Different camera angle on Pig Fumble. MUST SEE!

#426
#426
NMVol said:
You have made some good points. I am still curious whether Pig is left handed or not. I am not sure this is determinative especially with him closing in on the sideline but it is an interesting question.

You continue to conflate what Pig actually said with your own analysis. And as quickly as the play happened I can understand Pig not having the perspective the visual evidence brings.

You have at least made an effort to address the changing of the hands. I see what happened differently and believe he consciously switched hands.

One's elbows would be extended in switching hands to prepare for a dive.
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If you understand physics even slightly, and you watch, you can see the moment when his force is reapplied from the ball into air. His right hand goes almost to his left elbow.

At that exact same time you see his left hand start to move to the right, and you see the trajectory of the base of the ball move to the right, but the top of the ball moves left. This shows someone without control trying to re-grab the ball and the ball moving away from their grasp.

Aldon is right handed, and the first thing he did when he hit the ground was look for the ball, not celebrate what may have been the winning touchdown. Because, as he said, I knew I fumbled it early, and was trying to jump on it.
 
#427
#427
UT_Tix79 said:
We have, several times. And we've used Pigs own words about what happened.

He had equal force applied via both hands on either side of the ball, when bracing for the hit, his right hand slipped off the ball and the force took his right hand almost to his left elbow. At the same time the force applied from the left hand begins to move towards where the right hand was. At this point, control is lost. You can see him trying to regain control, and the ball starts to rotate away from his left hand.

You're right in that his left hand was still on the ball, but complete control was lost when the right hand was removed.

Take a football and squeeze it with both hands equally, and then remove your right hand, you will still have your left hand on the ball, but you won't be able to control it
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This is better and much more to the point. Thank you.

I take it the picture showing his left hand fingers around the end of the football does nothing to dissuade you from your stance that control is lost once his right hand is removed? I'll assume this is the case.

I'm going to point out that many touchdowns have been scored by players reaching the ball out with one hand.

You're going to say they had better grips on the ball.

I'm going to ask at what threshold a grip is considered insufficient to prove control.

You'll probably say the grip was incidental at best, and it was well below whatever threshold there is for a controlling grip.

I'm going to ask if you're sure the grip was incidental.

You'll say, yep, and then we'll move on with our day.
 
#428
#428
WriterVol said:
This is better and much more to the point. Thank you.

I take it the picture showing his left hand fingers around the end of the football does nothing to dissuade you from your stance that control is lost once his right hand is removed? I'll assume this is the case.

I'm going to point out that many touchdowns have been scored by players reaching the ball out with one hand.

You're going to say they had better grips on the ball.

I'm going to ask at what threshold a grip is considered insufficient to prove control.

You'll probably say the grip was incidental at best, and it was well below whatever threshold there is for a controlling grip.

I'm going to ask if you're sure the grip was incidental.

You'll say, yep, and then we'll move on with our day.
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I like you WriterVol.
 
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#429
#429
You can score with just 1 hand if you're planning on just using 1 hand. Because you grip the ball differently.

If you're gripping the ball with both hands equally, and all the sudden one of your hands you were expecting to be there isn't, you can't hold it any longer. You'll still have one hand on the ball, but because that force on the opposite side is now gone, the ball goes the direction of the missing force
 
#431
#431
WriterVol said:
This is better and much more to the point. Thank you.

I take it the picture showing his left hand fingers around the end of the football does nothing to dissuade you from your stance that control is lost once his right hand is removed? I'll assume this is the case.

I'm going to point out that many touchdowns have been scored by players reaching the ball out with one hand.

You're going to say they had better grips on the ball.

I'm going to ask at what threshold a grip is considered insufficient to prove control.

You'll probably say the grip was incidental at best, and it was well below whatever threshold there is for a controlling grip.

I'm going to ask if you're sure the grip was incidental.

You'll say, yep, and then we'll move on with our day.
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You missed the point where I say that he was moving the ball to the left to move it away from the sideline and begin to guide the extension of his left hand after that hand took control of the ball, hence is right hand at his left elbow. It was a sweeping guiding gesture to extend the ball toward the goal line in his left hand. :zeitung_lesen:
 
#432
#432
And, if you truly watch the ball, you'll see it start to move to the right as soon as his right hand moves. If this were planned, there would be no such movement.

And, I'm right handed also, I've never moved something to my left hand for a better grip
 
#434
#434
UT_Tix79 said:
And, if you truly watch the ball, you'll see it start to move to the right as soon as his right hand moves. If this were planned, there would be no such movement.

And, I'm right handed also, I've never moved something to my left hand for a better grip
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Then you are doing it wrong.
 
