Did Butch Jones do a good job coaching this season?

[sjt18]

BTW, are you willing to go on record right now and consistently say that the recruiting site gurus know no more than a typical football fan and that the recruiting services are off more than not?
.

Bump this to sandovol.

 

[Sandvol]

Bump this to sandovol.

Yes. The NFL is littered with 2 star, 1 star, and no star recruits. They are from revered institutions like Alcorn State, McNeese State, Jacksonville State, Northern Illinois, etc. etc. The average fan could go to work for a recruiting site and do just as well.

Look at Cameron Sutton for instance. He was a consensus 3 star recruit. Probably the best freshman cornerback in the SEC. Easily a 4 or 5 star.

 

[Sandvol]

No. Definitions are important. Development and talent are distinct things. Even then... Vandy should have never beaten UT this year. Especially not in game 11 after 16 weeks under the coaches plus the spring.

Size, speed, quickness, power, intelligence, etc. Natural attributes applied to football.

Another good measure is what the NFL thinks of them and NFL draft analysts. Vandy may have one draftee coming out this year. According to a guy published in the "Nooga" today, UT has between 6-10 that could be drafted. That's a considerable difference.

Vandy is not a talented team. They should not have beaten UT. I really do not like Franklin. But he's a solid coach who outcoached Jones this year. I just hope Jones learned his lessons and doesn't make a habit of the same mistakes.


BTW, are you willing to go on record right now and consistently say that the recruiting site gurus know no more than a typical football fan and that the recruiting services are off more than not?


The one thing most of us are willing to say Jones is doing well... is based off... the opinions of those gurus and their rankings which you seem to suggest are specious.

Yes I am willing to suggest their opinions are specious. A lot of the gurus just see who the great coaches with a proven record are recruiting and then they figure he must be a good recruit so they rank him highly. It isn't because any of them have seen any film or evaluated or even know what they're looking at. I would bet you if the gurus were evaluating blindly and had no coach input and the average fans were evaluating blindly they would do about the same.

 

[#16s Dad]

I thought CBJ did what he could do with the players he had.

Not saying he was perfect like some of the HC's on VN.

Maybe 2014 will be the year the coach that makes millions coaching will break out and be as good as all these football geniuses we have working for free on VN.

 

[majorvol]

I know every game I watched ,no matter what the score was the team never quit. I haven't been able to say that in a while.

 

[sjt18]

Yes. The NFL is littered with 2 star, 1 star, and no star recruits. They are from revered institutions like Alcorn State, McNeese State, Jacksonville State, Northern Illinois, etc. etc. The average fan could go to work for a recruiting site and do just as well.

Look at Cameron Sutton for instance. He was a consensus 3 star recruit. Probably the best freshman cornerback in the SEC. Easily a 4 or 5 star.

Gotcha. Would you say Jones is doing a bad, good, or great job of recruiting? And how would you back that belief up?


Let me give my answer which answers what you say above. The recruiting ratings are generally but not specifically accurate. That means that they are right most of the time but you can't say that just because a guy gets 4* he's a better player than a 3* or 2*. Generally, guys who get 4 or 5* however are better players.

The recruiting sites miss about as many future NFL players for various reasons as they notice and glorify. Some of those reasons are marketing by players/coaches/handlers, playing at large vs small HS's, late growth spurts, limited pre-college football experience, playing on very bad hs teams, etc. HOWEVER, they are usually right about the talent of the players they notice. The 4 and 5 star prospects have a very high rate of success.

The rankings mean something... they don't mean everything.


IMO btw, Jones is doing an absolutely exceptional job of recruiting this year.

 

[sjt18]

I know every game I watched ,no matter what the score was the team never quit. I haven't been able to say that in a while.

So... why do you think Mizzou, Aub, Bama, and Oregon were over in the 1st qtr? If the players didn't quit, the coaches did a good job, and there was "some" talent (at least in the opinion of NFL draft analysts) why were those games uncompetitive blowouts?

