that honestly is not very good from top to bottom. Any of the 90's teams would drill this team. Until a lot of change happens it will not get any better, hopefully this in-coming class will develop and that will lead to more top classes for Jones and Co.

That cliché "you can't coach speed" really annoys me when I hear it. When Franklin arrived at Vanderbilt did he have a team full of speed? They had two straight 2-10 seasons before his arrival. You wouldn't describe them as a team full of speed. When he arrives they immediately go to a bowl the first year. Where did all that speed come from? Then 9-4 the next year? If speed really is the answer it should take 3-4 years before he could achieve those kind of results.

 

[Spartacavolus]

That cliché "you can't coach speed" really annoys me when I hear it. When Franklin arrived at Vanderbilt did he have a team full of speed? They had two straight 2-10 seasons before his arrival. You wouldn't describe them as a team full of speed. When he arrives they immediately go to a bowl the first year. Where did all that speed come from? Then 9-4 the next year? If speed really is the answer it should take 3-4 years before he could achieve those kind of results.

are people saying we are slower than Vandy? Those were two similar teams in talent on the field and the game was decided by a play or two. Against Ore, bama, mizzou and aub, we have a distinct speed disadvantage.

 

[Sandvol]

I think Strong would have been a good choice but L'ville had decided to match UT to keep him. He also has the ACC green pastures laid out in front of him now. Do you think his chances of fame and fortune are better in the ACC or SEC with a program in the shape that UT's in? It is a pretty easy calculation for him.


Quote:
The only thing he's done is cut people in the department which any moron can do that.

Disagree. It takes considerable talent to know who to cut and who not to cut. Those decisions will also factor heavily into his future at UT.

Don't worry. He won't escape and won't have an excessively long rope either.

Two points: First, I think Strong wants to be an SEC coach. I don't think he really wants to hide at Louisville. The right AD would have "sold" UT to him. Second, it does take considerable talent to know who to cut but you're assuming he made the right cuts. From some of the articles I read in the paper it appears he's got a big ego and seems to be on a power trip. The letter or email he wrote to the employee where he called her insubordinate with regards to her protective behavior towards Pat Summit seemed so childish to me. I understand he's the boss but he can't understand why a longtime women's athletic department employee might show a little loyalty towards Pat Summit? He could have handled that so much better. But he gets miffed and has to show her who's boss. Come on. What's he really done?

 

[mscc1998]

He inherited a damn mess! No one wants to look at that.
Remember, several players defected after Dooley left and there just was not the atheletes to carry the well this time.
He will be under pressure next year to spin off at least an upper-tier bowl next year if not (a former BCS ) layer bowl within a year or two.
The fan base will expect no less than 10 wins next year and they have Auburn as an example to point too.
This year is not a fair measuring stick. Next year will.

 

[KBVol]

He inherited a damn mess! No one wants to look at that.
Remember, several players defected after Dooley left and there just was not the atheletes to carry the well this time.
He will be under pressure next year to spin off at least an upper-tier bowl next year if not (a former BCS ) layer bowl within a year or two.
The fan base will expect no less than 10 wins next year and they have Auburn as an example to point too.
This year is not a fair measuring stick. Next year will.

Nobody expects 10 wins next season. Significant improvement, no more non competitive blowouts, 7-8 wins and a bowl game IMHO.

 

[Burger]

Come on. You've been here a long time. You are MUCH better than this non-sense. You KNOW... if you've read a small fraction of my posts that I am NOT making a final judgment.

I am judging the staff's performance in this ONE season. It wasn't good. Sorry if I cannot call something bad, good... but I can't.

If you want to parse his previous experience and discuss its relevance to the SEC... we can do that. The only thing on this list that matters one iota in the discusion of his performance in THIS season is that one big win. And that it is countered by several poor performances.



Six wins would have been OK but left questions unanswered. Seven wins would have been a strong positive statement. Five wins... was subpar for this team. It does not mean Jones will not succeed or can't coach. That question is still open. He has at least two more seasons to answer it. Probably 3 because of the relationships he's developed.

If it becomes a habit then it will very obviously weigh into the calculation about his ability, right? We will look back and say, "Yeah, that really was an indication of their ability"... will we not?

OTOH, if they do a better job going forward and effectively develop their talent then we'll say, "It was an aberration while the team was in transition. We now know they are a great/good staff".

I know. I actually don't blame the skeptics. Neither you or I have a crystal ball. We are basically guessing in regards what will happen in the future. We will either get better or get worse. The chances are tilted towards us getting better, but who knows? Keep in mind that these things take time. Nothing happens with a magic wand like people want to believe.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

I am answering for what I see on the field. His staff had very little to work with. You can't judge a first year coach when he walks into the toughest conference in football with a team that is nowhere close to competing.

So how'd he beat SC and take Ga within a play or two of a victory for the Volunteers?

 

[TNnative]

I say yes, as to a "good" job. Not excellent, but good. You have to compare where the Vols were in the spring game, which was as terrible as it can get. The loss to Vanderbilt was the low point, because I will contend that the Vols should have won that game. However, I conclude good because of how the team was managed throughout the season.

