ESPN thinks we go 4-8 next year

[oregonvol]

Link to all these percentages and other claims you're making above?

What specific point are you challenging? You want me to post links to every coach who started with several poor years at a school and ended up doing a bad job overall? That will take months. How about you post links to all the recent coaches who started with several poor years and won championships? Should take 5 minutes.

Most other coaches you cite, sat in a talent rich state. CBJ doesn't have that privilege though the talent in Tennessee high schools is improving. Those coaches you cite already had stocked, talented, ready to rumble teams. Spurrier being an example of an exception. Auburn is a perfect example. They had the talent, which oddly was in place because Gus had recruited those players before being canned. He just got re-hired, came back and coached them more effectively than the guy who preceded him. I'd wager if you took a hard look at those "instant" winner coaches you flap about, you'd find they too had the actual talent in place to win sooner than CBJ will.

Based on documented recruiting rankings, CBJ had as much talent as many successful coaches, like Sumlin, Kelly, etc. Clearly he had much more talent than Franklin. What objective source are you using to determine what talent the coaches had when they took over?

Jones is the right man. He will get us there. Even folks outside UT and the SEC are saying the key will be the patience needed by the fanbase to give him time to get the job done. Hopefully, Hart has sense enough to not listen to the knee jerk fans and give Jones that time.

I don't recall anyone calling for Jones to be fired. And obviously, Hart can't ever fire Jones anyway. Obviously, Hart would have to go before we could even think about letting an AD hire a new coach.

 

[sjt18]

generally speaking, year 1.....it ain't the coaching.

on most occasions for a major rebuilding project, step 1 is to tear what's already been built, down. then, you begin the process of building it back up. correctly, this time.

brick by brick

True or not. Almost every coach who takes over a program to rebuild it that ends up being successful improves the W/L result in the first year.

Many overlook the results last year. I am still in wait and see mode but last year was an underachievement both of the talent and also in comparison to what successful new coaches usually do.

 

[sjt18]

competing for championships means what to you? Anybody that thinks Cody Blanc is a D1 player loses me......

Cody Blanc is a well put together 6'3", 200 lb WR with decent speed and athleticism. He has sufficient talent to be a role player for a BCS team.

You are lost all the time apparently... not surprising that you'd look at Blanc and see a dud but see similar athletes on other teams and consider them "beasts".


What does competing for championships mean? It means 8-10 wins year in, year out with a better record and conference championship game appearance at least once every 3-4 years.... and a championship in about half of those. Better than that would be great too... but that's the "minimum" of "competing" for championships. It is not 4 blow out losses in a season, losses to teams like Vandy or UK,... or "hoping" to get to 6 wins for a Music City Bowl but being unsure if your coach and team are good enough to meet that "lofty" goal.



The national championship stuff takes care of itself after you start winning in the SEC.

 

[99gator]

True or not. Almost every coach who takes over a program to rebuild it that ends up being successful improves the W/L result in the first year.

Many overlook the results last year. I am still in wait and see mode but last year was an underachievement both of the talent and also in comparison to what successful new coaches usually do.

how many of those coaches lost their starting qb?

 

[sjt18]

Fortunately, I could definitely see Butch relying entirely on promises of early playing time, selling the future, and all around personality to recruits regardless of this year's W/L ratio. He can probably still spin the "next year is the year" talk, and I think that will translate into results soon.

If I am a coach competing with Jones for a recruit after he's finished with less than 6 wins in each of his first two seasons... I can think of dozens of not really even negative recruiting angles to take recruits away from him.

One of them is simply "bluster". Jones enthusiasm is GREAT if it turns into wins. If it doesn't... then it is VERY easy to portray him as nothing more than a guy full of hot air but in over his head against top coaches.

Six to 8 wins with a team that shows up and is competitive every time out... will keep the recruits interested.

 

[sjt18]

how many of those coaches lost their starting qb?

I'd have to go back and look. Injuries happen. You know that. I doubt Jones is the only new coach to lose his starting QB.

I'd actually agree (contrary to many here) that Worley is a good talent and that the team was improving with him. With him, I think UT gives Mizzou more of a fight and beats Vandy. I also think the UF game would have been more in question had JW started. I respect Jones for trying to see if a guy who was performing in practice could be a "gamer" and bring something more... but it didn't work.

 

[99gator]

I'd have to go back and look. Injuries happen. You know that. I doubt Jones is the only new coach to lose his starting QB.

I'd actually agree (contrary to many here) that Worley is a good talent and that the team was improving with him. With him, I think UT gives Mizzou more of a fight and beats Vandy. I also think the UF game would have been more in question had JW started. I respect Jones for trying to see if a guy who was performing in practice could be a "gamer" and bring something more... but it didn't work.

urban meyer inherited a roster that eventually won a national title.

but, i'll tell you now. if in 2005, chris leak was injured, florida would have been screwed. probably would have been screwed in 2006 as well because tim tebow wasn't ready

 

[ntxVOL]

Spurrier's success has as much to do with our own downfall as anything. The SEC East has been wide open the last few years, it's time we took advantage.

We aren't world beaters yet but I expect to see a much more competitive team this fall. If we can stay healthy in key positions, we could really cause some problems for our rivals. It's time for us to get back to our rightful place in this conference and it begins this season. So get ready folks cuz great things are ahead for us.

 

[BeattieFeathers]

So, you think we should all aspire to succeed at the same level as South Carolina and you hate our fanbase...sounds like a vol fan to me.

I dont have to agree with the minions that fired a hall of famer, fired a basketball coach that inherited an absolute dumpster fire from a proven liar and cheat, yet still won 20 games every year he was here, and already have the pitchforks out for a guy who is recruiting lights out, who inherited a worse situation than Coach Majors inherited. No sir, they are not my kind of fan and are unrealistic idiots.:hi:

 

[sjt18]

Most other coaches you cite, sat in a talent rich state. CBJ doesn't have that privilege though the talent in Tennessee high schools is improving.

Freeze improved OM. They have no more instate talent than Tn and especially once split between OM and MSU. USCe is in the same boat. They have a few more SC blue chips but split them with Clemson.

Those coaches you cite already had stocked, talented, ready to rumble teams.

That's not true. Saban didn't at either stop. Both times he dealt with more inner turmoil.

Auburn is a perfect example. They had the talent, which oddly was in place because Gus had recruited those players before being canned. He just got re-hired, came back and coached them more effectively than the guy who preceded him. I'd wager if you took a hard look at those "instant" winner coaches you flap about, you'd find they too had the actual talent in place to win sooner than CBJ will.

I have in the past thought of that angle and done that. Pretty much regardless of talent level... guys who will eventually succeed almost always improve the W/L record.

Jones is the right man. He will get us there. Even folks outside UT and the SEC are saying the key will be the patience needed by the fanbase to give him time to get the job done. Hopefully, Hart has sense enough to not listen to the knee jerk fans and give Jones that time.

Your faith isn't a good argument. Jones is the right man if he proves he's the right man. I agree that a degree of patience is necessary. I don't think we should sharpen the pitchforks if there are stumbles this fall or if he only manages to win 6. However there have to be serious questions asked if he wins 5 or less.

Jones has to literally take a mid level ACC or upper level Conference USA level team and make it into a SEC team.

Sorry... but no. Neither of those put 6+ players in the NFL in a single draft.

Even now, he's still has that level of talent to deal with in a number of positions. You need SEC level players and time to coach them to play like an SEC team. Fans who refuse to understand this and are dumb enough to want to push the UT into an ever deeper financial hole with another coaching staff buy out due to that dumbness, you'd deserve the outcome if successful.

Correct if we're talking about beating Bama or winning the East. We're not. We're talking about winning 6 or 7 games.

We'd just continue to be the laughingstock of the NCAA. Our foes should with great enthusiasm congratulate you for maintaining the ruined nature of our football program.

You think keeping a coach that cannot win against UT's level of competition will make UT an object of admiration? You think tolerating two consecutive losing seasons when there is enough talent for the "right" coach to get them to a bowl game will garner respect for UT??

At what point do you hold the COACH responsible for being a difference maker?... The difference between winning an evenly matched or slightly overmatched game? Basically, at what point do you expect the coach to be... THE COACH?