 

[ThatVolsGuy]

he did an AWFUL job of COACHING. Hes a car salesman, in a league full of professional drivers... if you get my drift.......did i PAW or WALK my way into that pun?


so much going on here.

 

[Sandvol]

Gotcha. Would you say Jones is doing a bad, good, or great job of recruiting? And how would you back that belief up?


Let me give my answer which answers what you say above. The recruiting ratings are generally but not specifically accurate. That means that they are right most of the time but you can't say that just because a guy gets 4* he's a better player than a 3* or 2*. Generally, guys who get 4 or 5* however are better players.

The recruiting sites miss about as many future NFL players for various reasons as they notice and glorify. Some of those reasons are marketing by players/coaches/handlers, playing at large vs small HS's, late growth spurts, limited pre-college football experience, playing on very bad hs teams, etc. HOWEVER, they are usually right about the talent of the players they notice. The 4 and 5 star prospects have a very high rate of success.

The rankings mean something... they don't mean everything.


IMO btw, Jones is doing an absolutely exceptional job of recruiting this year.

I pretty much agree with everything you said there. I think Jones is doing a very good job recruiting this year. Yes, I believe they mean something but if you take for instance the top 10 classes they are pretty much interchangeable. The next 10 the same but there isn't a whole lot of difference in the number 20 class and the number 1 class. It is more how the coach develops them not just individually but as a cohesive unit. If we end up with the supposed number 2 ranked class that will be great and means we've got a solid group of recruits but that and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

So... why do you think Mizzou, Aub, Bama, and Oregon were over in the 1st qtr? If the players didn't quit, the coaches did a good job, and there was "some" talent (at least in the opinion of NFL draft analysts) why were those games uncompetitive blowouts?

This is a valid question.

I was at the Missouri game. I don't know that I would say that they quit, but they certainly played with a high degree of uncertainly and a lack of confidence. There were countless times where they seemed paralyzed by indecision.

Team 117 never seemed to have a "fall back" position. They did okay as long as they started well or at least the game stayed within a possession. But generally, they never had any answer once a team jumped on them.

It may be unfair to describe that as "quitting." But, was there a game - even a loss - where they were able to rally and close a significant gap? Not really. Georgia was the closest and even then I would not describe that game in that way.

Maybe they were under-coached, over-coached or simply poorly coached, but it seems that if they were very well coached, there would have been at least one or two examples of the team adapting to the game in real time and making a surge - even if that surge fell short.

I'm not ready to run CBJ our of town on a rail, but the new has worn off for me. I am excited about the quality of players who are willing to play for him, and I am eager to see how that changes the complexion of the team. But, he and his staff did little or nothing this season to assure me of their abilities as Xs and Os guys.

 

[wolfej]

i voted no. i would give him a D. i truly believe that a better coach and assistants may have won up to 8 games. the kids seemed to bail on him after the SC game.

Hahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha, no. Please never post again.

 

[Burger]

Pure BS. If that's the "reason" for past failures then the arrival of a positive and competent coach should have lifted the team. Instead, we saw just more of the same and maybe a little worse.

Do you remember Chrysler in the 1980's? The stock sunk so low that it was a penny stock. Chrysler had to put in New management that had to overhaul the company by cutting unprofitable divisions, reducing debt, and other things. The turn around took 3 years, and things were bleak in the first year, but then the stock went up to over 40 bucks by 4 years . The lesson is, even though you don't see tangible improvement as in sales and wins, but there is improvement that lead to eventual sales in the second year. Last year, we were Chrysler in 1982. Now let's see where we go from there.

 

[Roustabout]

I don't think Cam Sutton has proven to be all that. Only that this team was woefully inadequate at CB.

Most teams in the SEC weren't forced to start a true frosh at CB. That's why I could really care less who makes the all-freshman team.

