Electric Vehicles

[EasternVol]

Obviously, Eastern was speaking about mining : I'm pointing out that the fun we have on our Lakes also comes at a cost to some (the total elimination of "huge chunks of" land to gain boating access and elect), showing the similarities with mining of coal, diamonds, nickel and other resources and Walmart-type developments.

Simple concept.

Good news -- "Tesla confirmed that nearly half of all its vehicles produced last quarter (Dec '21) are already using cobalt-free iron-phosphate (LFP) batteries"

Dams have their own drawbacks as do all current means of energy production. And if they're poorly planned or sited they're worse. Look at the degredation of the Mekong from dams upstream in PRC, or at Tapanuli in Sumatra (hmm, PRC built too) for example. TVA dams at least have benefits apart from energy production (flood control, recreational, economic development) and are sustainable. They produce for what, 100 or more years?
Mining to meet additional demand of minerals for EV batteries is a one time per place operation and in the 3rd world ruins the land and nearby rivers, lakes and sea.
It's not apples to apples.
Read Mongabay or something similar to see what's happening to get that battery material.
EV's are being pushed hard as our environmental salvation but those driving that agenda are silent on the massive environmental costs. That's not to mention the benefit to PRC.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Doc,

Approx how many hours or minutes does it take to charge your EV, at your house ? I suspect approx 5-10 hrs (from 10 to 100% e.g.),

How inconvenient (if any inconvenience) have you found this process to be ?

He’s got a 82kW battery in his Tesla and he likely paid for a level 2 charger. It’s going to be around 10 hours for a full range of charge. (Edit: 11kW max AC charge rate that fits an 50A circuit so 6 or 8 hrs depending on battery). Again I don’t need you to tell me how long it takes to charge I can calculate it. You’re the one that needs the marketing brochure. But tell us about your level 1 charger in your Bolt that’s got you all enamored. Then I can go look up the specs and calculate it.

Oh and the truly hilarious part in your post is it’s pretty clear you don’t have a level 2 charger at home. Now I really understand how you have to convince yourself you did the right thing

 

[UT-Rex]

Dams have their own drawbacks as do all current means of energy production. And if they're poorly planned or sited they're worse. Look at the degredation of the Mekong from dams upstream in PRC, or at Tapanuli in Sumatra (hmm, PRC built too) for example. TVA dams at least have benefits apart from energy production (flood control, recreational, economic development) and are sustainable. They produce for what, 100 or more years?
Mining to meet additional demand of minerals for EV batteries is a one time per place operation and in the 3rd world ruins the land and nearby rivers, lakes and sea.
It's not apples to apples.
Read Mongabay or something similar to see what's happening to get that battery material.
EV's are being pushed hard as our environmental solution but those driving that agenda are silent on the massive environmental costs.
That's not to mention how they benefit PRC.

And you are likely surely as concerned about smart phones :

"More than one-half of all components in a mobile device—including its electronics, display, battery, speakers, and more—are made from mined and semi-processed materials (mineral commodities)"

A World of Minerals in Your Mobile Device (usgs.gov)

 

[NorthDallas40]

Doc,

Approx how many hours or minutes does it take to charge your EV, at your house ? I suspect approx 5-10 hrs (from 10 to 100% e.g.),

How inconvenient (if any inconvenience) have you found this process to be ?

Here ya go! 8 hrs right around the high side of what I said? You’re welcome. Now about your Bolt on your level 1 charger.

Tesla Model 3 Performance

 

[UT-Rex]

Here ya go! 8 hrs right around the high side of what I said? You’re welcome. Now about your Bolt on your level 1 charger.

Tesla Model 3 Performance

Sure, and I already said 4-10 (if it helps ease you, I admit that the 4-6 portion of my estimate was too low).

8-10 hours seems quite convenient / not too inconvenient for many drivers to leave their vehic plugged in over night.

