Does anyone have an entitlement to advantage based on birth?

#51
#51
lawgator1 said:
Of course. But is it an entitlement by birth to belong whereas others are less worthy because they happened to be born elsewhere?
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If I lived in an apartment complex I would have no problem if anyone, of any race, creed or what have you applied, paid their deposit and rent and lived alongside me.........I would have a problem if someone of any race or creed just broke into an apartment and set up residence.
 
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#52
#52
lawgator1 said:
Good question. I'm not saying one is right and one is wrong. I'm asking why one is right and one is wrong. So far, I'm getting a lot of "that's the way it is" answers, which has no reasoning to it.
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Tell me you haven’t read law of nations.
 
#55
#55
lawgator1 said:
A number of threads of late about immigration. I understand if you move to another country and through hard work earn a spot in that society.

But for the vast majority of Americans there seems to be an assumption that they are entitled to some presumption that they belong, and others do not, based on the happenstance of where they were born.
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#56
#56
lawgator1 said:
Of course. But is it an entitlement by birth to belong whereas others are less worthy because they happened to be born elsewhere?
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Following our immigration laws makes them worthy. Entering our country illegally makes them unworthy because they didn't respect our laws.
 
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#57
#57
Weezer said:
Following our immigration laws makes them worthy. Entering our country illegally makes them unworthy because they didn't respect our laws.
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Ipso facto, anybody who doesn't respect a law has gotta go, right?
 
#58
#58
n_huffhines said:
Ipso facto, anybody who doesn't respect a law has gotta go, right?
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There are consequences for breaking the law. Or there should be. One of the consequences for breaking immigration laws is deportation. You shouldn't get rewarded with citizenship if you broke immigration laws.
 
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#61
#61
lawgator1 said:
A number of threads of late about immigration. I understand if you move to another country and through hard work earn a spot in that society.

But for the vast majority of Americans there seems to be an assumption that they are entitled to some presumption that they belong, and others do not, based on the happenstance of where they were born.
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Find me one exa,ple of a culture, race or tribe anywhere else on the world that doesn't draw on where they were born as part of their identity. If you can do that, then you created a valid thread for the first time in your life. But if not, then this is one of your "bag of dog s^^t lit on fire on the front porch" threads that you routinely start.
 
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#62
#62
lawgator1 said:
Of course. But is it an entitlement by birth to belong whereas others are less worthy because they happened to be born elsewhere?
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How do you think Mexico, Russia, or any country in the middle east would view you if you hopped a fence and expected them to view you the same as them?
 
#64
#64
Weezer said:
There are consequences for breaking the law. Or there should be. One of the consequences for breaking immigration laws is deportation. You shouldn't get rewarded with citizenship if you broke immigration laws.
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But you are saying breaking the law makes them unworthy because of where they were born, but other people can be worthy despite breaking the law because of where they are born....
 
#65
#65
joevol33 said:
How do you think Mexico, Russia, or any country in the middle east would view you if you hopped a fence and expected them to view you the same as them?
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FTR, we don't have to compare ourselves to other countries, and doing so is often a copout. Literally, every government on earth makes the same mistakes, and pointing to other countries when somebody is asking if our government is doing the wrong thing is a great way to justify the continuation of wrongdoing.
 
#66
#66
0nelilreb said:
You do know the Irony of living in a gated community in a red state that believes in borders and legal immigration procedures to keep our country safe , secure and not being overrun to the point that it overloads the system , while asking about feeling entitled right ? You are getting “ that’s just the way it is answers “ because there’s a reason we have secure boarders and procedures for vetting . If you are a citizen of this country , why wouldn’t you feel entitled? Why would you not hold some animosity towards people sneaking in unlawfully ? The ones that went through the process have animosity for the ones that aren’t doing it the right way . Are you entitled?
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Okay, and I get that principle, but if your citizenship versus theirs is a function purely of the geography of where you were born would you agree that it is a lesser degree of entitlement than if you moved there and worked very hard to succeed and earned the benefits of citizenship?
 
#67
#67
KB5252 said:
If I lived in an apartment complex I would have no problem if anyone, of any race, creed or what have you applied, paid their deposit and rent and lived alongside me.........I would have a problem if someone of any race or creed just broke into an apartment and set up residence.
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That is entirely different because you are not a resident of that apartment complex due to where you were born. You work hard and pay rent, so you justifiably object to someone breaking in and living there rent free.