Let's follow that logic. Tennessee has landed three of its current starting DBs on the all-freshman team. McNeil (12), Randolph (11), and Sutton (13). How were the results?

Heck, even John Propst made the 2010 all-freshman team at LB.

 

[Boca Vol]

I watched parts of the SC game earlier and that was clearly the high point of the season. UT still wasn't very good, but the team had just lost to UGA and had some fire in them. They used whatever talent they had and played well as a team.

If UT could bottle that effort and apply it to the upgrade in talent that's coming, not to mention that was the best coached game of the season, then UT will be very tough to beat in the future.

After the SC game, it went down hill fast. Bama just hammered them out of the gate and UT had no answer. Mizzou and Auburn were much better than initially advertised and the coaches and team didn't put forth their best effort in those 2 games.

If Butch and Co. can coach like they did in the SC game along with an upgrade in talent, UT should be in good hands. If they coach like they did against Vandy....well.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Do you remember Chrysler in the 1980's? The stock sunk so low that it was a penny stock. Chrysler had to put in New management that had to overhaul the company by cutting unprofitable divisions, reducing debt, and other things. The turn around took 3 years, and things were bleak in the first year, but then the stock went up to over 40 bucks by 4 years . The lesson is, even though you don't see tangible improvement as in sales and wins, but there is improvement that lead to eventual sales in the second year. Last year, we were Chrysler in 1982. Now let's see where we go from there.

many managers and companies today look for a quick spike. It doesn't matter how you get it--legit, fudging #'s, cutting corners,...--. They worry about down the road when it gets here and usually aren't even looking a month ahead. Show a quick spike, put it on your resume, and gtfo before it all sorts itself out. That's today's corporate environment.

 

[Burger]

many managers and companies today look for a quick spike. It doesn't matter how you get it--legit, fudging #'s, cutting corners,...--. They worry about down the road when it gets here and usually aren't even looking a month ahead. Show a quick spike, put it on your resume, and gtfo before it all sorts itself out. That's today's corporate environment.

Doesn't work like that in reality. Things take time to be built, and there is no way around it. I bet Ceo's are like head coaches with the hiring and firing. I bet that strategy has screwed over many companies. I bet it sorts it self out in bankruptcy court.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Doesn't work like that in reality. Things take time to be built, and there is no way around it. I bet Ceo's are like head coaches with the hiring and firing. I bet that strategy has screwed over many companies.

Nope. Seen dozens of companies in my industry come and go because management are a bunch of clowns. Things take time and not doing them correctly can kill a company down the road, if not immediately. Just saw a manager cost his company $4m contract for next year because he was cutting corners trying to force in a purchase order this year just to hit a bs quota #. They told him and his reps to gtfo when some light was shed on some parameters and verbage. They were so intent on forcing the issue for a 45k p.o., they lost the account and their business in town will be half of what it was last year. I see that **** everyday.

 

[Burger]

Nope. Seen dozens of companies in my industry come and go because management are a bunch of clowns. Things take time and not doing them correctly can kill a company down the road, if not immediately. Just saw a manager cost his company $4m contract for next year because he was cutting corners trying to force in a purchase order this year just to hit a bs quota #. They told him and his reps to gtfo when some light was shed on some parameters and verbage. They were so intent on forcing the issue for a 45k p.o., they lost the account and their business in town will be half of what it was last year. I see that **** everyday.

Cutting corners should be a sin. Customers drive sales, Why would you screw them by cutting quality? You probably see why I think coach Jones is doing just fine for now. We see companies rapidly expand themselves out of business. I see it even more as I scan annual reports.

 

[bpalmer28]

Losing to Vandy was a worse loss than beating USCe was a great win.

Absolutely not.

You can whine about the Vandy loss all you want, but they went 8-4 for the 2nd consecutive season. They have a good team. We had lost to both UF and UGA going into that game, and they had beaten both UF and UGA going into that game. Losing to them was not an upset, despite what Vegas says. The Vandy game was viewed a swing game by the majority of educated football fans, and the USCe game was viewed as a probable loss by the majority of educated football fans.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Absolutely not.

