Different camera angle on Pig Fumble. MUST SEE!

[WriterVol]

It was the right call man, when the player involved, the coach involved, the media that covers the team involved, and everyone except a few fans on here agree, doesn't that tell you that your point is invalid?

If it was in doubt media would be all over it, Coach Jones would have questioned the replay, EVERYONE except a few fans on here agree.

It WAS a fumble

You are right, and I agree. It was a fumble. Everyone agrees. The call was changed to a fumble. The coach says it was a fumble. The player says it was a fumble. The game is over.

Sometimes the bad guy gets away because the prosecution does a poor job of proving guilt. The only argument I was trying to make is that the prosecution, the video evidence, does not eliminate all doubt. That said, the right call was likely made, but I maintain that it wasn't made without some amount of subjectivity.

 

[99gator]

You are right, and I agree. It was a fumble. Everyone agrees. The call was changed to a fumble. The coach says it was a fumble. The player says it was a fumble. The game is over.

Sometimes the bad guy gets away because the prosecution does a poor job of proving guilt. The only argument I was trying to make is that the prosecution, the video evidence, does not eliminate all doubt. That said, the right call was likely made, but I maintain that it wasn't made without some amount of subjectivity.

This is why the legal system is in trouble.

Reasonable doubt has taken on a wbole new meaning

 

[UT_Tix79]

All doubt is removed from a rational person. You can't convince 100% of people anything.

People don't think we landed on the moon
People think 9/11 was an inside job
People still think Tim Tebow will make a good NFL QB
People thought Charles Woodson deserved the Heisman over Peyton

 

[Sudden Impact]

We will be talking about this next year. Unfortunately. The thread that will not die.

 

[InVOLuntary]

All doubt is removed from a rational person. You can't convince 100% of people anything.

People don't think we landed on the moon
People think 9/11 was an inside job
People still think Tim Tebow will make a good NFL QB
People thought Charles Woodson deserved the Heisman over Peyton

The problem is the video had to prove irrefutably that it was a fumble. 100%. The video is not clear enough. It causes one to have to make an assumption. It does not clearly show the ball was out when the nose of the ball touched the line. If it had been ruled a fumble on the field, I would have said the same thing. It is simply not as black and white as some would have you to believe.

 

[WriterVol]

This is why the legal system is in trouble.

Reasonable doubt has taken on a wbole new meaning

If I'm not mistaken, reasonable doubt is not among the criteria of a replay official. But I don't disagree with your statement from a legal standpoint.

 

[bamawriter]

The problem is the video had to prove irrefutably that it was a fumble. 100%.

That is not what "irrefutable" means. 100% means something is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Irrefutable, in this instance, means the replay official determined that the ball was out prior to crossing the goal line, and it's not possible to make a coherent, convincing argument that it wasn't.

Replay officials do not need to meet the legal standard.

 

[UT_Tix79]

It does though, which is why EVERYONE except a few of our fans agree my friend.

It has to be 100% evident to the replay official, and it was. Just like it was 100% evident to anyone that had ever played football, held a football, or even heard of football, I've showed the play to random people, some of whom have not watched a single football game ever, and everyone says the same thing.

If you're arguing for something that everyone else in the world says is wrong, you should probably reEvaluate your stance.

 

[InVOLuntary]

That is not what "irrefutable" means. 100% means something is proven beyond a reasonable doubt. Irrefutable, in this instance, means the replay official determined that the ball was out prior to crossing the goal line, and it's not possible to make a coherent, convincing argument that it wasn't.

Replay officials do not need to meet the legal standard.

I know you're a Bama so I'll help you a little:

ir·ref·u·ta·ble (-rfy-t-bl, r-fy-)
adj.
Impossible to refute or disprove; incontrovertible: irrefutable arguments; irrefutable evidence of guilt

I don't know what 100% means in Bama but to everyone else I would think Irrefutable is 100%.