See my post immediately above.
 
#68
#68
lawgator1 said:
Okay, and I get that principle, but if your citizenship versus theirs is a function purely of the geography of where you were born would you agree that it is a lesser degree of entitlement than if you moved there and worked very hard to succeed and earned the benefits of citizenship?
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I didn't realize there was a difference in benefits between a natural born citizen and a naturalized one???
 
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#69
#69
Gandalf said:
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^^^ This! End birthright citizenship.....
 
#70
#70
n_huffhines said:
FTR, we don't have to compare ourselves to other countries, and doing so is often a copout. Literally, every government on earth makes the same mistakes, and pointing to other countries when somebody is asking if our government is doing the wrong thing is a great way to justify the continuation of wrongdoing.
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But in fact we do have to compare. Liberals, like this thread, ask these questions to try and justify their position, and and make anybody else question theirs on rights. They want illegals to have the same right, especially voting, as a born citizen. So you, LG, someone explain what the point of the thread is if I'm wrong? So my question again, do you think other countries would be having this conversation if you jumped a fence and started demanding rights?
 
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#71
#71
hog88 said:
I didn't realize there was a difference in benefits between a natural born citizen and a naturalized one???
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And you conveniently ignore how difficult it is to become naturalized.

I'm not happy with the current system, either. I've said many times here that both the GOP and the Dems talk past one another on this issue and the politicians in my view don't want it to be solved because both like to campaign and raise money from it. Same with certain news networks.

But the fact is the assumption behind the entire thing is that person A gets the benefit of citizenship based on place of birth whereas person B is effectively denied it for the same reason.

Maybe we should make every American prove they deserve the benefits of citizenship? Have a job, contribute in some way.
 
#72
#72
joevol33 said:
But in fact we do have to compare. Liberals, like this thread, ask these questions to try and justify their position, and and make anybody else question theirs on rights. They want illegals to have the same right, especially voting, as a born citizen. So you, LG, someone explain what the point of the thread is if I'm wrong? So my question again, do you think other countries would be having this conversation if you jumped a fence and started demanding rights?
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If you think I'm trying to make a specific point about our immigration laws and our system, as broken as it is, you are completely wrong. I just think it is worth the mental exercise of thinking through what underlies it, that's all. No agenda on it.
 
#73
#73
lawgator1 said:
And you conveniently ignore how difficult it is to become naturalized.

I'm not happy with the current system, either. I've said many times here that both the GOP and the Dems talk past one another on this issue and the politicians in my view don't want it to be solved because both like to campaign and raise money from it. Same with certain news networks.

But the fact is the assumption behind the entire thing is that person A gets the benefit of citizenship based on place of birth whereas person B is effectively denied it for the same reason.

Maybe we should make every American prove they deserve the benefits of citizenship? Have a job, contribute in some way.
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I'm all for earned citizenship and it shouldn't be easy to earn. I like the Starship Troopers model myself.
 
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#74
#74
hog88 said:
I'm all for earned citizenship and it shouldn't be easy to earn. I like the Starship Troopers model myself.
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When you say "not easy" do you mean in terms of time or in terms of effort, or both?

I think its a problem and adds to our broken system that one cannot seek legal entry for many years due to the backlog. So perhaps clear that out.

Or would you support, say, anyone can enter and they can work, i.e. given some sort of temporary social security designation. They get taxed. And as long as they work and commit no serious crime for ... 5 years? ... they gain citizenship.
 
#75
#75
lawgator1 said:
When you say "not easy" do you mean in terms of time or in terms of effort, or both?

I think its a problem and adds to our broken system that one cannot seek legal entry for many years due to the backlog. So perhaps clear that out.

Or would you support, say, anyone can enter and they can work, i.e. given some sort of temporary social security designation. They get taxed. And as long as they work and commit no serious crime for ... 5 years? ... they gain citizenship.
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I think his idea - per the concept of Starship Troopers (and that is a take from the Roman concept really) - is that you may be here in the USA, may be able to work or live here but in itself does not connote citizenship.

The key to this system is that only Citizens have a vote.

The problem with open borders and a strong social safety net is that people can immigrate in and then vote themselves more goods from others who have built up value over many years.
 
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