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#435
#435
UT_Tix79 said:
If you understand physics even slightly, and you watch, you can see the moment when his force is reapplied from the ball into air. His right hand goes almost to his left elbow.

At that exact same time you see his left hand start to move to the right, and you see the trajectory of the base of the ball move to the right, but the top of the ball moves left. This shows someone without control trying to re-grab the ball and the ball moving away from their grasp.

Aldon is right handed, and the first thing he did when he hit the ground was look for the ball, not celebrate what may have been the winning touchdown. Because, as he said, I knew I fumbled it early, and was trying to jump on it.
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This is a better argument than, "everyone agrees." Thank you for typing it out even though you probably did it before. Again, I'll ask about the photo of the left handed grip, but we know where that will go.

I am curious though. I haven't been able to find any quotes from Pig. You wouldn't happen to know where those are, would you?
 
#436
#436
Take a ball and hold it between both your hands, now, remove one hand. I bet the ball falls slightly to the right and onto the floor.

Now, take a ball and hold it between both your hands, switch it to just your left hand, I bet your right hand moves away from your left hand, not towards your left elbow.

If you say either of those things happen differently when you do those, then you're wrong. Because physics says otherwise.

Seriously, you already know you're wrong, and it's ok to just bow out graciously. But if you want to continue this discourse your answer has to be better than "Nuh uhhhh, cause I say so"
 
#437
#437
AJeray4TN said:
Have they reversed the ruling yet?
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We're close, but deliberations are taking longer than expected. To make sure both sides are equally pressured, we're going to shut down The Great Smoky Mountains National Park. Stay tuned.
 
#438
#438
UT_Tix79 said:
Take a ball and hold it between both your hands, now, remove one hand. I bet the ball falls slightly to the right and onto the floor.

Now, take a ball and hold it between both your hands, switch it to just your left hand, I bet your right hand moves away from your left hand, not towards your left elbow.

If you say either of those things happen differently when you do those, then you're wrong. Because physics says otherwise.

Seriously, you already know you're wrong, and it's ok to just bow out graciously. But if you want to continue this discourse your answer has to be better than "Nuh uhhhh, cause I say so"
Click to expand...

But that's not exactly what happens. He move the ball to his left hand, begins to extend it with both hands and then to get maximum extension stretches with his left hand only. The point in you physics analysis you are missing is the fact he was guiding the ball forward toward the goal line.

Its really not a try this at home in front of the mirror kind of physics experiment, especially because a true replication requires a dive at full running speed.
 
#439
#439
UT_Tix79 said:
Take a ball and hold it between both your hands, now, remove one hand. I bet the ball falls slightly to the right and onto the floor.

Now, take a ball and hold it between both your hands, switch it to just your left hand, I bet your right hand moves away from your left hand, not towards your left elbow.

If you say either of those things happen differently when you do those, then you're wrong. Because physics says otherwise.

Seriously, you already know you're wrong, and it's ok to just bow out graciously. But if you want to continue this discourse your answer has to be better than "Nuh uhhhh, cause I say so"
Click to expand...

Kill the thread... the almighty one has spoken...
 
#440
#440
If he had complete control, when he started extending the ball with his left hand, the top apex of the football would not start moving the opposite direction.

You're fighting a losing battle my friend, we all wish he had scored, it would have been glorious. But everyone can tell from watching the video, the 100000's of replays, and all of the different camera views, it's indisputable, however, you're still fighting the good fight.

Kudos to you sir, kudos
 
#441
#441
UT_Tix79 said:
If he had complete control, when he started extending the ball with his left hand, the top apex of the football would not start moving the opposite direction.

You're fighting a losing battle my friend, we all wish he had scored, it would have been glorious. But everyone can tell from watching the video, the 100000's of replays, and all of the different camera views, it's indisputable, however, you're still fighting the good fight.

Kudos to you sir, kudos
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Depends on the attitude of his wrist.
 
#442
#442
InVOLuntary said:
Kill the thread... the almighty one has spoken...
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No, the replay official, our coach, and every person that has seen it, except about 3 of you have spoken...

But like you guys said, the coaches are too busy to focus on this stuff, so it's up to us fans to make sure it gets taken care of.

I won't reply again, and hopefully this thread will just die. But it was 100% a fumble, and no matter how much aluminum foil you put on your hat, your conspiracy theory doesn't add up.
 
#443
#443
UT_Tix79 said:
No, the replay official, our coach, and every person that has seen it, except about 3 of you have spoken...

But like you guys said, the coaches are too busy to focus on this stuff, so it's up to us fans to make sure it gets taken care of.

