Different camera angle on Pig Fumble. MUST SEE!

[itouchedthe_bUTch]

I'm all vol but sorry boys it's a fumble. Butch still gets it

 

[Bryan1]

I'm all vol but sorry boys it's a fumble. Butch still gets it

Yeah its a fumble, after it breaks the plane of the goal line!

 

[WriterVol]

We all know it's an academic exercise, but the question isn't whether it's a fumble. It's not even whether he lost control before our after the goal line. The question is where does the video evidence clearly, indisputably show it's a fumble.

I can't tell that happened--indisputably--until after the ball crosses the plane. That's me.

 

[UT_Tix79]

Coach Butch Jones called it a fumble
Pig Howard called it a fumble
Bob Kesling called it a fumble
Both CBS analysts called it a fumble
Brent Hubbs called it a fumble
Paul Fortenberry called it a fumble
Doc, Jeff, and Heather called it a fumble
Paul Ryan called it a fumble
Rocky Goode (head of SEC officials) called it a fumble
The replay official called it a fumble
Wes Rucker called it a fumble
The 247 TN site called it a fumble
THe panel of 5 ESPN experts all called it a fumble
The replayed it on the NFl game Monday night, and they called it a fumble
They replayed it on College Football Live, and all 3 experts called it a fumble
They played it on sports talk, and all 5 analysts called it a fumble

So what you're saying, is that you see something that no one else see's, no experts that know anything about football are questioning the call, our own biased TN media aren't questioning the call, just a couple of our fans...

Seems Legit

 

[WriterVol]

Coach Butch Jones called it a fumble
Pig Howard called it a fumble
Bob Kesling called it a fumble
Both CBS analysts called it a fumble
Brent Hubbs called it a fumble
Paul Fortenberry called it a fumble
Doc, Jeff, and Heather called it a fumble
Paul Ryan called it a fumble
Rocky Goode (head of SEC officials) called it a fumble
The replay official called it a fumble
Wes Rucker called it a fumble
The 247 TN site called it a fumble
THe panel of 5 ESPN experts all called it a fumble
The replayed it on the NFl game Monday night, and they called it a fumble
They replayed it on College Football Live, and all 3 experts called it a fumble
They played it on sports talk, and all 5 analysts called it a fumble

So what you're saying, is that you see something that no one else see's, no experts that know anything about football are questioning the call, our own biased TN media aren't questioning the call, just a couple of our fans...

Seems Legit

Perhaps it's my fault, but you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. I'm not even trying to dispute the fumble. I'm trying to understand where the video indisputable shows the loss of control. At what point? And even among those 100% certain it occurred before the plane was crossed, they can't agree on the moment that it occurred, thus their indisputable evidence is disputed even among them.

This isn't me trying to say we were jobbed or any of that. It's over and done. This is academic. No reason to get upset about it, anybody.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

Perhaps it's my fault, but you don't seem to be understanding what I'm saying. I'm not even trying to dispute the fumble. I'm trying to understand where the video indisputable shows the loss of control. At what point? And even among those 100% certain it occurred before the plane was crossed, they can't agree on the moment that it occurred, thus their indisputable evidence is disputed even among them.

This isn't me trying to say we were jobbed or any of that. It's over and done. This is academic. No reason to get upset about it, anybody.

I think the point is all the above say it was indisputable that he lost the ball before the ball hit the goal line. It's irrelevant really that they can't agree on the exact moment he lost possession, because they all agree it happened before the goal line.

 

[WriterVol]

I think the point is all the above say it was indisputable that he lost the ball before the ball hit the goal line. It's irrelevant really that they can't agree on the exact moment he lost possession, because they all agree it happened before the goal line.

But then it's a subjective statement, isn't it? If there's a clear indication control is lost, wouldn't it be much more pinpoint-able? And you wouldn't have any doubt that grip is lost. Whereas, and not just to me, there still seems to be some doubt.

The purpose of replay overturns is that they be completely objective, right?

Seriously, this isn't an emotional argument for me. I'm fascinated by the point/counter-point of this debate.