 

[UT_Tix79]

I know you're a Bama so I'll help you a little:

ir·ref·u·ta·ble (-rfy-t-bl, r-fy-)
adj.
Impossible to refute or disprove; incontrovertible: irrefutable arguments; irrefutable evidence of guilt

I don't know what 100% means in Bama but to everyone else I would think Irrefutable is 100%.

THe video evidence is irrefutable, however, you and a couple other fans are still trying....

 

[bamawriter]

I know you're a Bama so I'll help you a little:

ir·ref·u·ta·ble (-rfy-t-bl, r-fy-)
adj.
Impossible to refute or disprove; incontrovertible: irrefutable arguments; irrefutable evidence of guilt

I don't know what 100% means in Bama but to everyone else I would think Irrefutable is 100%.

Again, you are trying to use a legal standard when it does not apply.

IN THIS INSTANCE, it is impossible to make a coherent, convincing argument that the ball was still in Howard's possession when it crossed the goal line. For an example of someone failing to make a coherent, convincing argument please refer to your posts in this thread.

 

[WriterVol]

It does though, which is why EVERYONE except a few of our fans agree my friend.

It has to be 100% evident to the replay official, and it was. Just like it was 100% evident to anyone that had ever played football, held a football, or even heard of football, I've showed the play to random people, some of whom have not watched a single football game ever, and everyone says the same thing.

If you're arguing for something that everyone else in the world says is wrong, you should probably reEvaluate your stance.

Emotion and plurality were things I was trying to avoid in my argument. It makes for a frustrating discussion. And clearly, "everyone else in the world" doesn't care.

I've only ever tried to get someone to tell me the moment control is lost. No one seems to know, and little does it seem to matter despite my initial belief that it was the whole of the argument.

 

[NMVol]

The visual evidence that has been discussed here include the CBS view, the view of a local TV station and a photo that was on UTSports.com. It was a close play that happened quickly in real time. There obviously was a point where Pig lost control of the ball. There is also strong evidence that Pig had control of the ball in his left hand at the goal line.

Coach Jones and players do not have the luxury of examining these multiple views. There are diminishing returns for them in doing so. This is a fans job, that must be accomplished on an internet message board. Those who prefer to bring the ad hominem views and the social pressure are free to do so, but it does beg the question of why these fans refuse to acknowledge the obvious in the visual evidence presented.

 

[UT_Tix79]

You're right of course, I bet Coach Jones has not seen any of these views. He's just too busy, good thing you're on the case for him!

 

[InVOLuntary]

Again, you are trying to use a legal standard when it does not apply.

IN THIS INSTANCE, it is impossible to make a coherent, convincing argument that the ball was still in Howard's possession when it crossed the goal line. For an example of someone failing to make a coherent, convincing argument please refer to your posts in this thread.

Look, I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove he lost the ball. Produce a video showing where there is air between his hand and the ball. Good luck because it doesn't exist. Have you been kicked off the bama boards or something? No one care about your opinion here.

Edit: And you're trying to change the definition of of irrefutable and at the same time saying my argument is not coherent? Did you go to school at the Bill Clinton School of vocabulary?

 

[WriterVol]

Again, you are trying to use a legal standard when it does not apply.

IN THIS INSTANCE, it is impossible to make a coherent, convincing argument that the ball was still in Howard's possession when it crossed the goal line. For an example of someone failing to make a coherent, convincing argument please refer to your posts in this thread.

Can you make me the argument that it's out of his control?

Please remember, I'm not saying it is or isn't. I just want to hear the argument.

 

[bamawriter]

The visual evidence that has been discussed here include the CBS view, the view of a local TV station and a photo that was on UTSports.com. It was a close play that happened quickly in real time. There obviously was a point where Pig lost control of the ball. There is also strong evidence that Pig had control of the ball in his left hand at the goal line.

No, there isn't. What there is is a general denial that occurs naturally in some segment of every single fanbase when a call like this doesn't go their way. By no means is this isolated to UT fans.