^ And that's from 0 -- if you only need to charge 100 miles (100 miles roundtrip for work, or 100 miles roundtrip to the Lake-boat at storage), that would be approx 2-3-4 hours.

How long to charge a 180kWh on a level 2 charger Ronald?

4-10 hours / about the usual time that most ICE machines are sitting in the garage over night.

 

[EasternVol]

And you are likely surely as concerned about smart phones :

"More than one-half of all components in a mobile device—including its electronics, display, battery, speakers, and more—are made from mined and semi-processed materials (mineral commodities)"

A World of Minerals in Your Mobile Device (usgs.gov)

Do AOC, Biden, et al push mandatory smart phone usage? Do they say smart phones are an environmental panacea? How many tons of ore does it take to make a smart phone battery vs an EV battery?
I'm sure you understand the point about the environmental costs of creating something that's being pushed to save the environment. Right?
Here's another tidbit for you. While Indonesia is ripping up wilderness in Sulawesi, Halmahera, etc. with PRC assistance for EV battery material, and others are elsewhere, they're building smelters to process the ore. What super environmentaly friendly source will power the smelters, you may ask. Well to paraphrase ND40, they're all out of unicorn flatulence, so it's coal.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Sure, and I already said 4-10 (if it helps ease you, I admit that the 4-6 portion of my estimate was too low).

So now about extrapolating the battery size in these small passenger cars to the most popular vehicles sold in North America? It’s going to take 150 kWh+ batteries to give those light duty trucks and SUVs any range. And you cherry picked Tesla which has the maximum AC level 2 charge rate off a 50A circuit already. So that’s around 13.5 hrs min assuming they match Tesla’s benchmark of max level 2 charging? I mean you were lazy on your other cherry picked Toyota it’s only 6.6kWh max charging rate. That goes to 23+ hrs

Like it or not I know what I’m talking about on EV charging. I’ve read about them on and off for about a decade based on my career. It’s an interesting topic for me. And my knowledge of them is why I’ll never buy a battery powered EV.

You keep ignoring what I’ve put up as the holy grail EV, fuel cell powered. I mean… if you really gave a about the environment you’d be all over that instead of your BEV marketing blitz. What’s wrong don’t want to trade the Bolt?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Do AOC, Biden, et al push mandatory smart phone usage? Do they say smart phones are an environmental panacea? How many tons of ore does it take to make a smart phone battery vs an EV battery?
I'm sure you understand the point about the environment costs of creating something that's being pushed to save the environment. Right?
Here's another tidbit for you. While Indonesia is ripping up wilderness in Sulawesi, Halmahera, etc. with PRC assistance for EV battery material, and others are elsewhere, they're building smelters to process the ore. What super environmentaly friendly source will power the smelters, you may ask. Well to paraphrase ND40, they're all out of unicorn flatulence, so it's coal.

Watching this tool trying to equate the amount of ore required to mfg a 1500+ lb battery pack compared to all the considerably smaller electronic devices he keeps marching out has been one of my most enjoyable laughing points in this exchange.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Sure, and I already said 4-10 (if it helps ease you, I admit that the 4-6 portion of my estimate was too low).

8-10 hours seems quite convenient / not too inconvenient for many drivers to leave their vehic plugged in over night.

^ And that's from 0 -- if you only need to charge 100 miles (100 miles roundtrip for work, or 100 miles roundtrip to the Lake-boat at storage), that would be approx 2-3-4 hours.