I won't reply again, and hopefully this thread will just die. But it was 100% a fumble, and no matter how much aluminum foil you put on your hat, your conspiracy theory doesn't add up.
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Calling someone wrong and telling them to bow out is probably the wrong strategy. Typically, it only works to solidify opposition. Just my two cents there.

But I do find plausibility in NMVol's argument. If I didn't, I probably wouldn't be here in the first place.

Your argument assumes no grip on either end of the ball. The ball doesn't fall to the right as quickly as I would think it would if he had no grip on the left hand. It follows the motion of his entire body. Inertia, maybe. But, again, there is the picture showing left-handed grip. However tenuous you want to paint that grip, it's there long enough to take a picture of it.

And your rotation argument assumes no force applied by his left hand could cause that rotation. His whole hand seems to rotate with the ball as well. Indisputably his left hand has some measure of grip on the ball. You maintain it's immaterial, and that's fine. But it is there.

Oh, and the plurality argument isn't working very well. I'm fairly certain no one's petitioning the NCAA on this one. It's a fan discussion; nothing more. But the insults certainly help your argument. Keep going with those.
 
#444
#444
UT_Tix79 said:
No, the replay official, our coach, and every person that has seen it, except about 3 of you have spoken...

But like you guys said, the coaches are too busy to focus on this stuff, so it's up to us fans to make sure it gets taken care of.

I won't reply again, and hopefully this thread will just die. But it was 100% a fumble, and no matter how much aluminum foil you put on your hat, your conspiracy theory doesn't add up.
Click to expand...


I don't have a problem with your stance, I have a problem with your condescending attitude. It is not as black and white as you make it sound. Telling poster it's ok for him to back out gracefully because he wrong is not the way to have a discussion IMO. But anyway I hope you have a great day. :hi:
 
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#445
#445
NMVol said:
The visual evidence that has been discussed here include the CBS view, the view of a local TV station and a photo that was on UTSports.com. It was a close play that happened quickly in real time. There obviously was a point where Pig lost control of the ball. There is also strong evidence that Pig had control of the ball in his left hand at the goal line.

Coach Jones and players do not have the luxury of examining these multiple views. There are diminishing returns for them in doing so. This is a fans job, that must be accomplished on an internet message board. Those who prefer to bring the ad hominem views and the social pressure are free to do so, but it does beg the question of why these fans refuse to acknowledge the obvious in the visual evidence presented.
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I'm pretty sure they do, the coaches at least.
 
#446
#446
In the end, fans who feel their team was robbed will never be convinced. Nothing is ever "irrefutable" to a homer fan. It is what it is.

If you want another great example, check out this thread: http://www.volnation.com/forum/tenn...3420-why-wasnt-cody-flagged-removing-his.html

It didn't matter how many times the rule was posted verbatim and broken down, there are those (and I'm probably about to get snarky replies from some of them) who will always be convinced that Tennessee should have gotten a rekick vs. Bama in '09.

Same logic applies here.
 
#447
#447
VolsSportsFan said:
I'm pretty sure they do, the coaches at least.
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Coaches review tape all the time and send clips to the SEC offices. It's not about changing the result several days later, but the idea is to make sure erroneous calls get corrected in the future.
 
#448
#448
bamawriter said:
In the end, fans who feel their team was robbed will never be convinced. Nothing is ever "irrefutable" to a homer fan. It is what it is.

If you want another great example, check out this thread: http://www.volnation.com/forum/tenn...3420-why-wasnt-cody-flagged-removing-his.html

It didn't matter how many times the rule was posted verbatim and broken down, there are those (and I'm probably about to get snarky replies from some of them) who will always be convinced that Tennessee should have gotten a rekick vs. Bama in '09.

Same logic applies here.
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You're using a strawman here. I'm not saying UT was robbed of anything. I just wanted to examine the minutia of the case. We've more or less done that.

This would have been a much better discussion around a table with some wings and beverages of choice. We could have pulled up charts and calculated trajectories using frictionless motion and vectors of force. The replay looping ceaselessly on YouTube. Kevin Costner echoing, "Back and to the left. Back and to the left" endlessly.

Vols fans just having a good time. But no Bama fans. Ew. :)
 
#449
#449
UT_Tix79 said:
No, the replay official, our coach, and every person that has seen it, except about 3 of you have spoken...

But like you guys said, the coaches are too busy to focus on this stuff, so it's up to us fans to make sure it gets taken care of.

I won't reply again, and hopefully this thread will just die. But it was 100% a fumble, and no matter how much aluminum foil you put on your hat, your conspiracy theory doesn't add up.
Click to expand...

I am starting to think you were the replay official :)
 
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