Does anyone have an entitlement to advantage based on birth?

#76
#76
joevol33 said:
But in fact we do have to compare. Liberals, like this thread, ask these questions to try and justify their position, and and make anybody else question theirs on rights. They want illegals to have the same right, especially voting, as a born citizen. So you, LG, someone explain what the point of the thread is if I'm wrong? So my question again, do you think other countries would be having this conversation if you jumped a fence and started demanding rights?
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Why?

If your kid steals do you accept the justification that other kids steal?
 
#77
#77
lawgator1 said:
When you say "not easy" do you mean in terms of time or in terms of effort, or both?

I think its a problem and adds to our broken system that one cannot seek legal entry for many years due to the backlog. So perhaps clear that out.

Or would you support, say, anyone can enter and they can work, i.e. given some sort of temporary social security designation. They get taxed. And as long as they work and commit no serious crime for ... 5 years? ... they gain citizenship.
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No, not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying citizenship is earned by service whether you are born here or not. If you happen to be born outside of the borders of the country then you apply for entry through some type of service. Service doesn't necessarily have to be military since not everyone can qualify for that.
 
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#78
#78
Gandalf said:
I think his idea - per the concept of Starship Troopers (and that is a take from the Roman concept really) - is that you may be here in the USA, may be able to work or live here but in itself does not connote citizenship.

The key to this system is that only Citizens have a vote.

The problem with open borders and a strong social safety net is that people can immigrate in and then vote themselves more goods from others who have built up value over many years.
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Yeah, bc we're so good at voting.

But I do advocate easy access to the US and then a long probationary road to citizenship
 
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#80
#80
lawgator1 said:
And you conveniently ignore how difficult it is to become naturalized.

I'm not happy with the current system, either. I've said many times here that both the GOP and the Dems talk past one another on this issue and the politicians in my view don't want it to be solved because both like to campaign and raise money from it. Same with certain news networks.

But the fact is the assumption behind the entire thing is that person A gets the benefit of citizenship based on place of birth whereas person B is effectively denied it for the same reason.

Maybe we should make every American prove they deserve the benefits of citizenship? Have a job, contribute in some way.
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People not born here have citizenship, just not USA citizenship. Why denigrate theirs by assuming they want ours? Maybe theirs is better. If they do want ours they can apply for it.
 
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#81
#81
volinbham said:
LG gonna wanna know why you are treating them as less worthy for a long and behavior proscribed time...
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Not at all. As a practical matter I do think that a probationary period of work and no significant criminal behavior is a reasonable solution, don't you?
 
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#82
#82
lawgator1 said:
Not at all. As a practical matter I do think that a probationary period of work and no significant criminal behavior is a reasonable solution, don't you?
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Isn't that pretty much what we have now?
 
#83
#83
hog88 said:
No, not what I'm saying at all. I'm saying citizenship is earned by service whether you are born here or not. If you happen to be born outside of the borders of the country then you apply for entry through some type of service. Service doesn't necessarily have to be military since not everyone can qualify for that.
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I don't know that we want or need mercenaries more than those with skills and education which would benefit our society. We do need people who don't mind work though.
Then there's the question of what to do with those native born who refuse service. And the constitutional issue of involuntary servitude.
 
#84
#84
lawgator1 said:
Not at all. As a practical matter I do think that a probationary period of work and no significant criminal behavior is a reasonable solution, don't you?
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your premise was that someone born in another location has less worth than someone born in the destination country. if one has to wait some multi-year period and behavior correctly to gain the same worth then they are still less worthy based upon birth location. the person born in the right location still has the "entitlement".

the pathway to citizenship is a different argument than the why should someone born elsewhere have less rights at birth than a citizen. most importantly they are different in that the pathway argument still recognizes birthright citizenship and borders while the all should be born with the same rights regardless of where they go on earth essentially dissolves those concepts
 
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#85
#85
n_huffhines said:
Yeah, bc we're so good at voting.

But I do advocate easy access to the US and then a long probationary road to citizenship
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But that is just a light version of the thing you're so adament shouldn't exist. Why does anyone born in the US get automatic citizenship but somebody born 10 miles on the other side of the border has to prove themselves worthy of citizenship?
 