 

[WoodsmanVol]

What specific point are you challenging? You want me to post links to every coach who started with several poor years at a school and ended up doing a bad job overall? That will take months. How about you post links to all the recent coaches who started with several poor years and won championships? Should take 5 minutes.



Based on documented recruiting rankings, CBJ had as much talent as many successful coaches, like Sumlin, Kelly, etc. Clearly he had much more talent than Franklin. What objective source are you using to determine what talent the coaches had when they took over?



I don't recall anyone calling for Jones to be fired. And obviously, Hart can't ever fire Jones anyway. Obviously, Hart would have to go before we could even think about letting an AD hire a new coach.

Game of 360 degrees declined:

 

[sjt18]

urban meyer inherited a roster that eventually won a national title.

Yes he did. In fact, that's his history. He wins with the talent recruited by others. He doesn't seem to recruit well himself.

but, i'll tell you now. if in 2005, chris leak was injured, florida would have been screwed. probably would have been screwed in 2006 as well because tim tebow wasn't ready

Screwed enough to have a losing record or would Meyer have found a way to avoid that?

 

[99gator]

Yes he did. In fact, that's his history. He wins with the talent recruited by others. He doesn't seem to recruit well himself.



Screwed enough to have a losing record or would Meyer have found a way to avoid that?

screwed enough to have a worse record than the year before he took over. that was your measurement, i believe.

 

[sjt18]

I dont have to agree with the minions that fired a hall of famer,

No. You can be an "unrealistic idiot" and refuse to see that his vanity and unwillingness/inability to change with the game are DIRECTLY responsible for the decline of UT's football program.

He did great things for much of his career. It is a shame it ended as it did. But he caused the decline.

fired a basketball coach that inherited an absolute dumpster fire from a proven liar and cheat, yet still won 20 games every year he was here,

I thought the hostility toward Martin was a little over the top too... but since when was he fired?

and already have the pitchforks out for a guy who is recruiting lights out, who inherited a worse situation than Coach Majors inherited. No sir, they are not my kind of fan and are unrealistic idiots.:hi:

If he can't coach then he deserves criticism. If he does not prove he can improve the W/L column within 3 years then he has not earned the right to keep the job. If he takes two teams with sufficient talent for an "elite, championship level" coach to win 6 games with and wins less... then he deserves to be on a hot seat.

And don't even start with the ridiculous straw men. NO ONE here that I have seen believes he should not get a 3rd year regardless. But 5 or less wins puts him on a hot seat headed into '15. Recruiting will likely drop off. He will need a VERY good season in '15 to get himself back to good standing if he begins his UT career with two consecutive losing seasons.

Of course many of us are hopeful and believe we won't face this scenario. It is only "enlightened" folks like yourself who seem intent on writing another season off before it even starts.

 

[WoodsmanVol]

Freeze improved OM. They have no more instate talent than Tn and especially once split between OM and MSU. USCe is in the same boat. They have a few more SC blue chips but split them with Clemson.

That's not true. Saban didn't at either stop. Both times he dealt with more inner turmoil.

I have in the past thought of that angle and done that. Pretty much regardless of talent level... guys who will eventually succeed almost always improve the W/L record.

Your faith isn't a good argument. Jones is the right man if he proves he's the right man. I agree that a degree of patience is necessary. I don't think we should sharpen the pitchforks if there are stumbles this fall or if he only manages to win 6. However there have to be serious questions asked if he wins 5 or less.

Sorry... but no. Neither of those put 6+ players in the NFL in a single draft.

Correct if we're talking about beating Bama or winning the East. We're not. We're talking about winning 6 or 7 games.

You think keeping a coach that cannot win against UT's level of competition will make UT an object of admiration? You think tolerating two consecutive losing seasons when there is enough talent for the "right" coach to get them to a bowl game will garner respect for UT??

At what point do you hold the COACH responsible for being a difference maker?... The difference between winning an evenly matched or slightly overmatched game? Basically, at what point do you expect the coach to be... THE COACH?

I don't play with pointed things. Momma told me not to do that and experience taught me she was right.

As for impatient fans, I have to refuse ao abandon faith and hope. And decline to join them in a bath using sulfur water and goat milk soap. See you probably tomorrow when I get back from Bowling Green.

 

[BeattieFeathers]

No. You can be an "unrealistic idiot" and refuse to see that his vanity and unwillingness/inability to change with the game are DIRECTLY responsible for the decline of UT's football program.

He did great things for much of his career. It is a shame it ended as it did. But he caused the decline.

I thought the hostility toward Martin was a little over the top too... but since when was he fired?



If he can't coach then he deserves criticism. If he does not prove he can improve the W/L column within 3 years then he has not earned the right to keep the job. If he takes two teams with sufficient talent for an "elite, championship level" coach to win 6 games with and wins less... then he deserves to be on a hot seat.

And don't even start with the ridiculous straw men. NO ONE here that I have seen believes he should not get a 3rd year regardless. But 5 or less wins puts him on a hot seat headed into '15. Recruiting will likely drop off. He will need a VERY good season in '15 to get himself back to good standing if he begins his UT career with two consecutive losing seasons.

Of course many of us are hopeful and believe we won't face this scenario. It is only "enlightened" folks like yourself who seem intent on writing another season off before it even starts.

I understand you were a Dooley guy?

 

[Orange_Crush]

After that prediction, ESPN will be forced to give CBJ Coach of the Year.

 

[BeattieFeathers]

4-8 is a pretty thoughtless prediction.

I'd say 6-6 and 7-5 make more sense. Even accounting for disaster to strike, 5-7 seems more reasonable(Shatner comma)

The O'line and D'line do concern me but not as much as they probably should.

I can't think of anyone on the D'line that was better than what we will field this year. Maybe Big Dan(who played like a big slouch) but I feel that Danny O will surprise some people. He has nice hand quickness and is aggressive. On top of that you can add a more seasoned Vereen and a healthy Maggit to that line and it seems we have instant D End improvement. Once summer arrives we will see the depth either improve or we will know for sure how much our D line will hurt us. I think it's safe to say that at worst it will be a "push" compared to 2013.

As far as the O'line, I think the 2103 line played unmotivated and slow, possibly because they were unsure of the schemes maybe because they were one foot out the door on a disappointing losing and tumultuous stint at Tennessee. Regardless, I concede this current group may be less talented but we have had some core guys in practice for a few seasons and they seem to be hungry and understand the pressure they will face. It could be horrible, it could be pretty good - I see them to be average this first season and hold their own. Not a huge drop off from 2013.

The last spot that concerns me would be the secondary - S and CB to be exact.
We may be starting 2 true freshmen in those spots and that can be scary, although Cam Sutton seemed to do more than hold up his end last year. If those two spots can't produce we will be in some trouble, but if one or both can produce even close to Cam's output, well sunny days are here again.

Every other spot is a clear and in some areas dangerous upgrade(see WR,LB,RB,TE)
Even at the QB position at the very least should be a push.

I don't see us winning the natty title, but 4-8 would be a disgrace and only attributable to an injury plagued disaster of a season.

8-4 if we get some luck on our side, 7-5 or 6-6 more likely.

We'll know more in the summer.

The o-line was perhaps ill suited for Butch's offense, but they were a talented bunch. In fact, Coach Saban said they were the best unit that Alabama played last season. The problem with the offense was what was pointed out by a visitor in the spring of 2013 when it was said that our skill position players were the worst in the SEC. We started the season with some serious duds at te, not to mention wr. North emerged but as this season's depth chart currently shows, we were seriously hamstrung by lack of talent and lack of experience in the passing game. I felt sorry for Worley because the lack of experience, lack of knowing where to be, lack of reading defenses on the part of the receiving corp made him look worse than what he was. But more on point, and to be fair, the opposition and objective analysts see a freshman rt and a former walk on starting at lt. That compared to last season cannot be perceived as an improvement. Also, can we find someone that gives us something in the return game? I would risk North or Malone if it gets them more touches. Poor ol Devrin Young is a great little guy, but we need to do better than this Dooley recruit.