Team #118 should be more revealing in the evaluation of Jones and staff. They will have had more time to install the system, and stock with players that can get their heads around it and part with ones that don't. The development of those remaining will tell the tale.

 

[onevol74]

So how'd he beat SC and take Ga within a play or two of a victory for the Volunteers?

He, himself, actually lost the UGA game. He wasted the last 2 minutes of the first half when he could have kicked a FG and he killed our first drive of the second half when we received the ball.

He did a great job on the USC game.

He is a great program builder and recruiter but a very average on the field coach. But that may be his coordinators which remains his responsibility.

 

[sjt18]

He, himself, actually lost the UGA game. He wasted the last 2 minutes of the first half when he could have kicked a FG and he killed our first drive of the second half when we received the ball.

He did a great job on the USC game.

He is a great program builder and recruiter but a very average on the field coach. But that may be his coordinators which remains his responsibility.

I disagree. At the point that game was played, UGA had a significantly better roster. That was probably Jones' best coaching effort of the year. USCe had many of the same roster and depth issues that UT had. USCe played a the weakest SEC schedule of any team in the East. Instead of Bama and Auburn, they got MSU and Arkansas. UCF is good but I would trade USCe's OOC schedule for UT's every day.

USCe won 10 games vs that schedule. I could see UT winning 8 against that schedule and maybe as many as 10 with a few bounces.

 

[Advol]

Good Try! :hi:

 

[BigTCountry]

Kiffin inherited some studs. I believe 3 of his starting OL's were drafted... the other two were the 265 lb Sullins brothers. He had Big Dan and Berry on D but they also had depth issues. Crompton became serviceable after melting down the year before. Hardesty had what is to this day his one good season.

You really cannot compare to last year. Last year was a team that should have won 10 and won 5. The coach knew he was done and basically quit while going through the motions. The players weren't really a "team" in any real form except they wore the same uniform. There was no heart, character, or leadership from players or coaches. The great players on the team were playing for nothing more or less than their draft status. And the cherry on top? Sunseri was easily the most incompetent coordinator I have personally witnessed.

The comparison that can be made with some legitimacy is Dooley's "year zero" and Jones' year one. Dooley accomplished more. That does not mean that Jones is doomed to failure or isn't a better coach. You don't have to look far to document where a bad coach with a similar situation to a good coach managed to win a game or two more. But under very similar circumstances, Dooley had a better year in his first year. That is why I have doubts that have not been satisfied. Even if you could argue that he equaled Dooley... would that really be much comfort?

Dooley's career at UT ended in reality the day Hunter came down wrong and tore his ACL. Everything after was just necessary paperwork.

I personally hope that after a year of their "standard" of off-season conditioning and development... they will surprise someone early next fall and make an impressive showing. I would honestly take 6 wins as a good sign.

Hopefully that game will be OU. It is only about a 5-6 hour drive from me so I am hoping to go.

Kiffin did have some studs, I agree. I said that earlier with scarcasm that you may not have caught. and last year we were accumulating some good players and developing athletes, but a couple of them didnt have the intanglibles obviously and had lost sight of winning and gave up. Each time our program loses a coaching staff its easy to see that our program downgrades in talent, recruiting, etc. moving in the wrong direction. I cant say it enough but when the recruits saw these inconsistent changes they ran the other way. That left a very few talented players, and its starting to show on the field the further we get from Fulmers last days.


Just like the guy above^^^^ if you didnt recruit top notch speed, and size, and instinct dont exprect to see it on the playing field. We have fell consistently since the year fulmer left in recruiting and have been recruiting more and more 3 stars and lesser. You arent going to/ and cant coach speed and size and you cant really teach instinct.. You can however improve these in very small incremements. We were beat in 7 games this year and I guarantee you this had alot to do with it. Let us have 3 or 4 top 5 recruiting years and things will start to look better.


Also, we clearly need a coach to stick around and love the program for awhile. Dont underestimate what impact that will have on our players. Sure Jones needs to coach better on the field, and he will when he has more capable players to play in the SEC. Until then expect subpar called plays to be performed by subpar athletes that hopefully have a big enough heart to overcome. You cant expect coaches to win against SEC teams by making the perfect play calls all game. Sometimes you make the wrong call, it just shows more when your overall athletism is not very high.



With that being said, I hope CBJ can turn things around. 100% in his favor. Chalk this year up and look forward to next year. GO VOLS

 

[HARTUPM]

Needs improvement C-

I would rate that as an OK not good.

I think it was a "yes" or "no" queston/poll :good!:

 

[BigTCountry]

are people saying we are slower than Vandy? Those were two similar teams in talent on the field and the game was decided by a play or two. Against Ore, bama, mizzou and aub, we have a distinct speed disadvantage.

who said that it was only speed franklin brought to the table? and no, 4.3 40' speed is not taught

 

[BigTCountry]

So how'd he beat SC and take Ga within a play or two of a victory for the Volunteers?

with a UT team that was undertalented, underspeed that didnt want to be 4-8 this season vs an avg and injured SC and GA team. Its easy. sure it happens sometimes, but when your always physically the underdog along with undertalented. :ermm: