Electric Vehicles

[RavinDave]

Arby’s coupon..buy one RB sandwich and get the second for same price

We got the meats!

 

[UT-Rex]

And I stand by that statement. The tax on each gallon of fuel ranges from at least $0.20 to over $0.70. Your chump change example doesn’t close the gap of the taxes per gallon of fuel. I’ve already said multiple times there is indeed a cost advantage currently however the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the government is not going to let that revenue stream dry up they will find a way to recoup those losses due to EV taking on a larger percentage of vehicles on the road over time.

Right -- likely, gov't will impose more-direct taxes (state/fed) to pay for roads.

And likely also likely, gas prices will continue to rise (or, are thinking OPEc will lower $ as more and more folk move to EV ?).

 

[NorthDallas40]

Right -- likely, gov't will impose more-direct taxes (state/fed) to pay for roads.

And likely also likely, gas prices will continue to rise (or, are thinking OPEc will lower $ as more and more folk move to EV ?).

I’m glad you finally can see my point and agree.

 

[Willy P]

Last month I paid the great state of TN my $100 annual fee for going electric. Next year it’ll be $200.

Government is going to get theirs.

 

[UT-Rex]

And I stand by that statement. The tax on each gallon of fuel ranges from at least $0.20 to over $0.70. Your chump change example doesn’t close the gap of the taxes per gallon of fuel. I’ve already said multiple times there is indeed a cost advantage currently however the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the government is not going to let that revenue stream dry up they will find a way to recoup those losses due to EV taking on a larger percentage of vehicles on the road over time.

Currently (for example): $0.025 per mile (kWh cost) VS $0.11 per mile (gas cost).

a. you seem to be saying that someone (gov't ?) is going to automatically set electric prices to equal the cost of gasoline (pre surcharge tax on each gallon)

b. if you look at 2.5 cents VS 11 cents, that's a 8.5 cent spread ( << how do you anticipate the gov't inserting the equivalent of 8.5 cents of taxes, per mile ?)

Reasonably speaking: starting from today, gas prices (+ taxes) will continue to increase as there becomes an increase total cost of EV electricity (including future tax-equivalent-surcharges added to the kWh cost).

Reasonably speaking: future might be 4.5 cents per mile (nearly a whopping 2x today's cost == 2 cents per mile taxes surcharge) VS 13-14 cents (increased fuel cost, including taxes).

 

[NorthDallas40]

Currently (for example): $0.025 per mile (kWh cost) VS $0.11 per mile (gas cost).

a. you seem to be saying that someone (gov't ?) is going to automatically set electric prices to equal the cost of gasoline (pre surcharge tax on each gallon)

b. if you look at 2.5 cents VS 11 cents, that's a 8.5 cent spread ( << how do you anticipate the gov't inserting the equivalent of 8.5 cents of taxes, per mile ?)

Reasonably speaking: starting from today, gas prices (+ taxes) will continue to increase as there becomes an increase total cost of EV electricity (including future tax-equivalent-surcharges added to the kWh cost).

Reasonably speaking: future might be 4.5 cents per mile (nearly a whopping 2x today's cost == 2 cents per mile taxes surcharge) VS 13-14 cents (increased fuel cost, including taxes).

Convince yourself however you need to. News flash. Everything increases in price. You’re counting on the cost of fuel to increase at a rate higher than electricity. Remind again what much of our baseload power generation uses for fuel? And no, I never said your (a) scenario that’s your own inference. Read on below.

ETA: again, if you want to convince yourself that the government is going to willingly just let the tax receipts from fuel surcharges dry up by all means go nuts. Make up as many scenarios in your head as you need to do that I guess. That has been my whole point in all this, those receipts are going to get paid in some fashion or another. On EVs also.

 

[UT-Rex]

That’s a great comparison to my bill as we were at $567 for 2869 kWhrs. Again here’s my shocked face that TX ERCOT can’t compete with TVA electricity generation costs. When I moved to TX in 1988 I was in sticker shock at the electric bill amount.

Convince yourself however you need to. News flash. Everything increases in price. You’re counting on the cost of fuel to increase at a rate higher than electricity. Remind again what much of our baseload power generation uses for fuel? And no, I never said your (a) scenario that’s your own inference. Read on below.

