Did Butch Jones do a good job coaching this season?

[SaintLouisVol]

I see many more people dismissing a big W against a top 10 team than dismissing the terrible Vandy performance. People want the negative to outdo the positive. That could be your opinion, but it's not your choice to tell others the SC win doesn't count because of the Vandy L.

I never said it didn't count. But, other than some sort of intangible thing, it has no real value. In the end, we were no better than the year before. Are we headed in a better direction? Perhaps, but after year one, we can only look at year one. Because of the way the season finished, that win gained us nothing. No better record. No bowl.

However, the VU lost absolutely cost us something. It did allow for a repeat of last year's record, a losing season and the loss of a bowl game. Yes, it cost no more than any other loss, but it was the game in which we were presented with the best chance to win.

I'm not negative. I'm far from a glass half empty sort of person. I have all the HOPE in the world that CBJ is at the helm and UT regains greatness. I readily admit that he has done an OVERWHELMING job in many aspects of his role as the steward of Tennessee football. I wish the guy the very best success in the world.

My only point is the actual evidence represented in the performance of the team in 2013 is as incriminating as it is encouraging. While I have all the hope I can muster, I have far less confidence.

I'm no NegaVol, but I am absolutely no Vollyanna either.

 

[jcvet33]

I don't think he got the most out of what he had. Got blew out way too many times and lost to Vandy.

 

[TheColdVolTruth]

I see many more people dismissing a big W against a top 10 team than dismissing the terrible Vandy performance. People want the negative to outdo the positive. That could be your opinion, but it's not your choice to tell others the SC win doesn't count because of the Vandy L.

This logic also applies to the many who say Butch Jones beat a top ten team, but our lack of speed/talent/depth/experience lost to vandy. I'm not saying you are claiming this, but it is sickening to me that so many want to give the coach all the credit for a great win, but exonerate him completely from the losses while throwing the players under the bus. The truth is this team won and lost as a direct result of the coaching and execution on the field.

 

[oregonvol]

I see many more people dismissing a big W against a top 10 team than dismissing the terrible Vandy performance. People want the negative to outdo the positive. That could be your opinion, but it's not your choice to tell others the SC win doesn't count because of the Vandy L.

I guess folks see what they want to see. I haven't really seen anyone dismiss the South Carolina win. I've praised it repeatedly. I have seen and argued with many many people on here in the past week who dismissed the Vanderbilt loss.

Case in point, this guy (dismissing the Vanderbilt loss is kind of his whole schtick):

Vandy has more talent and depth than UT at this point. Give the Vols credit playing them tough and having a lead late in the game.

It could have easily been another blow out. Did you really expect UT to beat Vandy???

 

[Spartacavolus]

This logic also applies to the many who say Butch Jones beat a top ten team, but our lack of speed/talent/depth/experience lost to vandy. I'm not saying you are claiming this, but it is sickening to me that so many want to give the coach all the credit for a great win, but exonerate him completely from the losses while throwing the players under the bus. The truth is this team won and lost as a direct result of the coaching and execution on the field.

Vandy was our worst game and SC our best. It happens. Pig doesn't block in the back and we win. North doesn't make that ridiculous catch against SC and we lose. It's always about a few plays and the wave of emotions goes along with them.
That said, if people can't see the team speed difference between us and Oregon, bama, Aub and mizzou, I don't know what they are watching.

 

[BigTCountry]

i voted no. i would give him a D. i truly believe that a better coach and assistants may have won up to 8 games. the kids seemed to bail on him after the SC game.

well these kids have alot of experience in bailing.

 

[sjt18]

I see many more people dismissing a big W against a top 10 team than dismissing the terrible Vandy performance. People want the negative to outdo the positive. That could be your opinion, but it's not your choice to tell others the SC win doesn't count because of the Vandy L.

I would count USCe and UGA as good performances by the team and staff. I would count USA, Bama, Oregon, Mizzou, Auburn, Vandy, and to a slightly lesser extent UF against them.

7>2

 

[sjt18]

sounds to me like you have high turnover, as I assume more people quit or are let go each year

Nope. I am now about to enter my 5th year here. We have the best team in the company, bar none, and have a low turnover rate.

Kind of took the approach Jack Welch advocated... get the right people on the bus, get the wrong people off the bus, close the door, and go.

 

[BigTCountry]

these people who want to think that his inherited situation is just an insufficient excuse? Really? Makes no sense whatsoever. I agree he should be held more accountable every year he is here from here on out, but you cant expect this coach to perform miracles. He took what he had and ran with it. And for the others who are saying coaches should never 2nd guess his players, yes he should, it happens every down. If your wide receiver is dropping passes consistently, your not going to give him the big play of the game.

Obviously his playbook was smaller too this year, he doesnt have the talent to have more than 10 plays, no ones consistent enough. Even our most consistent position in offensive production(RBs) were consistently inconsistent. New recruits=new talent level=new mentality=taking this program where CBJ wants it. He never guaranteed anyone that it would be this year that we would surprise people, but he did say its going to take alot of work and time. If you thought the sinking ship could be brought to the surface and sailing in one season, too bad and go cheer for auburn in the BCS eace2:

 

[sjt18]

these people who want to think that his inherited situation is just an insufficient excuse? Really? Makes no sense whatsoever. I agree he should be held more accountable every year he is here from here on out, but you cant expect this coach to perform miracles.

Winning the East would have been a miracle. Winning 9 would have been pretty close. Winning six... was not asking for a miracle. It was asking him to shoot par.

He took what he had and ran with it. And for the others who are saying coaches should never 2nd guess his players, yes he should, it happens every down. If your wide receiver is dropping passes consistently, your not going to give him the big play of the game.

Same goes for those who say coaches should never be second guessed.

Obviously his playbook was smaller too this year, he doesnt have the talent to have more than 10 plays, no ones consistent enough. Even our most consistent position in offensive production(RBs) were consistently inconsistent. New recruits=new talent level=new mentality=taking this program where CBJ wants it. He never guaranteed anyone that it would be this year that we would surprise people, but he did say its going to take alot of work and time. If you thought the sinking ship could be brought to the surface and sailing in one season, too bad and go cheer for auburn in the BCS eace2:

"He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else." - Benjamin Franklin

 

[SaintLouisVol]

. . . you cant expect this coach to perform miracles. . . .

No miracles required. But, it is fair to ask him to get the players he has to play as well as they are capable, and put them the best position possible to succeed.

IMO, he was able to do that at times. Other times he was not.

So, we wait until next year.

 

[BigTCountry]

I would count USCe and UGA as good performances by the team and staff. I would count USA, Bama, Oregon, Mizzou, Auburn, Vandy, and to a slightly lesser extent UF against them.

7>2

I would say this post is crap. good performances by team and staff I agree with. To say the bigs games such as Bama, Oregon, Mizzou, Auburn had anything to do with the coaching of the <1 year old coaching staff here is crazy. We were out talented and had no speed against these teams. It hard to coach well at all when your guys cant even begin to be a matchup physically against the opponent. Give them time and then after 5 seasons if their still doing horrible I'll agree with you

 

[BigTCountry]

No miracles required. But, it is fair to ask him to get the players he has to play as well as they are capable, and put them the best position possible to succeed.

IMO, he was able to do that at times. Other times he was not.

So, we wait until next year.

I agree for the most part, but theres just some games where our guys incapabilities outweigh our chances of winning before the game starts. Usually I would not be so negative, but were right above Kentucky and right below Vandy right now. I take truth over false accusations

 

[sjt18]

I would say this post is crap. good performances by team and staff I agree with. To say the bigs games such as Bama, Oregon, Mizzou, Auburn had anything to do with the coaching of the <1 year old coaching staff here is crazy.

Sorry. But no. Coaches, coach. Those games had EVERYTHING to do with coaching. Three of them were complete roster mismatches. When Kiffin faced that in 09... he took Bama and UF to the wire. When Dooley faced it in '10, he at least had UT in the Oregon and Bama games at the half. UT laid down in those losses. They played like homecoming fodder. Yes. Players bear big blame there... but so do coaches.

We were out talented and had no speed against these teams. It hard to coach well at all when your guys cant even begin to be a matchup physically against the opponent. Give them time and then after 5 seasons if their still doing horrible I'll agree with you

That's what separates great coaching from average or bad coaching. Getting more out of a team than the sum of its talent.

 

[ETNVol]

If he wasn't doing so well in recruiting, those %s would be reversed.

He's knocking it out of the park in recruiting, but he and his staff did a poor job this year. Anyone who says otherwise is just answering from their Vol homer heart.

 

[SaintLouisVol]

. . . theres just some games where our guys incapabilities outweigh our chances of winning before the game starts . . .

Yes, but not seven of them. Maybe four.

 

[BigTCountry]

Sorry. But no. Coaches, coach. Those games had EVERYTHING to do with coaching. Three of them were complete roster mismatches. When Kiffin faced that in 09... he took Bama and UF to the wire. When Dooley faced it in '10, he at least had UT in the Oregon and Bama games at the half. UT laid down in those losses. They played like homecoming fodder. Yes. Players bear big blame there... but so do coaches.

That's what separates great coaching from average or bad coaching. Getting more out of a team than the sum of its talent.

Good points! :good!: but Sure maybe Dooley did have us in the game for the 1st half of the game, but the results were the same. I didnt know Kiffin inherited a bad Tennessee team as Jones did. Dont deny the fact. Im not saying we shouldnt start winning more games here and there but last year were killed by Vandy and almost beat by Troy?. So in the end its a process that started at ground zero. He took a first step and beat a top 25 team. At least we competed with Vandy unlike last year. and hes recruiting well.

 

[BigTCountry]

Yes, but not seven of them. Maybe four.

Im not sure if you've noticed but UT's old standards are not what they are now and have been since the coaching changes started. Unless your unrealistic a 7-5 year would be absolutely great. Im not happy with what we are capable of but check out our results of our big games. If im not mistaken preseason no one thought Florida was going to have a down year so that didnt really look like a win nor does it ever. I think everyone would agree when comparing the schedule to 2012 the most beatable teams that Dooley didnt beat were SC, GA, and Vandy. Jones gave our players a chance to exectute a win in each of those games. and they both cames down to two downs. If Pig doesnt fumble and our defense stops vandy on 4th and 1 it makes it very possible to pull those wins out. Everyone would be praising CBJ for a 7-5 season and acting like were going to win the SEC next year.

Sat, Sep 14 @ Oregon L 14 - 59 Final
Sat, Sep 21 @ Florida L 17 - 31 Final
Sat, Oct 5 vs. Georgia L 34 - 31 Final
Sat, Oct 19 vs. South Carolina W 21 - 23 Final
Sat, Oct 26 @ Alabama L 10 - 45 Final
Sat, Nov 2 @ Missouri L 3 - 31 Final
Sat, Nov 9 vs. Auburn L 55 - 23 Final
Sat, Nov 23 vs. Vanderbilt L 14 - 10 Final

 

[SaintLouisVol]

Im not sure if you've noticed but UT's old standards are not what they are now and have been since the coaching changes started. Unless your unrealistic a 7-5 year would be absolutely great. Im not happy with what we are capable of but check out our results of our big games. If im not mistaken preseason no one thought Florida was going to have a down year so that didnt really look like a win nor does it ever. I think everyone would agree when comparing the schedule to 2012 the most beatable teams the Dooley didnt beat were SC, GA, and Vandy. Jones gave our players a chance to exectute a win in each of those games. and they both cames down to two downs. If Pig doesnt fumble and our defense stops vandy on 4th and 1 it makes it very possible to pull those wins out. Everyone would be praising CBJ for a 7-5 season and acting like were going to win the SEC next year.

Sat, Sep 14 @ Oregon L 14 - 59 Final
Sat, Sep 21 @ Florida L 17 - 31 Final
Sat, Oct 5 vs. Georgia L 34 - 31 Final
Sat, Oct 19 vs. South Carolina W 21 - 23 Final
Sat, Oct 26 @ Alabama L 10 - 45 Final
Sat, Nov 2 @ Missouri L 3 - 31 Final
Sat, Nov 9 vs. Auburn L 55 - 23 Final
Sat, Nov 23 vs. Vanderbilt L 14 - 10 Final

Your point was ". . . theres just some games where our guys incapabilities outweigh our chances of winning before the game starts . . ."

I agree. I believe this year those games were Oregon, Alabama, Auburn and probably Missouri (especially in their house). It would have taken circumstances well beyond typical turns of events to have won those four.

But, they weren't even close. They actually played very poorly against Missouri by their own standards. They may have still lost, but they didn't even compete. But, for the sake of argument, I'll allow that those four were not "winnable."

That leaves them 5-3 in "winnable" games. Is that impressive? Is that the mark of high-quality coaching?

They did play well against Ga and simply lost. It could have easily gone the other way. I have no choice but to tip my hat to the 'Dogs.

But, they played well in that game and well enough to beat SC. They set that standard. That level of play would have beaten Florida going away. It would have taken far less effort than that to beat Vanderbilt even with the frosh at QB..

The team was unpredictable. The level of preparedness and intensity was very inconsistent each week. I don't know how one can't at least consider that it could be attributed to coaching.

 

[sjt18]

Good points! :good!: but Sure maybe Dooley did have us in the game for the 1st half of the game, but the results were the same. I didnt know Kiffin inherited a bad Tennessee team as Jones did. Dont deny the fact. Im not saying we shouldnt start winning more games here and there but last year were killed by Vandy and almost beat by Troy?. So in the end its a process that started at ground zero. He took a first step and beat a top 25 team. At least we competed with Vandy unlike last year. and hes recruiting well.

Kiffin inherited some studs. I believe 3 of his starting OL's were drafted... the other two were the 265 lb Sullins brothers. He had Big Dan and Berry on D but they also had depth issues. Crompton became serviceable after melting down the year before. Hardesty had what is to this day his one good season.

You really cannot compare to last year. Last year was a team that should have won 10 and won 5. The coach knew he was done and basically quit while going through the motions. The players weren't really a "team" in any real form except they wore the same uniform. There was no heart, character, or leadership from players or coaches. The great players on the team were playing for nothing more or less than their draft status. And the cherry on top? Sunseri was easily the most incompetent coordinator I have personally witnessed.

The comparison that can be made with some legitimacy is Dooley's "year zero" and Jones' year one. Dooley accomplished more. That does not mean that Jones is doomed to failure or isn't a better coach. You don't have to look far to document where a bad coach with a similar situation to a good coach managed to win a game or two more. But under very similar circumstances, Dooley had a better year in his first year. That is why I have doubts that have not been satisfied. Even if you could argue that he equaled Dooley... would that really be much comfort?

Dooley's career at UT ended in reality the day Hunter came down wrong and tore his ACL. Everything after was just necessary paperwork.

I personally hope that after a year of their "standard" of off-season conditioning and development... they will surprise someone early next fall and make an impressive showing. I would honestly take 6 wins as a good sign.

Hopefully that game will be OU. It is only about a 5-6 hour drive from me so I am hoping to go.

 

[sjt18]

Sorry. I was wrong. Two of Kiffin's OL's were drafted. The third was Douglas who made the Fr AA team then quit after Kiffin bailed.

 

[Sandvol]

Kiffin inherited some studs. I believe 3 of his starting OL's were drafted... the other two were the 265 lb Sullins brothers. He had Big Dan and Berry on D but they also had depth issues. Crompton became serviceable after melting down the year before. Hardesty had what is to this day his one good season.

You really cannot compare to last year. Last year was a team that should have won 10 and won 5. The coach knew he was done and basically quit while going through the motions. The players weren't really a "team" in any real form except they wore the same uniform. There was no heart, character, or leadership from players or coaches. The great players on the team were playing for nothing more or less than their draft status. And the cherry on top? Sunseri was easily the most incompetent coordinator I have personally witnessed.

The comparison that can be made with some legitimacy is Dooley's "year zero" and Jones' year one. Dooley accomplished more. That does not mean that Jones is doomed to failure or isn't a better coach. You don't have to look far to document where a bad coach with a similar situation to a good coach managed to win a game or two more. But under very similar circumstances, Dooley had a better year in his first year. That is why I have doubts that have not been satisfied. Even if you could argue that he equaled Dooley... would that really be much comfort?

Dooley's career at UT ended in reality the day Hunter came down wrong and tore his ACL. Everything after was just necessary paperwork.

I personally hope that after a year of their "standard" of off-season conditioning and development... they will surprise someone early next fall and make an impressive showing. I would honestly take 6 wins as a good sign.

Hopefully that game will be OU. It is only about a 5-6 hour drive from me so I am hoping to go.

Do you believe Dave Hart bares some of the responsibility for last year's fiasco? Let me explain: Dave Hart comes in as AD and doesn't give Dooley a vote of confidence. Dooley asks him to extend his assistant's contracts for stability purposes and Hart says no because they haven't earned an extension. So, most of the assistants bolt including Wilcox and then Hart has to pay higher salaries and give two and three year contracts to the new assistants, one of whom is Sunseri, who you have to wonder how much "input" Dooley had from Hart on that hire. If Dooley had been allowed to extend his assistants by at least one year it probably would have saved UT money and also we probably go at least 9-3 that year. However, the downside is we still have Dooley but Hart I believe totally mishandled that but gets a pass from everyone and then I think he bungles the coaching search. I'm not saying Butch Jones is necessarily a bad hire but he was a "fallback." And, then Hart comes out and says the same stupid line- "he was our first choice", as if anybody believes that. If we have a good athletic director then I think he gets Charlie Strong who was a better choice in my opinion. Dave Hart has not impressed me one iota. The only thing he's done is cut people in the department which any moron can do that.

 

[alltimevol2331]

Sorry. But no. Coaches, coach. Those games had EVERYTHING to do with coaching. Three of them were complete roster mismatches. When Kiffin faced that in 09... he took Bama and UF to the wire. When Dooley faced it in '10, he at least had UT in the Oregon and Bama games at the half. UT laid down in those losses. They played like homecoming fodder. Yes. Players bear big blame there... but so do coaches.

That's what separates great coaching from average or bad coaching. Getting more out of a team than the sum of its talent.

You can't coach speed, you can't race a bicycle against a nascar, you can't take a knife to a gun fight. Taking these concepts, UT fits in the least while the SEC is the other.

 

[alltimevol2331]

You guys keep bringing up Kiffin and Dooley first year. Remember that was Fulmer talent not theirs. Remember Kiffin first year the team was just two years removed from the SEC Championship game. Since that time the talent has hit rock bottom.

 

[sjt18]

Do you believe Dave Hart bares some of the responsibility for last year's fiasco? Let me explain: Dave Hart comes in as AD and doesn't give Dooley a vote of confidence. Dooley asks him to extend his assistant's contracts for stability purposes and Hart says no because they haven't earned an extension.

He was in a tough spot. He made a bad call but we're looking at it with the benefit of knowing what's happened. At the time of his decision... he was probably right... partly.

Wilcox and the D staff HAD earned it. He took a steaming pile of dung and made it respectable for two years running. He had no more talent nor depth than Jancek inherited. He allowed 25 ppg his first year and 22 ppg the 2nd. Not great but definitely respectable and progress. His results were in line with what Chavis/Monte had done the previous 3 years... with guys like Berry, McCoy, E Wilson, Mayo, Big Dan, Ayers,...

I'm a fan of that guy and Sirmon.

So, most of the assistants bolt including Wilcox and then Hart has to pay higher salaries and give two and three year contracts to the new assistants, one of whom is Sunseri, who you have to wonder how much "input" Dooley had from Hart on that hire.

I'd say quite a bit but I do believe Dooley was infatuated with doing things the Saban way.

If Dooley had been allowed to extend his assistants by at least one year it probably would have saved UT money and also we probably go at least 9-3 that year.

Agree. But think that through. It was a blessing in disguise. Dooley made a habit of ticking people off and burning bridges. So UT would have been hung for 2-5 more years with a coach that has middling ability and can't bring a program together.

We dodged a bullet with Kiffin... and then again with Dooley. I am hoping Jones is the blessing the good Lord has had in reserve for us.

I'm not saying Butch Jones is necessarily a bad hire but he was a "fallback."

He was. And Hart's fortunes rise or fall with his anyway.

And, then Hart comes out and says the same stupid line- "he was our first choice", as if anybody believes that. If we have a good athletic director then I think he gets Charlie Strong who was a better choice in my opinion. Dave Hart has not impressed me one iota.

He's a politician in a political job who bends the truth to suit him... you're surprised?

I think Strong would have been a good choice but L'ville had decided to match UT to keep him. He also has the ACC green pastures laid out in front of him now. Do you think his chances of fame and fortune are better in the ACC or SEC with a program in the shape that UT's in? It is a pretty easy calculation for him.

The only thing he's done is cut people in the department which any moron can do that.

Disagree. It takes considerable talent to know who to cut and who not to cut. Those decisions will also factor heavily into his future at UT.

Don't worry. He won't escape and won't have an excessively long rope either.