So about your edit Ronald. I’ll decide what’s convenient for me not you and not the damn government. The rest of your post is more irrelevant rationalization. Charge time = range. If you want to drive 100 miles you have to replace 100 miles of charge. 200 miles then 200 miles of charge. And once you start going to public level 2 and 3 chargers your cost advantage rapidly erodes. It’s still positive but highly eroded. And you keep going thru all these mental gymnastics telling yourself how awesome it is when I can blast max range in my 30 gal tank in under 5 minutes without breaking out a slide rule or looking in an app for a refueling station

 

[UT-Rex]

Do AOC, Biden, et al push mandatory smart phone usage? Do they say smart phones are an environmental panacea? How many tons of ore does it take to make a smart phone battery vs an EV battery?
I'm sure you understand the point about the environment costs of creating something that's being pushed to save the environment. Right?
Here's another tidbit for you. While Indonesia is ripping up wilderness in Sulawesi, Halmahera, etc. with PRC assistance for EV battery material, and others are elsewhere, they're building smelters to process the ore. What super environmentaly friendly source will power the smelters, you may ask. Well to paraphrase ND40, they're all out of unicorn flatulence, so it's coal.

With all of these facts,

you might be a good one to call Gov Lee's office with your concerns -- obviously, he's gearing up for a seemingly significant source of funding / large increase of EV usage :

"Tennessee Gov. Bill Lee is considering allowing express toll lanes on highways and tripling a fee for electric car owners as he targets his first big push after winning reelection — paying for tens of billions of dollars in roadway projects."

Tennessee Gov. Lee mulls tripling EV fee, adding express toll lanes | Fortune

 

[UT-Rex]

So about your edit Ronald. I’ll decide what’s convenient for me not you and not the damn government. The rest of your post is more irrelevant rationalization. Charge time = range. If you want to drive 100 miles you have to replace 100 miles of charge. 200 miles then 200 miles of charge. And once you start going to public level 2 and 3 chargers your cost advantage rapidly erodes. It’s still positive but highly eroded. And you keep going thru all these mental gymnastics telling yourself how awesome it is when I can blast max range in my 30 gal tank in under 5 minutes without breaking out a slide rule or looking in an app for a refueling station

I'm not asking you to decide to change your position -- I'm telling you there's very little inconvenience (maybe even easier for some drivers to plug in at home VS standing outside at the gas station).

 

[UT-Rex]

So about your edit Ronald. I’ll decide what’s convenient for me not you and not the damn government. The rest of your post is more irrelevant rationalization. Charge time = range. If you want to drive 100 miles you have to replace 100 miles of charge. 200 miles then 200 miles of charge. And once you start going to public level 2 and 3 chargers your cost advantage rapidly erodes. It’s still positive but highly eroded. And you keep going thru all these mental gymnastics telling yourself how awesome it is when I can blast max range in my 30 gal tank in under 5 minutes without breaking out a slide rule or looking in an app for a refueling station

Hypothet: if, e.g. Oracle calls your firm to bid-design an EV charging layout for use by its non-auto-racing Employees at its new facility in Nashville, would you and your firm accept the commission (or refuse to work on the project) ?

I actually do Ronald. I’m an electrical engineer. This is all basic stuff to anybody not just swallowing EV marketing brochures

Now go read that bonus question on the new solid state batteries that accept a higher rate of charge.

That is THE singular reason to buy an EV. Especially one outfitted for performance. You’ve stated that was a if not the driver in your choice. From that stance you chose wisely.

Put a fuel cell energy source in a final electric drive EV and that is the pinnacle of vehicle development I believe.

 

[NorthDallas40]

I'm not asking you to decide to change your position -- I'm telling you there's very little inconvenience (maybe easier for some drivers to plug in at home VS standing outside at the gas station).

Yep. And I’m telling you you’re wrong for a majority of the people. BEV sales are going to flatten out in the not too distant future since A) Americans love their SUVs snd trucks and B) that means they’re going to be forced to public level 2 and 3 chargers for any charging convenience time. Residential chargers won’t be able to service them in any reasonable time and a level 2 residential is going to be the entry point. That is additional cost for the home wiring. At that’s an 1800 lb battery to push those vehicles. Your EV rose colored glasses are going to crack.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Hypothet: if, e.g. Oracle calls your firm to bid-design an EV charging layout at its new facility in Nashville, would you and your firm accept the commission (or refuse to work on the project) ?

Not my choice and not my industry I work in aerospace. And they wouldn’t use my services anyway they would use the readily available products already designed to fill that space.

 

[UT-Rex]

Yep. And I’m telling you you’re wrong for a majority of the people. BEV sales are going to flatten out in the not too distant future since A) Americans love their SUVs snd trucks and B) that means they’re going to be forced to public level 2 and 3 chargers for any charging convenience time. Residential chargers won’t be able to service them in any reasonable time and a level 2 residential is going to be the entry point. That is additional cost for the home wiring. At that’s an 1800 lb battery to push those vehicles. Your EV rose colored glasses are going to crack.

You should probably take your concerns more directly to the automotive and real estate industries --


Building the 2030 National Charging Network
NREL Study Identifies Nationwide Charging Needs for Accelerating EV Adoption
June 27, 2023 | By Anna Squires | Contact media relations

Building the 2030 National Charging Network | News | NREL

"Between ambitious federal clean energy policies, pledges by automotive companies to transition to zero-emission vehicles, and accelerating consumer demand for EVs, analysts have projected that by 2030, EVs could account for 30–42 million light-duty vehicles on the road."

I actually do Ronald. I’m an electrical engineer. This is all basic stuff to anybody not just swallowing EV marketing brochures

Now go read that bonus question on the new solid state batteries that accept a higher rate of charge.

 

[NorthDallas40]

You should probably take your concerns more directly to the automotive industry --


Building the 2030 National Charging Network
NREL Study Identifies Nationwide Charging Needs for Accelerating EV Adoption
June 27, 2023 | By Anna Squires | Contact media relations

Building the 2030 National Charging Network | News | NREL

"Between ambitious federal clean energy policies, pledges by automotive companies to transition to zero-emission vehicles, and accelerating consumer demand for EVs, analysts have projected that by 2030, EVs could account for 30–42 million light-duty vehicles on the road."

Yep I know. And yet they continue to have to bribe consumers to buy them why is that now? And what is going to power these high power charging stations? More unicorn farts? This is one of the stupidest ideas the government has forced on people since solar panels. How’s that working out?

 

[UT-Rex]

Not my choice and not my industry I work in aerospace. And they wouldn’t use my services anyway they would use the readily available products already designed to fill that space.

Are you saying: designed, wearing EV rose colored glasses.

Seriously, these have been interesting discussions, but you're not in the industry, and industry professionals are forecasting strong demand:

"Estimating the EV charging infrastructure needs of an entire nation required NREL researchers to consider a vast array of data—from projecting drivers' typical charging needs and EV adoption rates 7 years into the future to examining how different climates across the United States might affect energy requirements."

"And rather than creating a one-size-fits-all approach to charging, the study considers the realities of life across the United States: differences in weather, housing types, travel behaviors, and preferences in charging options."

Building the 2030 National Charging Network | News | NREL

Yep. And I’m telling you you’re wrong for a majority of the people. BEV sales are going to flatten out in the not too distant future since A) Americans love their SUVs snd trucks and B) that means they’re going to be forced to public level 2 and 3 chargers for any charging convenience time. Residential chargers won’t be able to service them in any reasonable time and a level 2 residential is going to be the entry point. That is additional cost for the home wiring. At that’s an 1800 lb battery to push those vehicles. Your EV rose colored glasses are going to crack.

 

[NorthDallas40]

L

Are you saying: designed, wearing EV rose colored glasses.

Seriously, these have been interesting discussions, but you're not in the industry, and industry professionals are forecasting strong demand:

"Estimating the EV charging infrastructure needs of an entire nation required NREL researchers to consider a vast array of data—from projecting drivers' typical charging needs and EV adoption rates 7 years into the future to examining how different climates across the United States might affect energy requirements."

"And rather than creating a one-size-fits-all approach to charging, the study considers the realities of life across the United States: differences in weather, housing types, travel behaviors, and preferences in charging options."

Building the 2030 National Charging Network | News | NREL

LMAO I’m not in the industry. I’m a controls systems engineer. I’ve spent over 30 years designing electro mechanical systems using power generation amplifiers current feedback motor amplifiers and BLDC / AC synchronous motors. You know… the same drive systems in an electric vehicle. But your marketing brochure and googling trumps that

I’m off to play XBox. I’ll check later on your next marketing blurb.

 

[UT-Rex]

Right, you and I aren't in the industry. Right, in today's tech, 8-10 hours charge time (or, 2-3 hours for 100 miles, or 1 hr for 25 miles, or 30-36 minutes "at the pump") ;

Right, a good reason to buy (in your opinion, watching from the sidelines) is for auto-type racing ; and right -- trickle down, from auto-racing to consumer.

 

[Orangeslice13]

New permits for additional services in homes are now being restricted in several Tennessee counties……because there’s a load problem on the grid…..and we’re just getting started.

How is this supposed to work again?

 

[NorthDallas40]

Right, you and I aren't in the industry. Right, in today's tech, 8-10 hours charge time (or, 2-3 hours for 100 miles, or 1 hr for 25 miles, or 30-36 minutes "at the pump") ;

Right, a good reason to buy (in your opinion, watching from the sidelines) is for auto-type racing ; and right -- trickle down, from auto-racing to consumer.

Look down one post Ronald. But sure … I’m not in the industry

 

[NorthDallas40]

New permits for additional services in homes are now being restricted in several Tennessee counties……because there’s a load problem on the grid…..and we’re just getting started.

How is this supposed to work again?

It won’t work. It’s complete lunacy and the government knows it. But what do you know you aren’t in the industry Slice.

ETA: they know it’s stupid. They’ve looked at it. The projected increase in grid capacity swamps the growth in recent years which they haven’t managed well. But this time it will be different

Why the electric vehicle boom could put a major strain on the U.S. power grid

Domestic electricity demand in 2022 is expected to increase up to 18% by 2030 and 38% by 2035, according to an analysis by the Rapid Energy Policy Evaluation and Analysis Toolkit, or REPEAT, an energy policy project out of Princeton University. That's a big change over the roughly 5% increase we saw in the past decade.

 

[NorthDallas40]

Right, you and I aren't in the industry. Right, in today's tech, 8-10 hours charge time (or, 2-3 hours for 100 miles, or 1 hr for 25 miles, or 30-36 minutes "at the pump") ;

Right, a good reason to buy (in your opinion, watching from the sidelines) is for auto-type racing ; and right -- trickle down, from auto-racing to consumer.

So in the industry I am in, defense aerospace, my last system design utilized an energy storage system because the short term usage demands of the “load” far exceeded the host vehicle’s power capability. We used … wait for it… Li-ion batteries at 270VDC because 270VDC is a common aircraft power and its usage and application is specified in MIL-STD-704. The con ops were to utilize stored energy in the battery and then using a designed in high voltage DC/DC charger to recharge the battery system. We’re “not in the industry” so we couldn’t use an 1800 lb battery pack as anyone proposing such an idiotic waste of mass would be publicly beaten, thrown out of the room, and the door locked behind them. So our energy storage mass was much smaller and thus our operational time was much shorter. Additionally the recharge time was several times the system utilization time so conops are highly affected greatly limiting system availability and utilization rates.

No I’m “not in the industry”. But let’s see if you can find all of the analogies to “the industry” in that very real world design example using the state of the art components available to ALL the industries right now, Ronald.

 

[zhangliao04]

New permits for additional services in homes are now being restricted in several Tennessee counties……because there’s a load problem on the grid…..and we’re just getting started.

How is this supposed to work again?

Supposedly.

 

[NorthDallas40]

View attachment 569735

Supposedly.

Well the good news is the wind from all the policy blow hard idiots is significant so if we can get them to speak their stupidity near a wind farm we can try to harness that stupidity for some good