 

[VolsSportsFan]

But then it's a subjective statement, isn't it? If there's a clear indication control is lost, wouldn't it be much more pinpoint-able? And you wouldn't have any doubt that grip is lost. Whereas, and not just to me, there still seems to be some doubt.

The purpose of replay overturns is that they be completely objective, right?

Seriously, this isn't an emotional argument for me. I'm fascinated by the point/counter-point of this debate.

The only thing I know to tell you is to the majority of fans here and everywhere else, it's clear it's a fumble. To get down to trying to pinpoint the moment to me is kind of a waste of time because when the majority watches the replay, over and over, it's clear it was coming out before he hit the goal line.

To me getting down to the millionths of seconds pretty much means that you could then argue catches that are clearly not catches in "real time" could suddenly be considered one because the receiver had it for a split millisecond when you broke it down frame by frame; hence why I say if we scrutinize Gafney's catch like this, then suddenly that's a catch by the way some are viewing Howard's fumble.

And not trying to be a jerk, but honestly there's no way those who are arguing it should have been a TD would be saying this if it were UGA, or Florida, or Alabama, etc. There's no way this level of scrutiny would be happened. I get why it's happening but still.

 

[majic73]

This must be the image with the elbow angle being referred to. This does not strike me as odd. One would extend one's elbow in passing hands. Again Pig appears to have a grip on the ball with his left hand. Without the rest of the things being examined including the videos this photo could easily be misinterpreted, but it is consistent with Pig switching hands, palming the trailing point, crossing the plane, then losing control.

This picture.

If you couple this with the endzone video ...you will see that Pig did not lose control until a split second before his right side hit the pylon. At which time his hand opened and the ball fell out.

When you take the endzone video, and this still together ...it is obvious that the ball was over the plain of the goal line when he lost control.

That being said , the refs and onlookers did not have all of this evidence at the time of the call. The original sideline shot creates an illusion that the ball is moving away from his hand as he entered the endzone. When you look at these new pieces of info ...it is obvious that he had the side of the ball gripped and was moving it over the goal-line . He did not lose control until a half second before he hit the pylon ..and which time over half the ball was over the line.

 

[UT_Tix79]

That's a picture of someone who thought their right hand was still on the ball. You're argueing things that the player himself is saying didnt happen. Things the coach himself are saying didnt happen.

It didn't happen that way. Yes, if you look at the view from that side it looks like he still has it, however, we know he doesn't. Because in the first view everyone with a brain knows it's coming out.

I promise you, had it not been so obvious we would join you in your crusade. And CBJ would have said "it looked like he was in to me, but replay saw it differently, we'll just move on"

But he didn't, because he can't. It was a fumble, 100% a fumble. I love your passion, but it is being totally misplaced. You're coming off looking like a fool, and the harder you argue, the more of a fool you seem.

My son is fast, and wants to think he is faster than his ole pops was in my playing days. So, he argued that his 40 yard dash was longer than my 40 yard dash because 40 yards is longer now than it was in my day. That's what he believed, and he argued it for days, it didn't matter that everyone laughed at him and told him he was wrong. He had convinced himself he was right.

You and him have a lot in common

 

[InVOLuntary]

That's a picture of someone who thought their right hand was still on the ball. You're argueing things that the player himself is saying didnt happen. Things the coach himself are saying didnt happen.

It didn't happen that way. Yes, if you look at the view from that side it looks like he still has it, however, we know he doesn't. Because in the first view everyone with a brain knows it's coming out.

I promise you, had it not been so obvious we would join you in your crusade. And CBJ would have said "it looked like he was in to me, but replay saw it differently, we'll just move on"

But he didn't, because he can't. It was a fumble, 100% a fumble. I love your passion, but it is being totally misplaced. You're coming off looking like a fool, and the harder you argue, the more of a fool you seem.

My son is fast, and wants to think he is faster than his ole pops was in my playing days. So, he argued that his 40 yard dash was longer than my 40 yard dash because 40 yards is longer now than it was in my day. That's what he believed, and he argued it for days, it didn't matter that everyone laughed at him and told him he was wrong. He had convinced himself he was right.