You can whine about the Vandy loss all you want, but they went 8-4 for the 2nd consecutive season. They have a good team. We had lost to both UF and UGA going into that game, and they had beaten both UF and UGA going into that game. Losing to them was not an upset, despite what Vegas says. The Vandy game was viewed a swing game by the majority of educated football fans, and the USCe game was viewed as a probable loss by the majority of educated football fans.

It isn't about who they beat before or who we lost to before. It isn't about how either team finished. It's about THAT GAME, and the way it played out.

Vandy walked in ready to give the game away. They made all the mistakes we needed them to make and played generally poorly. It was in our house. We had the crowd. We had everything to play for. Maybe VU SHOULD have beaten UT any other night, but not that night.

That game was flat out LOST by Tennessee because of ridiculously conservative coaching and generally flat and lackluster play by the team. It was - by far - the poorest performance of the year for team 117, and it came at a time when a win was highly valued.

Anyone who dismisses that loss without at least some pause and criticism of the staff - on that night at least - either has no real sense of the game or is simply not being intellectually honest with themselves.

It absolutely is the overshadowing eyesore on this year's season, IMO.

 

[sjt18]

I pretty much agree with everything you said there. I think Jones is doing a very good job recruiting this year. Yes, I believe they mean something but if you take for instance the top 10 classes they are pretty much interchangeable. The next 10 the same but there isn't a whole lot of difference in the number 20 class and the number 1 class. It is more how the coach develops them not just individually but as a cohesive unit. If we end up with the supposed number 2 ranked class that will be great and means we've got a solid group of recruits but that and a buck fifty will get you a cup of coffee.

I sort of agree. I am not sure what the range is exactly... could be 10, 8, 12, 3, or whatever. But I would say it is rolling. Let's say the range is 8. That means to me that #1 could really be #8 and vice versa. But #1 is very unlikely to be #16 whereas #8 might be.


All this of course assumes average attrition. Fulmer didn't stop getting highly rated players and classes. He lost control of the program to such an extent that too many of the best athletes busted for grades or behavior long before reaching potential.

Possibly the best thing about Jones' class is he isn't just getting talented but high risk players that other elite recruiters avoided in the past. Fulmer eventually got mostly high risk/high reward players. Most if not all of the great athletes in Kiffin's one class were like that. Dooley did better on the character end but didn't get as many great athletes.

Jones is actually competing for and getting players that Saban, Miles, Meyer, Richt, Muschamp, et al want.

 

[sjt18]

This is a valid question.

I was at the Missouri game.

Me too. I wish I could have shook your hand. I'm not the ogre in person many think I am here.

I don't know that I would say that they quit, but they certainly played with a high degree of uncertainly and a lack of confidence. There were countless times where they seemed paralyzed by indecision.

Team 117 never seemed to have a "fall back" position. They did okay as long as they started well or at least the game stayed within a possession. But generally, they never had any answer once a team jumped on them.

It may be unfair to describe that as "quitting." But, was there a game - even a loss - where they were able to rally and close a significant gap? Not really. Georgia was the closest and even then I would not describe that game in that way.

Maybe they were under-coached, over-coached or simply poorly coached, but it seems that if they were very well coached, there would have been at least one or two examples of the team adapting to the game in real time and making a surge - even if that surge fell short.

I'm not ready to run CBJ our of town on a rail, but the new has worn off for me. I am excited about the quality of players who are willing to play for him, and I am eager to see how that changes the complexion of the team. But, he and his staff did little or nothing this season to assure me of their abilities as Xs and Os guys.

