Electric Vehicles

[NorthDallas40]

Wait until the gub raise it for Greta.

Lol you know it’s coming

 

[LouderVol]

Hold on, just compare your wording to the wording of other professionals:

yours: "There is power loss in recharging the battery with regenerative braking"
another's: "This electrical energy can then be fed into a charging system for the car's batteries"

"power loss" VS "energy can then be fed into the system"


"when the motor is run in the opposite direction, a properly designed motor becomes an electric generator, converting mechanical energy into electrical energy. This electrical energy can then be fed into a charging system for the car's batteries."

"The miraculous thing about regenerative braking is that it may be able to capture as much as half of that wasted energy and put it back to work. This could reduce fuel consumption by 10 to 25 percent."

How Regenerative Braking Works

Vehicles equipped with regenerative braking systems are able to recapture some of the vehicle's kinetic energy and convert it into electricity. This electricity is then used to charge the car's batteries. How is this possible?

auto.howstuffworks.com

The amount of electrical energy you generate from converting the mechanical energy will be less than the mechanical energy spent in the braking process. and that mechanical energy used to brake is also probably converted from electrical energy generated/stored in the car, so there is another loss built in.

These are not the numbers but to keep it simple. Lets say your car has to provide 100 watts of electrical energy, due to conversion that is 95 watts of mechanical energy actually used to brake the car, regenerative braking then converts some of that 95 watts back into electrical energy at some rate, lets use 10%. In this case its 10% of 95 watts, so you are "getting back" 9.5 watts after spending 100. That's girl math to say you are saving energy. you still are spending energy, you are just spending some rate less. your NET loss is down, but you are still down overall. 100% those trucks on that pass would eventually run out of energy on a downhill slope if it went on long enough.

 

[NorthDallas40]

The amount of electrical energy you generate from converting the mechanical energy will be less than the mechanical energy spent in the braking process. and that mechanical energy used to brake is also probably converted from electrical energy generated/stored in the car, so there is another loss built in.

These are not the numbers but to keep it simple. Lets say your car has to provide 100 watts of electrical energy, due to conversion that is 95 watts of mechanical energy actually used to brake the car, regenerative braking then converts some of that 95 watts back into electrical energy at some rate, lets use 10%. In this case its 10% of 95 watts, so you are "getting back" 9.5 watts after spending 100. That's girl math to say you are saving energy. you still are spending energy, you are just spending some rate less. your NET loss is down, but you are still down overall. 100% those trucks on that pass would eventually run out of energy on a downhill slope if it went on long enough.

But these $300 shoes we on sale for $150 I actually saved $150 in money!

Brilliant analogy Louder.

 

[LouderVol]

Oh you’ve done it now. We all know the uphill part was charged using unicorn farts so that energy cost doesn’t count because unicorn farts are free!

EVs do make better use since they can recapture some energy and in ICE it’s just waste heat in the brakes but yes ICE vehicles use less energy going downhill also. Shocking huh?

For me I am thinking my next car is a hybrid. Only major drawback is cost and maintenance. there is a growing EV maintenance support structure, but hybrids can be a struggle. dependability of an ICE with some of the benefits of EV.

My sister has a Hybrid Rav4 that gets 45 miles to the gallon on the highway, 40 in the city, it has regenerative braking.

 

[NorthDallas40]

For me I am thinking my next car is a hybrid. Only major drawback is cost and maintenance. there is a growing EV maintenance support structure, but hybrids can be a struggle. dependability of an ICE with some of the benefits of EV.

My sister has a Hybrid Rav4 that gets 45 miles to the gallon on the highway, 40 in the city, it has regenerative braking.

Yep of the current available technologies I think hybrids provide the best compromise. But they come with the downside of maintaining both power systems. They are the most complex design.

I still say the final solution of what is in development today are fuel cell vehicles. Same final drive of the battery EV but replaces the large battery pack with a much smaller battery pack and hydrogen fuel cell. And doesn’t require electric grid plug in. And is a true zero emissions vehicle. But hydrogen availability is holding it back currently.

 

[jp1]

For me I am thinking my next car is a hybrid. Only major drawback is cost and maintenance. there is a growing EV maintenance support structure, but hybrids can be a struggle. dependability of an ICE with some of the benefits of EV.

My sister has a Hybrid Rav4 that gets 45 miles to the gallon on the highway, 40 in the city, it has regenerative braking.

I have a Grand Highlander that gets 36-39 mpg and is larger from a space standpoint to the Armada we traded. Love the car to this point, but it's early.

 

[kiddiedoc]

Yep of the current available technologies I think hybrids provide the best compromise. But they come with the downside of maintaining both power systems. They are the most complex design.

Seems like just more stuff that can break to me. Pick one or the other.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Seems like just more stuff that can break to me. Pick one or the other.

Oh it’s more complex for sure. I already conceded that. But if a decision were forced today I think it’s hybrid as it doesn’t just move the issue to a different spot in society with the grid load. Like it or not that is a very real concern especially when people are talking about megawatt power draws to charge one freaking truck that is idiotic and not sustainable. There simply aren’t enough unicorn farts to capture. And this is why I keep pointing back to the fuel cell technology as the best fit down the road but today it isn’t viable due to hydrogen availability. So if this were a car I needed for primary transportation I’d buy a hybrid. But for the boundary conditions you have on your case (multiple vehicle home and performance aspect plus you’re an MD and can pretty much buy whatever toy you want) buy whichever tickles your fancy.

I need a tow vehicle for my toys. Id never consider a battery only EV. If forced I might consider a hybrid.

 

[hog88]

Oh it’s more complex for sure. I already conceded that. But if a decision were forced today I think it’s hybrid as it doesn’t just move the issue to a different spot in society with the grid load. Like it or not that is a very real concern especially when people are talking about megawatt power draws to charge one freaking truck that is idiotic and not sustainable. There simply aren’t enough unicorn farts to capture. And this is why I keep pointing back to the fuel cell technology as the best fit down the road but today it isn’t viable due to hydrogen availability. So if this were a car I needed for primary transportation I’d buy a hybrid. But for the boundary conditions you have on your case (multiple vehicle home and performance aspect plus you’re an MD and can pretty much buy whatever toy you want) buy whichever tickles your fancy.

I need a tow vehicle for my toys. Id never consider a battery only EV. If forced I might consider a hybrid.

EVs cannot replace our trucks. They are on jobsites powering pumps and other equipment for hours and we try to get every billable hour possible so they are working 10 to sometimes 14 hours a day. There is no battery technology that can do what we need.

Then of course on the personal side, I too need to pull my toys and don't want to stop every 100 or so miles for an hour or more to recharge. Plus finding a supercharger that a full sized pickup pulling a 40' camper can get to would be tough.

 

[Orangeburst]

EVs cannot replace our trucks. They are on jobsites powering pumps and other equipment for hours and we try to get every billable hour possible so they are working 10 to sometimes 14 hours a day. There is no battery technology that can do what we need.

Then of course on the personal side, I too need to pull my toys and don't want to stop every 100 or so miles for an hour or more to recharge. Plus finding a supercharger that a full sized pickup pulling a 40' camper can get to would be tough.

typically what brand of pumps?

 

[MG1968]

Seems like just more stuff that can break to me. Pick one or the other.

There are gen1 Prius’s still on the road with their original battery packs. Toyota hybrids aren’t bulletproof, but they’re damn close.

 

[hog88]

typically what brand of pumps?

NVE 43 series blowers. Used to run the Challenger (NVE) 887s

 

[Orangeburst]

NVE 43 series blowers. Used to run the Challenger (NVE) 887s

I thought you meant liquid or slurry pumps

 

[hog88]

I thought you meant liquid or slurry pumps

There you go thinking again.....

Used to have a 6" pump, pretty sure it was a Gorman-Rupp but it was old and it finally went kaput. We do have 2, 3 and 4 inch trash pumps of various brands.

 

[NorthDallas40]

EVs cannot replace our trucks. They are on jobsites powering pumps and other equipment for hours and we try to get every billable hour possible so they are working 10 to sometimes 14 hours a day. There is no battery technology that can do what we need.

Then of course on the personal side, I too need to pull my toys and don't want to stop every 100 or so miles for an hour or more to recharge. Plus finding a supercharger that a full sized pickup pulling a 40' camper can get to would be tough.

Completely agree. A battery only EV can never fill those heavy duty roles they simply don’t have the energy density to make onboard fuel/energy storage feasible.

I would submit a fuel cell power plant design likely could however and it’s still 100% zero emissions without the range or “refueling” downtime hit that all electrics have… once the hydrogen refill stations are deployed. Admittedly that won’t be anytime soon especially for OTR trucking.

I think it’s absolutely moronic at the level of knee jerk reaction the government is doing on pushing in recharging stations. Short term usage and ultimately a waste of money I think

 

[NorthDallas40]

There are gen1 Prius’s still on the road with their original battery packs. Toyota hybrids aren’t bulletproof, but they’re damn close.

The Prius is an ugly car and rightfully deserves all the scorn it gets. But it’s hard to argue that it isn’t the right tool to solve the problem they set out to solve.

 

[hog88]

Completely agree. A battery only EV can never fill those heavy duty roles they simply don’t have the energy density to make onboard fuel/energy storage feasible.

I would submit a fuel cell power plant design likely could however and it’s still 100% zero emissions without the range or “refueling” downtime hit that all electrics have… once the hydrogen refill stations are deployed. Admittedly that won’t be anytime soon especially for OTR trucking.

I think it’s absolutely moronic at the level of knee jerk reaction the government is doing on pushing in recharging stations. Short term usage and ultimately a waste of money I think

It's complete idiocy using our tax dollars to push only 1 alternative.

 

[NorthDallas40]

It's complete idiocy using our tax dollars to push only 1 alternative.

Again if it were really popular and viable you wouldn’t have the government

-Bribing people to buy them

-Implementing legislation to block competing ICE products in the future

-Paying for commercial refueling infrastructure which should be a capital investment by a for profit company

It’s all completely idiotic.

 

[hog88]

Again if it were really popular and viable you wouldn’t have the government

-Bribing people to buy them

-Implementing legislation to block competing ICE products in the future

-Paying for commercial refueling infrastructure which should be a capital investment by a for profit company

It’s all completely idiotic.

We're not only paying for the recharging infrastructure we're paying to block alternatives.

 

[InVOLuntary]

I saw a YouTube video about a new ammonia ICE. I think it was being developed by Honda or Toyota. Evidently it's zero emissions. I didn't know you could get ammonia to combust.

 

[hog88]

I saw a YouTube video about a new ammonia ICE. I think it was being developed by Honda or Toyota. Evidently it's zero emissions. I didn't know you could get ammonia to combust.

Ammonia nitrate with a little diesel goes boom.

 

[InVOLuntary]

Ammonia nitrate with a little diesel goes boom.

That wasn't it. The diesel wouldn't make it zero emissions either I would think.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I saw a YouTube video about a new ammonia ICE. I think it was being developed by Honda or Toyota. Evidently it's zero emissions. I didn't know you could get ammonia to combust.

I had no idea either. But with the compound formula NH3 I guess it isn’t too shocking. Hydrogen generator electrolysis runs on H2O

Ammonia as Green Fuel in Internal Combustion Engines: State-of-the-Art and Future Perspectives

Ammonia (NH3) is among the largest-volume chemicals produced and distributed in the world and is mainly known for its use as a fertilizer in the agricultural sector. In recent years, it has sparked interest in the possibility of working as a high-quality energy carrier and as a carbon-free fuel...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[hog88]

That wasn't it. The diesel wouldn't make it zero emissions either I would think.

I know, I didn't think blue font was necessary.

 

[hog88]

I had no idea either. But with the compound formula NH3 I guess it isn’t too shocking. Hydrogen generator electrolysis runs on H2O

Ammonia as Green Fuel in Internal Combustion Engines: State-of-the-Art and Future Perspectives

Ammonia (NH3) is among the largest-volume chemicals produced and distributed in the world and is mainly known for its use as a fertilizer in the agricultural sector. In recent years, it has sparked interest in the possibility of working as a high-quality energy carrier and as a carbon-free fuel...

www.frontiersin.org

If this becomes a widely used fuel the transfer process would have to be tightly controlled and spillage would have to be captured otherwise our streams, rivers and oceans will become dead zones of low dissolved oxygen. We see the effects of diesel exhaust fluid now.