 

[NMVol]

You're right of course, I bet Coach Jones has not seen any of these views. He's just too busy, good thing you're on the case for him!

See this is where you are missing the point. The arguments I am making about the visual evidence are not dependent on the opinion of others or how others view me. Instead they arise from what I perceive. How what I share is taken by others is beyond my control. However critiques that appeal to groupthink to obscure the obvious will likely draw comment.

Though I am OK with agreeing to disagree in this case.

 

[UT_Tix79]

Can you make me the argument that it's out of his control?

Please remember, I'm not saying it is or isn't. I just want to hear the argument.

We have, several times. And we've used Pigs own words about what happened.

He had equal force applied via both hands on either side of the ball, when bracing for the hit, his right hand slipped off the ball and the force took his right hand almost to his left elbow. At the same time the force applied from the left hand begins to move towards where the right hand was. At this point, control is lost. You can see him trying to regain control, and the ball starts to rotate away from his left hand.

You're right in that his left hand was still on the ball, but complete control was lost when the right hand was removed.

Take a football and squeeze it with both hands equally, and then remove your right hand, you will still have your left hand on the ball, but you won't be able to control it

 

[NMVol]

No, there isn't. What there is is a general denial that occurs naturally in some segment of every single fanbase when a call like this doesn't go their way. By no means is this isolated to UT fans.

You too refuse to comment on the points referring to the visual evidence. I do not appreciate your method. But I am sure you have a reason for your continued personal attacks.

 

[bamawriter]

Look, I don't have to prove anything. You have to prove he lost the ball. Produce a video showing where there is air between his hand and the ball. Good luck because it doesn't exist.

Question: Would it be possible to touch a ball and not possess it?

Have you been kicked off the bama boards or something? No one care about your opinion here.

Says the guy who asked for my input within the same paragraph.

 

[WriterVol]

See this is where you are missing the point. The arguments I am making about the visual evidence are not dependent on the opinion of others or how others view me. Instead they arise from what I perceive. How what I share is taken by others is beyond my control. However critiques that appeal to groupthink to obscure the obvious will likely draw comment.

Though I am OK with agreeing to disagree in this case.

I think you may be the only other person that understands what I'm trying to get out of this discussion.

 

[allvol]

Coach Jones teaches the players about moving on to the next play. He also should be teaching the players to respect the officials. What does he have to gain by arguing about this call? The outcome of the game has already been determined. I for one am glad that he as a public official has taken the high road.

However, we as fans in this forum are allowed to express our opinions freely without disrespect. The argument is not whether it was a fumble or not... but rather does the replay official have enough irrifutable evidence to overturn the call on the field... without presumption. Remember, the person with the best vantage point was the official standing just a few feet away, and he called it a TD.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Question: Would it be possible to touch a ball and not possess it?



Says the guy who asked for my input within the same paragraph.

Do you know what a rhetorical question? By the way this question is also rhetorical.

 

[NMVol]

We have, several times. And we've used Pigs own words about what happened.

He had equal force applied via both hands on either side of the ball, when bracing for the hit, his right hand slipped off the ball and the force took his right hand almost to his left elbow. At the same time the force applied from the left hand begins to move towards where the right hand was. At this point, control is lost. You can see him trying to regain control, and the ball starts to rotate away from his left hand.

You're right in that his left hand was still on the ball, but complete control was lost when the right hand was removed.

Take a football and squeeze it with both hands equally, and then remove your right hand, you will still have your left hand on the ball, but you won't be able to control it

You have made some good points. I am still curious whether Pig is left handed or not. I am not sure this is determinative especially with him closing in on the sideline but it is an interesting question.

You continue to conflate what Pig actually said with your own analysis. And as quickly as the play happened I can understand Pig not having the perspective the visual evidence brings.

You have at least made an effort to address the changing of the hands. I see what happened differently and believe he consciously switched hands.

One's elbows would be extended in switching hands to prepare for a dive.