Electric Vehicles

[NorthDallas40]

If you're in a position to write off lease payments and can stay within the mileage cap they make a lot of sense. We're like you with personal vehicles, pay cash or no more than a 36 month note and keep them for 7-10 years if not longer. Took awhile to get into that position but man I hate car notes. Highest note we ever had was a little over $600 on a 36 month loan and that bugged the shot out of me.

Yeah that’s a good point to bring up and could apply to LG. A lot of jobs have the ability to write off the lease payment then it makes complete sense.

 

[lawgator1]

I'm not banging on leases here. I think leases make a lot of sense with emerging technology like EV and hybrids. I am just saying that you're living high on the hog if you've got $10K/yr to spend on a vehicle that builds no equity

Don’t disagree but as a lawyer he probably has good coin. I’m not a fan of either leases or EVs but that’s just my own preference. If I were to ever consider an EV I’d guess a lease is about the only way I’d buy one. I tend to think they’re largely disposable vehicles at this point in time with the battery cost liability and the rate of technology advances

If you're in a position to write off lease payments and can stay within the mileage cap they make a lot of sense. We're like you with personal vehicles, pay cash or no more than a 36 month note and keep them for 7-10 years if not longer. Took awhile to get into that position but man I hate car notes. Highest note we ever had was a little over $600 on a 36 month loan and that bugged the shot out of me.

If it were a purchase as I have done in the past (and did most recently for my 2019 Honda CR-V), with me expecting to have a vehicle 4 to 6 years down the road with decent resale value, I'd agree with the points made here and simply buy it, with no or minimal financing.

The game changer for me is the rapidity of technology changes. My worry is that buying and expecting the usual equity on the back end just won't be end up being there if my 2023 Model Y gets 320 miles on a charge but a 2026 gets 450 miles on the same charge.

People will not want the 2023s.

Caveat: The 2020s get very close to this same mileage. The question is, especially with the competition coming on line, do we see advances in the relatively near future?

Now, some other folks have pointed out that I'm paying $10k a year to drive it. True. But if I bought it at $55k outright that's $10k a year for 5.5 years. And about a third of that is past factory warranty. The only upside is building equity -- which, again, assumes no major improvements in the next three years (or on the immediate horizon at the end of three years).

 

[NorthDallas40]

If it were a purchase as I have done in the past (and did most recently for my 2019 Honda CR-V), with me expecting to have a vehicle 4 to 6 years down the road with decent resale value, I'd agree with the points made here and simply buy it, with no or minimal financing.

The game changer for me is the rapidity of technology changes. My worry is that buying and expecting the usual equity on the back end just won't be end up being there if my 2023 Model Y gets 320 miles on a charge but a 2026 gets 450 miles on the same charge.

People will not want the 2023s.

Caveat: The 2020s get very close to this same mileage. The question is, especially with the competition coming on line, do we see advances in the relatively near future?

Now, some other folks have pointed out that I'm paying $10k a year to drive it. True. But if I bought it at $55k outright that's $10k a year for 5.5 years. And about a third of that is past factory warranty. The only upside is building equity -- which, again, assumes no major improvements in the next three years (or on the immediate horizon at the end of three years).

I don’t think there is going to be any serious battery advances in the next handful of years. I’ve read some articles that stated Tesla’s pivot to their current Li-ion 4680 design has most likely killed the introduction of solid state lithium designs in the near term because frankly the EV industry goes as Tesla goes on battery technology right now.

 

[Sea Ray]

Now, some other folks have pointed out that I'm paying $10k a year to drive it. True. But if I bought it at $55k outright that's $10k a year for 5.5 years. And about a third of that is past factory warranty. The only upside is building equity -- which, again, assumes no major improvements in the next three years (or on the immediate horizon at the end of three years).

As I said, the issue here isn't lease vs buying. It's $10K/yr just to drive from point A to point B. Even if you have it, that's a lot of coin to spend

 

[lawgator1]

I don’t think there is going to be any serious battery advances in the next handful of years. I’ve read some articles that stated Tesla’s pivot to their current Li-ion 4680 design has most likely killed the introduction of solid state lithium designs in the near term because frankly the EV industry goes as Tesla goes on battery technology right now.

Quick observation: Tesla in mid stream has apparently stopped putting the 4680s in the Model Y. They may still be in the Model 3s (the sedan). Not clear why.

Have spoken with a few who say they think the older version, the 2170, is getting the same result. Also some speculation they are more or less saving the 4680s for cybertrucks, which are going to pop up very soon.

Oddly, earlier this year they bragged about having made their 20 millionth 4680.

So, for whatever reason, what appeared to be the plan on those has not materialized exactly as thought.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Quick observation: Tesla in mid stream has apparently stopped putting the 4680s in the Model Y. They may still be in the Model 3s (the sedan). Not clear why.

Have spoken with a few who say they think the older version, the 2170, is getting the same result. Also some speculation they are more or less saving the 4680s for cybertrucks, which are going to pop up very soon.

Oddly, earlier this year they bragged about having made their 20 millionth 4680.

So, for whatever reason, what appeared to be the plan on those has not materialized exactly as thought.

The 4680 is their battery design going forward. That is the Austin gigafactory product. I’d guess it is just transition issues and enough availability on the 4680. And yes I believe the semi is only getting the 4680 they have to in order to get the required energy storage.

 

[UT-Rex]

@UT-Rex hey Ronald if Elon’s toy truck is so viable why is he asking the government for $100M for just nine charging stations? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

what is your problem with subsidies ? if you'd put on your thinking cap, you too might create something worthy of such investment.


$1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers.
USDA provides substantial economic support for America’s farmers and ranchers through its critical farm program payments.

USDA to Begin Issuing $1.75 Billion to Agricultural Producers Through Critical Emergency Relief Programs

WASHINGTON, Sept. 27, 2023 – The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) today announced that it will begin issuing more than $1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers. These much-needed payments are helping farming and ranching operations recover...

www.usda.gov

 

[UT-Rex]

@UT-Rex hey Ronald if Elon’s toy truck is so viable why is he asking the government for $100M for just nine charging stations? HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Maybe he's following the lead of these guys's --

Texas’s Oil and Gas Industry Is Defending Its Billions in Subsidies Against a Green Energy Push​

The state's energy business has long counted on special tax breaks and other largesse not available to others. Whether renewables or fossil fuels get more depends on how you do the math.

Texas's Oil and Gas Industry Is Defending Its Billions in Subsidies Against a Green Energy Push

The state's energy business has long counted on tax breaks and other largesse. Whether renewables or fossil fuels get more depends on how you do the math.

www.texasmonthly.com

Carbon capture, hydrogen, renewables, and greener petroleum-based plastics constitute “four pillars of what could be the new economy of Houston over the next fifteen years,” said Perlman, the head of the Houston business group, whose conservative credentials also include a stint as an appointee to the state’s Public Utilities Commission by then-governor George W. Bush. But making that pivot won’t come cheap. As his group maps paths to decarbonize a region that’s a global hub for fossil fuels, it’s doing what Texas energy players have done since the discovery of oil at Spindletop. It’s angling for more subsidies.

 

[UT-Rex]

Valid point. I have priced it out and the 36 month lease with max down represents the lowest per month cost at approx. $773 per month.

Does this "$399" not apply to your condition(s) ?

"Lease starting at $399/mo*"

Loading…

www.tesla.com

Last week, Tesla quoted a monthly payment of $419/month for the Model 3 and $499/month for the Model Y on each base model. But today we’re seeing payments of $329/month and $399/month respectively, with the same down payment ($4,500), term (36 months), and mileage (10k/yr) as the previous prices were quoted.

Oct 12 2023

Tesla slashes lease pricing on Model 3/Y, expects to lose half tax credit on 3

Hot on the heels of a price drop that makes the Model 3 the cheapest Tesla yet, Tesla has also...

electrek.co

 

[UT-Rex]

Now, some other folks have pointed out that I'm paying $10k a year to drive it. True. But if I bought it at $55k outright that's $10k a year for 5.5 years. And about a third of that is past factory warranty. The only upside is building equity -- which, again, assumes no major improvements in the next three years (or on the immediate horizon at the end of three years).

Surely you've calculated the estimated fuel $avings$ (I suspect you'll save $2000+ per year, at 10k-15k miles per year VS gasoline engie at approx 30miles per gallon).

 

[UT-Rex]

Not watching a 30 minute marketing video. But I did ask you to give me a time mark in the video where they addressed the charging requirements and I’d watch that Ronald. As I’d like to hear how they got around the 1MW charging. Did you read the wiki link about the megacharger? A liquid cooled charging cable. HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Here's some info Cavet (keep doubting every source as best you can) --

10/2/2023

"Using Tesla Megachargers along the routes, the trucks can reportedly go from 5% charged to 95% charged in only 20 to 30 minutes."

"Also worth noting is that Tesla’s “regenerative braking” technology allows the trucks to be used on “hellacious routes” such as the Donner Pass."

"“Going across Donner Pass and back from [Sacramento] to Nevada, we’re able to, on the trip back, actually zero out, in terms of state of charge improving due to regenerative braking,” Dejan Antunović, Pepsi’s electrification program manager, said in the video. “It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable.”

"... “That being said, it confirms what I said: it’s working and the technology will evolve fast enough to be viable for almost every deliveries in medium term perspective.”

PepsiCo reveals truth about Tesla’s semitruck fleet after subjecting them to ‘hellacious’ and dangerous delivery routes

“It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable."

news.yahoo.com

 

[UT-Rex]

cont'd ...


"According to the Department of Energy, even though medium- and heavy-duty trucks account for only 4% of the vehicles in the United States, they consume 25% of total highway fuel and create nearly 30% of highway carbon emissions. Stricter standards on smog-forming emissions on trucks will take effect in 2027, which could force companies to turn to electric versions such as this Tesla fleet."

 

[hog88]

what is your problem with subsidies ? if you'd put on your thinking cap, you too might create something worthy of such investment.


$1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers.
USDA provides substantial economic support for America’s farmers and ranchers through its critical farm program payments.

USDA to Begin Issuing $1.75 Billion to Agricultural Producers Through Critical Emergency Relief Programs

WASHINGTON, Sept. 27, 2023 – The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) today announced that it will begin issuing more than $1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers. These much-needed payments are helping farming and ranching operations recover...

www.usda.gov

It’s always the same whataboutism, you mouth-breathers always bring up farm subsidies trying to defend your sacred cows. Our tax dollars aren’t subsidizing farms, they are subsidizing you with the cheap food you buy in the grocery stores. Most farmers would be happy to do away with all subsidies if price controls were also ended letting agriculture be a true free market.

 

[hog88]

cont'd ...


"According to the Department of Energy, even though medium- and heavy-duty trucks account for only 4% of the vehicles in the United States, they consume 25% of total highway fuel and create nearly 30% of highway carbon emissions. Stricter standards on smog-forming emissions on trucks will take effect in 2027, which could force companies to turn to electric versions such as this Tesla fleet."

That is absolute idiocy.

 

[UT-Rex]

This fits what we've seen with our Chevy Bolt ( while factory estimated Range is 260, the RB sytem extends the Range to approximately 320-330 DAILY) --

"Also worth noting is that Tesla’s “regenerative braking” technology allows the trucks to be used on “hellacious routes” such as the Donner Pass."

"“Going across Donner Pass and back from [Sacramento] to Nevada, we’re able to, on the trip back, actually zero out, in terms of state of charge improving due to regenerative braking,” Dejan Antunović, Pepsi’s electrification program manager, said in the video. “It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable.”

 

[UT-Rex]

It’s always the same whataboutism, you mouth-breathers always bring up farm subsidies trying to defend your sacred cows. Our tax dollars aren’t subsidizing farms, they are subsidizing you with the cheap food you buy in the grocery stores. Most farmers would be happy to do away with all subsidies if price controls were also ended letting agriculture be a true free market.

oh hog-hush. that was an example of $billions for someone opposed to $100m.

I buy organic (which is generally not "cheap" and yet I don't consider it too expensive -- I'm very very happy and appreciative of our food and food providers !!), and I'm not arguing against subsidies (rather, I'm simply suggesting to the engineer that he consider the acutal actual viability of long-term EV-Semi transport).

 

[UT-Rex]

cont'd ...


"According to the Department of Energy, even though medium- and heavy-duty trucks account for only 4% of the vehicles in the United States, they consume 25% of total highway fuel and create nearly 30% of highway carbon emissions. Stricter standards on smog-forming emissions on trucks will take effect in 2027, which could force companies to turn to electric versions such as this Tesla fleet."

That is absolute idiocy.

hogwash, per these 2 sources (but, bring your own sources for comparison)


Although medium- and heavy-duty trucks make up only 7 percent of the traffic on U.S. roads, they account for more than 25 percent of transportation fuel use and significant greenhouse gas emissions.

Loading…

www.pewtrusts.org

Tractor-trailers, buses, commercial trucks, and other heavy vehicles are significant contributors in the transportation sector to energy consumption and greenhouse gas (GHG) emissions, accounting for approximately 22 percent of energy use by U.S. transportation.

Fuel consumption and emissions of medium- and heavy-duty vehicles

Inês Azevedo contributed to a new report on regulating emissions and fuel consumption of medium- and heavy-duty vehicles – a subset that contributes 22 percent of transportation energy use in the U.S.

earth.stanford.edu

 

[UT-Rex]

That is absolute idiocy.

again, provide your sources for comparison (you likely study these factoids more often than do I)

Fact #951: November 14, 2016 Medium and Heavy Trucks Account for About a Quarter of Highway Vehicle Fuel Use

Medium and heavy trucks make up about 4% of the vehicle population.

www.energy.gov

 

[NorthDallas40]

Here's some info Cavet (keep doubting every source as best you can) --

10/2/2023

"Using Tesla Megachargers along the routes, the trucks can reportedly go from 5% charged to 95% charged in only 20 to 30 minutes."

"Also worth noting is that Tesla’s “regenerative braking” technology allows the trucks to be used on “hellacious routes” such as the Donner Pass."

"“Going across Donner Pass and back from [Sacramento] to Nevada, we’re able to, on the trip back, actually zero out, in terms of state of charge improving due to regenerative braking,” Dejan Antunović, Pepsi’s electrification program manager, said in the video. “It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable.”

"... “That being said, it confirms what I said: it’s working and the technology will evolve fast enough to be viable for almost every deliveries in medium term perspective.”

PepsiCo reveals truth about Tesla’s semitruck fleet after subjecting them to ‘hellacious’ and dangerous delivery routes

“It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable."

news.yahoo.com

One MEGA Watt, Ronald. MEGA-WATT.

Once again you are oblivious on how battery EVs just move one problem to another. We better get Doc Brown to build a Mr Fusion reactor to go with each one of Elon’s charging stations.

 

[NorthDallas40]

what is your problem with subsidies ? if you'd put on your thinking cap, you too might create something worthy of such investment.


$1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers.
USDA provides substantial economic support for America’s farmers and ranchers through its critical farm program payments.

USDA to Begin Issuing $1.75 Billion to Agricultural Producers Through Critical Emergency Relief Programs

WASHINGTON, Sept. 27, 2023 – The U.S. Department of Agriculture (USDA) today announced that it will begin issuing more than $1.75 billion in emergency relief payments to eligible farmers and livestock producers. These much-needed payments are helping farming and ranching operations recover...

www.usda.gov

If the product was worth a damn it could stand on its own merits Ronald. Yes it’s just that simple.

 

[UT-Rex]

One MEGA Watt, Ronald. MEGA-WATT.

Once again you are oblivious on how battery EVs just move one problem to another. We better get Doc Brown to build a Mr Fusion reactor to go with each one of Elon’s charging stations.

Lol. Here's some additional info Cavet (including info on hydrogen-based steel production from a Swedish firm) --

 

[NorthDallas40]

Oh my. Whoever this moron is, he just failed first semester thermodynamics

Going across Donner Pass and back from [Sacramento] to Nevada, we’re able to, on the trip back, actually zero out, in terms of state of charge improving due to regenerative braking,” Dejan Antunović, Pepsi’s electrification program manager, said in the video. “It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable.”

 

[NorthDallas40]

here's some additional info Cavet --

Where is the Mr Fusion reactor to power the charger Ronald?

 

[UT-Rex]

One MEGA Watt, Ronald. MEGA-WATT.

Once again you are oblivious on how battery EVs just move one problem to another. We better get Doc Brown to build a Mr Fusion reactor to go with each one of Elon’s charging stations.

Lol again, Cavet. If I'm reading your posts correctly, you're actually doubting Elon Musk (sure he's made mistakes, but come on). Not sure what you're trying to prove here.

 

[UT-Rex]

Cavet,

again, the regenerative breaking alone will likely pay for the EV semi (I'm exaggerating, of course -- but especially with Local routes / stopping and going and stopping could likely achieve 10, 20% (?) free-energy (essentially free)).

"Also worth noting is that Tesla’s “regenerative braking” technology allows the trucks to be used on “hellacious routes” such as the Donner Pass."

"“Going across Donner Pass and back from [Sacramento] to Nevada, we’re able to, on the trip back, actually zero out, in terms of state of charge improving due to regenerative braking,” Dejan Antunović, Pepsi’s electrification program manager, said in the video. “It extends range for us in a way that is invaluable.”