You and him have a lot in common

can he please just not have another opinion than yours without calling him a fool? You re not going to convince him and he's not going to convince you. For gooness sakes let's just move along. You are coming off just as foolish as him with your condecending post. We're all Vol fans so let's just let everyone have their opinions rregardless of how foolish we believe them to be.

 

[DaNuhNuh]

I was there, Neyland was so loud and the boys put up a good fight. It was a heartbreaker.

 

[BearCat204]

Still talking about this?

 

[99gator]

Calling it a fact shows how in the wrong you are. The fact is there is NO WAY to prove that the ball was not in in his left hand when the nose of the ball crossed the goal line. The fact that the the call is disputable means the TD should have stood. Had the call on the field been ruled a touch back because of a fumble it could not have been over turned either.

The call is disputable to a minority of Tennessee fans. Anyone who is not a Tennessee fan is not questioning the call. It was indisputable.

Don't pull the gator card on me either. I wish it was a touchdown and wanted Tennessee to win.

 

[BearCat204]

The call is disputable to a minority of Tennessee fans. Anyone who is not a Tennessee fan is not questioning the call. It was indisputable.

Don't pull the gator card on me either. I wish it was a touchdown and wanted Tennessee to win.

I agree, it was pretty damn clear

 

[allvol]

I also thought it was a fumble, but this shot makes me wonder. He is clearly at least touching the ball when it crossed the goal line, but he doesn't have possession IMO. Idk how you decide that, but I no longer think it was clearly a fumble as I did before.

clearly there was not enough evidence to absolutely overturn the call on the field. the replay official has to make an assumption as to when pig actually "lost" control of the ball. the photo you posted plus the other angles show that pig had the tip of the ball in his control up to a point and then almost looks like it just fall out of his hand (not thrown). conversely, if the call on the field had been a fumble, i don't think there would have been enough evidence to overturn that either. in my opinion, its not an issue if it was a fumble or not, but by rule does the replay official have enough evidence to overturn the call on the field without making some assumptions.

 

[American Pig]

The only thing I know to tell you is to the majority of fans here and everywhere else, it's clear it's a fumble. To get down to trying to pinpoint the moment to me is kind of a waste of time because when the majority watches the replay, over and over, it's clear it was coming out before he hit the goal line.

To me getting down to the millionths of seconds pretty much means that you could then argue catches that are clearly not catches in "real time" could suddenly be considered one because the receiver had it for a split millisecond when you broke it down frame by frame; hence why I say if we scrutinize Gafney's catch like this, then suddenly that's a catch by the way some are viewing Howard's fumble.

And not trying to be a jerk, but honestly there's no way those who are arguing it should have been a TD would be saying this if it were UGA, or Florida, or Alabama, etc. There's no way this level of scrutiny would be happened. I get why it's happening but still.

No, it is far from clear. In fact, your speculation that the ball is not in the control of his left hand is proven dead wrong by the many video angles. You consistently fail to provide any logical or rational basis in video evidence for why anyone should believe the ball was out prior to goal plane. You were one of the many who were duped by your initial surface impression. Instead of admitting you are wrong based on clear video evidence, you are reduced to appealing to others who were duped by surface impressions.

Now where is your evidence the ball is out. Give us the point where control is lost prior to plane. You can't. That's a fact.

 

[InVOLuntary]

The call is disputable to a minority of Tennessee fans. Anyone who is not a Tennessee fan is not questioning the call. It was indisputable.

Don't pull the gator card on me either. I wish it was a touchdown and wanted Tennessee to win.

Your opinion doesn't count... you're a Gator.

There are three positions on this:

1. There is absolute video evidence to overturn the call on the field and it was definitely a fumble before he crossed the goal line.

2. There is absolute video evidence that he had possession when he crossed the goal line thus the call should stand.

3. There is not enough video evidence to say either way so the call should have stood.

The ones claiming one or two are reaching. The reason is the video both in the angle that it was shot along with the quality can not be definitive in either way. My whole point in this post is regardless of what you believe actually happened EVERYONE is entitled to their opinion and not be ridiculed about it. It has been discussed ad nauseum (I know that's big word for the Gators on the board ). No one is going to convince the other side so let's move on.