#86
#86
n_huffhines said:
Why?

If your kid steals do you accept the justification that other kids steal?
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Again, do you feel like someone who jumps a fence should have the same right as a natural born taxpayer? And why if yes? Answer mine, then we'll get to the kids stealing.
 
#87
#87
EasternVol said:
I don't know that we want or need mercenaries more than those with skills and education which would benefit our society. We do need people who don't mind work though.
Then there's the question of what to do with those native born who refuse service. And the constitutional issue of involuntary servitude.
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It's simple, those born here would be free to live and work just as they do now but they wouldn't be citizens. They would be legal residents with all the rights and privileges except voting. Nobody would be forced to serve, it would be a choice and you would be rewarded for it.

Granted, that is nothing but a far fetched idea that would never be implemented so I have other realistic ideas.

1. Birthright citizenship would only apply to a person born to a US citizen. Only 1 parent needs to be a citizen.
2. End dual citizenship, whether a natural born citizen or naturalized a person cannot hold citizenship in another nation.
3. Make the entry into the country and ability to gain a work visa quicker. It would have to include a BGC, including a health screening of some type, proof of ability to support oneself and/or their family like a work sponsor.
4. 7 years of residency with a stable employment history, no felony convictions and no use of any taxpayer public support before a person could apply for citizenship. 4-5 years for those with an honorable discharge from the military.
5. Refugees should be made to apply outside of the country and not after they have illegally entered.
 
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#88
#88
joevol33 said:
Again, do you feel like someone who jumps a fence should have the same right as a natural born taxpayer? And why if yes? Answer mine, then we'll get to the kids stealing.
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Why are you saying "again" when you didn't ask this question before? You asked what conversation Russia would have. I feel like I answered it by implying I don't give a **** about Russia.
 
#89
#89
SamRebel35 said:
But that is just a light version of the thing you're so adament shouldn't exist. Why does anyone born in the US get automatic citizenship but somebody born 10 miles on the other side of the border has to prove themselves worthy of citizenship?
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I believe we should have a natural right to exist wherever we want to exist, just as long as it's not on somebody else's private property.

Citizenship is a construct and I don't think we have a natural right to that.
 
#92
#92
n_huffhines said:
I believe we should have a natural right to exist wherever we want to exist, just as long as it's not on somebody else's private property.

Citizenship is a construct and I don't think we have a natural right to that.
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How do we get every other country to agree to accept walk-ins as residents? Because if we're the only state that does then we'll be more flooded than now and with all the resulting negative consequences.
 
#93
#93
EasternVol said:
How do we get every other country to agree to accept walk-ins as residents? Because if we're the only state that does then we'll be more flooded than now and with all the resulting negative consequences.
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I don't see how that could be worse than we have now. We don't even know who all is here, or if they mean to do harm or not.

As far as getting other countries to follow suite. f***'em, who cares about other countries.
 
#94
#94
Sandman 423 said:
I don't see how that could be worse than we have now. We don't even know who all is here, or if they mean to do harm or not.

As far as getting other countries to follow suite. f***'em, who cares about other countries.
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It's bad now. It could be much worse.
 
#95
#95
EasternVol said:
How do we get every other country to agree to accept walk-ins as residents? Because if we're the only state that does then we'll be more flooded than now and with all the resulting negative consequences.
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Why would people spend their life savings to get here if there is no need for more workers? The market will sort it out.

Regardless of whether or not you agree with this has nothing to do with the idea of natural rights.
 
#98
#98
n_huffhines said:
The point of what? The thing I posted. Do you determine what point I'm making?
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The meme references natural rights
Then mentions immigration

I would argue whether entry/citizenship to the US being a natural right is relevant.
 
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#100
#100
85SugarVol said:
The meme references natural rights
Then mentions immigration

I would argue whether entry/citizenship to the US being a natural right is relevant.
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You're talking to the person who made the meme, and I'm telling you that it has nothing to do with citizenship. The point is that we have a God-given right to exist where we want to exist. Government doesn't give us that right, it only takes it away.
 
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