ETA: again, if you want to convince yourself that the government is going to willingly just let the tax receipts from fuel surcharges dry up by all means go nuts. Make up as many scenarios in your head as you need to do that I guess. That has been my whole point in all this, those receipts are going to get paid in some fashion or another. On EVs also.

Just because you moved to TX doesn't mean that EV $ will catch up to gasoline costs (but, they might).

Real life , current cost per mile: $0.025 (EV) vs $0.11 (gas)

As I said: Right -- likely, gov't will impose more-direct taxes (state/fed) to pay for roads.

So (by whatever example past): convince us how the gov't will convince the public to pay $0.085 PER MILE in taxes (or, 3x taxes the cost of the actual product).

And I stand by that statement. The tax on each gallon of fuel ranges from at least $0.20 to over $0.70. Your chump change example doesn’t close the gap of the taxes per gallon of fuel. I’ve already said multiple times there is indeed a cost advantage currently however the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the government is not going to let that revenue stream dry up they will find a way to recoup those losses due to EV taking on a larger percentage of vehicles on the road over time.

 

[UT-Rex]

And I stand by that statement. The tax on each gallon of fuel ranges from at least $0.20 to over $0.70. Your chump change example doesn’t close the gap of the taxes per gallon of fuel. I’ve already said multiple times there is indeed a cost advantage currently however the 800 lb gorilla in the room is the government is not going to let that revenue stream dry up they will find a way to recoup those losses due to EV taking on a larger percentage of vehicles on the road over time.

View attachment 568431

At the $0.70 MAX, that's $0.02 PER MILE tax (@ a typical 35 mpg) :

Now, add 2 cents to what I'm saying is A current cost of $0.025 per mile (VS gasoline cost of $0.11 per mile):

Estimated Future cost with Future Taxes applied to EV: $0.045 per mile (VS current $0.11 or potential future $0.12 at 10% increase in cost of gas to the exclusion of any potential increase in Gas Taxes).

So, there is your increase in EV price (e.g. from $0.025 for some drivers today without Roads Use/Mntnc surcharge taxe, to $0.045 (with tax, at $0.02 per mile) = < $0.11).

Convince yourself however you need to. News flash. Everything increases in price. You’re counting on the cost of fuel to increase at a rate higher than electricity. Remind again what much of our baseload power generation uses for fuel? And no, I never said your (a) scenario that’s your own inference. Read on below.

 

[UT-Rex]

Convince yourself however you need to. News flash. Everything increases in price. You’re counting on the cost of fuel to increase at a rate higher than electricity. Remind again what much of our baseload power generation uses for fuel? And no, I never said your (a) scenario that’s your own inference. Read on below.

ETA: again, if you want to convince yourself that the government is going to willingly just let the tax receipts from fuel surcharges dry up by all means go nuts. Make up as many scenarios in your head as you need to do that I guess. That has been my whole point in all this, those receipts are going to get paid in some fashion or another. On EVs also.

No I'm not "counting on" that: rather, it's possible that gasoline $ could increase as demand wanes from the automobile industry customers.

Regardless (and IF OPEc keeps gas $ the same): I just showed that a 2cent per mile Roads tax (at your 70 cents rate) applied to a 2.5 cent actual cost of EV charge (with other non-Roads surcharges already) = 4.5 cents ( which is still significantly < A current gas cost of 11 cents).

 

[kiddiedoc]

I don't trust the government to NOT screw us in any way they see fit, but for now, the savings are undeniable. I would absolutely count on taxes or registration fees going up on EVs, once they convince enough people to make the transition.

 

[UT-Rex]

Convince yourself however you need to. News flash. Everything increases in price. You’re counting on the cost of fuel to increase at a rate higher than electricity. Remind again what much of our baseload power generation uses for fuel? And no, I never said your (a) scenario that’s your own inference. Read on below.

ETA: again, if you want to convince yourself that the government is going to willingly just let the tax receipts from fuel surcharges dry up by all means go nuts. Make up as many scenarios in your head as you need to do that I guess. That has been my whole point in all this, those receipts are going to get paid in some fashion or another. On EVs also.

Also, don't confuse or convince yourself and others related to $ of actual electricity kWh use charge rates with Roads taxes (expected to be future-applied).

There are other, expected consumer-direct cost-savings associated with EV (e.g. repairs and maintenance) ; e.g. like the cost of early mobile phone services, some of the cost might likely decrease over the next 10 years (decrease, relative to cost of inflation and gov't taxes).

In 1949, AT&T commercialized Mobile Telephone Service. MTS was expensive, costing US$15 per month, plus $0.30–0.40 per local call, equivalent to (in 2012 US dollars) about $176 per month and $3.50–4.75 per call.
History of mobile phones - Wikipedia

 

[UT-Rex]

I don't trust the government to NOT screw us in any way they see fit, but for now, the savings are undeniable. I would absolutely count on taxes or registration fees going up on EVs, once they convince enough people to make the transition.

Said another way: (as in the days of the Romans) we can trust that gov't will provide us with reasonably well-maintained roads and surfaces so as to afford us the general comfort of transporting our families and goods around town and country (whereby, we give to Caesar what is Caesar's / find it joy to pay for upkeep and maintenance).

 

[kiddiedoc]

Said another way: (as in the days of the Romans) we can trust that gov't will provide us with reasonably well-maintained roads and surfaces so as to afford us the general comfort of transporting our families and goods around town and country (whereby, we give to Caesar what is Caesar's / find it joy to pay for upkeep and maintenance).

Nice.

Interesting factoid: do you know the origin of the standard rail width for train tracks?

 

[PEPPERJAX]

Said another way: (as in the days of the Romans) we can trust that gov't will provide us with reasonably well-maintained roads and surfaces so as to afford us the general comfort of transporting our families and goods around town and country (whereby, we give to Caesar what is Caesar's / find it joy to pay for upkeep and maintenance).

Caesar would be able to provide some great insight to Pete if he was still alive. RIP Dear Caesar.

 

[UT-Rex]

Nice.

Interesting factoid: do you know the origin of the standard rail width for train tracks?

Nope, can't recall -- what is it (does it have something to do with Corinth (?) / the system they put in place to manually transport ships across the land from one side to the other?).

 

[UT-Rex]

Caesar would be able to provide some great insight to Pete if he was still alive. RIP Dear Caesar.

the Ceasar commit applies to all govt's and citizens (as going way back before Rome came to power / Persians, Babylon, etc)

[ as for "Pete" / Peter, the one who openly confessed to be no greater than any other "elder" in the church ( << i.e. he wouldn't even let a man bow down to him << he would be appalled at any man associating himself with himself as sitting on a throne in Rome << if you're going to reference him, consider these truths):

1 Peter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:

Acts 10:
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”]

 

[PEPPERJAX]

the Ceasar commit applies to all govt's and citizens (as going way back before Rome came to power / Persians, Babylon, etc)

[ as for "Pete" / Peter, the one who openly confessed to be no greater than any other "elder" in the church ( << i.e. he wouldn't even let a man bow down to him << he would be appalled at any man associating himself with himself as sitting on a throne in Rome << if you're going to reference him, consider these truths):

1 Peter 5:1 The elders who are among you I exhort, I who am a fellow elder and a witness of the sufferings of Christ, and also a partaker of the glory that will be revealed:

Acts 10:
As Peter was coming in, Cornelius met him and fell down at his feet and worshiped him. But Peter lifted him up, saying, “Stand up; I myself am also a man.”]

That is the wrong "Pete" Mr. Rex.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I don't trust the government to NOT screw us in any way they see fit, but for now, the savings are undeniable. I would absolutely count on taxes or registration fees going up on EVs, once they convince enough people to make the transition.

Completely agree. And that was my whole point.

 

[Willy P]

Nice.

Interesting factoid: do you know the origin of the standard rail width for train tracks?

I saw this on LinkedIn I think.... all started from the width of a horse's ass, back in the Roman chariot days. Was an interesting read.

 

[LouderVol]

Hot take: if you are buying an EV and are concerned about pushing the limits of the reported range, you are making a poor decision.

I guess it depends on how much they are off by.

If its in the single digits percentage wise, that seems fair. If its in the double digits that starts to be foul territory.

 

[UT-Rex]

That is the wrong "Pete" Mr. Rex.

Ahh, P.B ! Apologies.

 

[UT-Rex]

I saw this on LinkedIn I think.... all started from the width of a horse's ass, back in the Roman chariot days. Was an interesting read.

I had to look it up: seems it's also associated with the width of the chariot wheels

 

[NorthDallas40]

Also, don't confuse or convince yourself and others related to $ of actual electricity kWh use charge rates with Roads taxes (expected to be future-applied).

There are other, expected consumer-direct cost-savings associated with EV (e.g. repairs and maintenance) ; e.g. like the cost of early mobile phone services, some of the cost might likely decrease over the next 10 years (decrease, relative to cost of inflation and gov't taxes).

In 1949, AT&T commercialized Mobile Telephone Service. MTS was expensive, costing US$15 per month, plus $0.30–0.40 per local call, equivalent to (in 2012 US dollars) about $176 per month and $3.50–4.75 per call.
History of mobile phones - Wikipedia

LMAO the way you’re bowing up like somebody just called your newborn the ugliest baby ever born it’s rather obvious you’ve convinced yourself EVs are THE answer and any one that even hints otherwise shall be rebuked to the maximum degree.

Since you like to play “what if” let’s do that. Let’s say you drive 7500 miles a year and your old ICE car got 15 miles to the gallon. You’re new awesome and everyone should have one EV has an 82kWh battery with a 300 mile published range. Those are around the Model 3 numbers I believe. 7500 / 300 = 25 EV fill ups. The mfg doesn’t want you to run the battery out so let’s assume that 300 mi only uses 85% capacity. Before you scream your baby isn’t ugly both of those assumptions, using published range and only 85%, helps your case.

So that’s 25 x 82kWh x 85% = 1742 kWh that you have to pay for. That’s it just apply whatever energy rate where you live and that’s your current cost. For me at $0.15 that’s $261.

But now the government(s) are losing out on 7500 / 15 = 500 gal of fuel tax receipts. TX and TN are close so let’s call that $0.45 for $225 that they are going to come wanting back. That’s actually not a large amount which is great but it does almost double the current environment. And there is a whole new charging infrastructure that is going to have to be paid for as well as a level 2 charger installation that is needed to have any charging flexibility. And the vast majority of homes do not have a 50A 240V plug in their garage so there is an additional cost associated there. And before the EV avenger bows up about level 1 chargers in a standard duplex 110V plug you are limited to around 1.7kW max before the breaker pops. So full charging time is 82kWh/1.7kW = 48 hrs min. Yes, min because once you get near full capacity the amperage curve backs down but the “good news” is it isn’t likely to do much due to the slow ass level 1 charge rate.

Published gas costs in TX and TN today are very close call it $3.45. So my yearly fuel costs are 500 x 3.45 = $1725. Hey there is clearly a cost advantage even with recouped taxes that’s a $1200 delta per year roughly.

So basically you have to take the added up front costs (which the government is trying to coerce you to bite off because nobody really wants EVs currently) and amortize them over the life of the car at around $1200-1400 a year and if you don’t want to be tied to your freaking level 1 charger to spring for installation of a level 2 so that’s extra cost that’s got to be amortized. And there’s always the 800 lb gorilla sitting there of overloading the power grid with all of this new required transmission capacity.

Today I can drive my F250 up to the gas pump and consume the last drop of fuel in the tank before the engine dies, blast 30 gallons into the tank in 5 minutes, and be on my way at full range. You’re hopelessly doomed to even approach that ability today even at the high voltage public chargers and physics is going to preclude you from ever overcoming it. Plus your bought and paid for level 2 charger in your garage will never be capable of that as the power grid maxes out at 240V residential power. And I don’t have to leave a gas pump hooked up to my truck all night long at home. Nor make sure my portable level 1 gas pump has refill time when I travel.

Owning an EV is a lifestyle choice and will be for the foreseeable future. It is far from the slam dunk must do that you’re preaching about, EV Avenger.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Hot take: if you are buying an EV and are concerned about pushing the limits of the reported range, you are making a poor decision.

Just as in a ICE car that’s largely governed by your right foot I believe. Energy usage rate is energy usage rate.

 

[NorthDallas40]

@kiddiedoc I ran across this article on Model 3 Performance track testing. If you haven’t seen it the Model 3 was amongst the quickest cars on lap time that the author had driven. I’m sure your EV will be a hoot on the track.

https://gorally.com/model-3-performance/