Let the debate! Later rednecks.

 

[allvol]

We must first remember that the call by the official just a few feet away from Pig looking directly at the ball with the naked eye was a Touchdown. A replay official, making an assumption, overturned the call. This was not the intent of replay when it was added to college football.... it was added to get the right call in situations where there was a definitive mistake by the officials on the field.

 

[WriterVol]

clearly there was not enough evidence to absolutely overturn the call on the field. the replay official has to make an assumption as to when pig actually "lost" control of the ball. the photo you posted plus the other angles show that pig had the tip of the ball in his control up to a point and then almost looks like it just fall out of his hand (not thrown). conversely, if the call on the field had been a fumble, i don't think there would have been enough evidence to overturn that either. in my opinion, its not an issue if it was a fumble or not, but by rule does the replay official have enough evidence to overturn the call on the field without making some assumptions.

This is the only argument I've been trying to make.

Do I think he lost control prior to the goal line? Yes. Can I prove from the video evidence that he lost control before the goal line? No.

 

[UT_Tix79]

It was the right call man, when the player involved, the coach involved, the media that covers the team involved, and everyone except a few fans on here agree, doesn't that tell you that your point is invalid?

If it was in doubt media would be all over it, Coach Jones would have questioned the replay, EVERYONE except a few fans on here agree.

It WAS a fumble

 

[UT_Tix79]

When the entire population that has seen the play says fumble except a select few of our fans, you might be biased...

 

[WriterVol]

The only thing I know to tell you is to the majority of fans here and everywhere else, it's clear it's a fumble. To get down to trying to pinpoint the moment to me is kind of a waste of time because when the majority watches the replay, over and over, it's clear it was coming out before he hit the goal line.

To me getting down to the millionths of seconds pretty much means that you could then argue catches that are clearly not catches in "real time" could suddenly be considered one because the receiver had it for a split millisecond when you broke it down frame by frame; hence why I say if we scrutinize Gafney's catch like this, then suddenly that's a catch by the way some are viewing Howard's fumble.

And not trying to be a jerk, but honestly there's no way those who are arguing it should have been a TD would be saying this if it were UGA, or Florida, or Alabama, etc. There's no way this level of scrutiny would be happened. I get why it's happening but still.

A catch has specific criteria that a ref has to look for in order to call it a catch. A millionth of a second of control isn't enough to meet that at any level of football.

I'm not even arguing it should have been a TD. I think he's probably lost control before reaching the goal line, but I, as a replay official, wouldn't be able to say without a tiny little shred of doubt that control is lost prior to reaching the goal line. To me there's doubt.

Don't worry, emotionally and mentally for me, the play is over. The game is over. But I have to say, this has been a fun argument.

 

[InVOLuntary]

It was the right call man, when the player involved, the coach involved, the media that covers the team involved, and everyone except a few fans on here agree, doesn't that tell you that your point is invalid?

If it was in doubt media would be all over it, Coach Jones would have questioned the replay, EVERYONE except a few fans on here agree.

It WAS a fumble

This is not something that takes an expert. Everybody can look at the video, still pics and whatever they wish to form their own opinion. Just because some media, talking heads or whatever say it was a fumble doesn't make them any more qualified than Joe Shmo. The coaches and players gain nothing by disputing the call so they will keep their mouth shut even to the point of agreeing so they don't come off looking like sore losers. But we as Vol fans can come off anyway we like.

EDIT: VolsportsFan Don't even think about starting with me this morning . I know it's tempting.

 

[UT_Tix79]

You must not know Coach Jones very well, if he thought it was debatable, he would be raising Cain man...he would be sending the play to the SEC for rebuttal.

The SEC has said it was the correct call, everyone that has seen the play says it was the correct call, the player involved said what happened, and you guys aren't even using his words. You're saying he did something different than even he says happened.

Every 10 mins someone calls a sports show about the play, and get told the same thing, and they try to argue, but it was clear as day, it was a fumble