All excellent points. IMHO, some of it was Jones' lack of confidence in the abilities of the players. While it wasn't an open conflict, I think it was likely something the players could sense. Setting a goal of six wins and a bowl game isn't really a very high mark. You miss it.... you go home. If you tell someone that they are average with the goals you set for them... most of the time you'll get average. I don't think it was conscious. I just think Jones didn't believe in his guys and they sensed it.

This doesn't mean he didn't love them or coach them as hard as he could. I'm not saying there was any intentional disrespect or antagonism. He just didn't deep down believe in them and they sensed it.

I am almost certain this played into the Vandy loss. I think those guys would have played much better if they had not sensed that he was trying to manage the game... to play not to lose. Keep it close and take your shot at the end was perfectly appropriate for UGA and USCe. The raw talent levels of those teams warranted it. But not Vandy. It had to be a downer that your coach didn't believe you could whip those guys man up.

 

[sjt18]

Doesn't work like that in reality. Things take time to be built, and there is no way around it. I bet Ceo's are like head coaches with the hiring and firing. I bet that strategy has screwed over many companies. I bet it sorts it self out in bankruptcy court.

Nothing in the auto industry makes a worthy example. Its an effective gov't sponsored trust to benefit investors, corporate honchos, and unions.

A real open market for auto manufacturing sans imposed unions would make cars cheaper, better, and more advanced.

Unions and gov't "oversight" have introduced all the creativity and efficiency of the federal gov't to a once private industry.

OK. Off soap box.

I turned the place I am at now around in about 3 years. The first thing we did was set a standard. We evaluated and began to change structural things the first year. Everyone had a chance to prove they wanted to be part of where we were going within that first year. In the 2nd year, we cut people. Alot of people. We saw immediate and continuing results after we began to change people.

I understand that things take time. But there are certain things that change RIGHT NOW. That includes being pretty unforgiving with the leadership. Those things and standards are non-negotiables. You fail to establish that foundation from the start... you don't get it done later.

I heard Jones talk about those things... I just didn't see the evidence I expected from his talk.

 

[Spartacavolus]

It isn't about who they beat before or who we lost to before. It isn't about how either team finished. It's about THAT GAME, and the way it played out.

Vandy walked in ready to give the game away. They made all the mistakes we needed them to make and played generally poorly. It was in our house. We had the crowd. We had everything to play for. Maybe VU SHOULD have beaten UT any other night, but not that night.

That game was flat out LOST by Tennessee because of ridiculously conservative coaching and generally flat and lackluster play by the team. It was - by far - the poorest performance of the year for team 117, and it came at a time when a win was highly valued.

Anyone who dismisses that loss without at least some pause and criticism of the staff - on that night at least - either has no real sense of the game or is simply not being intellectually honest with themselves.

It absolutely is the overshadowing eyesore on this year's season, IMO.

I see many more people dismissing a big W against a top 10 team than dismissing the terrible Vandy performance. People want the negative to outdo the positive. That could be your opinion, but it's not your choice to tell others the SC win doesn't count because of the Vandy L.

 

[Spartacavolus]

Nothing in the auto industry makes a worthy example. Its an effective gov't sponsored trust to benefit investors, corporate honchos, and unions.

A real open market for auto manufacturing sans imposed unions would make cars cheaper, better, and more advanced.

Unions and gov't "oversight" have introduced all the creativity and efficiency of the federal gov't to a once private industry.

OK. Off soap box.

I turned the place I am at now around in about 3 years. The first thing we did was set a standard. We evaluated and began to change structural things the first year. Everyone had a chance to prove they wanted to be part of where we were going within that first year. In the 2nd year, we cut people. Alot of people. We saw immediate and continuing results after we began to change people.

I understand that things take time. But there are certain things that change RIGHT NOW. That includes being pretty unforgiving with the leadership. Those things and standards are non-negotiables. You fail to establish that foundation from the start... you don't get it done later.

I heard Jones talk about those things... I just didn't see the evidence I expected from his talk.

sounds to me like you have high turnover, as I assume more people quit or are let go each year