 

[MustafaRasta]

You may be on to something about the Tackle position. I certainly feel better about the 3 interior guys as opposed to the unproven players on the outside. It's my understanding though that Gilliam has been more impressive than Blair has been unimpressive so it's possible that Gilliam is solid. At the other tackle spot it seems to be Coleman Thomas and a true freshman at RT does not have me doing cart wheels.

So yea, I think the line will see a downgrade, but again not a big one. Saban praise is coach speak, I'd not put a ton of stock into it. We rushed for a solid 127 yards at 4.5 per clip against Bama - pretty good but nothing outstanding. They were torched worse than that. I agree our line was more individually talented but for whatever reason(any of the ones I mentioned in my OP) they did not perform well as a unit. Fourth and ones left on the field, false starts ect. Certainly not the unit the fan base expected to carry us pre season. I wish them well though.

I agree with you on the Worley point. He did throw some horrendous balls though.

Disagree on D. Young. Granted, he's not exactly a world beater but he's far from a guy that needs the moniker "poor ol" If he gets beat out as a return man, great that makes the team better, but he doesn't need to be pushed out due to some perceived failure.

 

[sjt18]

screwed enough to have a worse record than the year before he took over. that was your measurement, i believe.

All hypothetical since it never happened... but honestly I doubt it. I didn't like Meyer then and don't like him now. I think his difficulty in recruiting had a great deal with his own character flaws. But he knows how to coach football and get results.

 

[sjt18]

I understand you were a Dooley guy?

You understand wrong.

I was for Dooley getting his shot just like I am for Jones getting his shot. I used to think it was important to withhold criticism until it was time to make a final analysis or at least until Dooley got his 3 years. I predicted from the very start that he would have to make his move in year 3 to survive.

I was wrong. Not about Dooley getting a 3 year shot at turning things around but about reserving all criticism until the end.

Dooley got his shot. He failed. He was fired... just as he should have been. AND just like Jones should be if he doesn't do better.


NEVER did I advocate a blank check with no accountability for Dooley like you are for Jones.

 

[BeattieFeathers]

I never said a word about it being disrespectful.

Seriously though, do you not know what "disrespecting" means? What an odd thing to be confused about.



Except that he hadn't insisted on calling every other opponent "The (Insert-Color-Here) Team." So refusing to refer to Alabama by name has the potential to do the exact opposite of what he intended.



That's the thing about motivation: it cuts both ways. No matter how innocuous the tactic was (and believe me, it was totally innocuous), Alabama was able to turn it into a perceived slight.

Who cares? Go back to your trailer redneck!:machgun:

 

[BeattieFeathers]

You understand wrong.

I was for Dooley getting his shot just like I am for Jones getting his shot. I used to think it was important to withhold criticism until it was time to make a final analysis or at least until Dooley got his 3 years. I predicted from the very start that he would have to make his move in year 3 to survive.

I was wrong. Not about Dooley getting a 3 year shot at turning things around but about reserving all criticism until the end.

Dooley got his shot. He failed. He was fired... just as he should have been. AND just like Jones should be if he doesn't do better.


NEVER did I advocate a blank check with no accountability for Dooley like you are for Jones.

I knew Dooley was finished after the Kentucky debacle, but quite frankly, he was a jerk and not a nice person. He was a silver spooned, prep school, ivy league lawyer that could not relate to the average person. He was more concerned about his hairspray, his dry cleaning, the length of sideline benches, whether chicken sandwiches were being served instead of hamburgers etc. I'm convinced that Butch's background allows him to relate better with kids. He would have likely convinced Bryce Brown to stay, and gotten thru to the likes of Janzen Jackson,Tyler Bray, and Darick.
I believe Dave Hart needs to come out right now and state that we are going to the mat with Butch Jones, no matter the result this season. We don't need the negative Nancies burning up the keyboards and whining to the likes of Tony Basilio, especially if we get Gibson commited, else poor recruiting becomes a self fulfilling prophecy. I know two sports writers in Chattanooga who told me point blank that no way Tennessee wins 6 this year.

 

[oregonvol]

I love the idea that a coach being paid millions of dollars with a seven figure recruiting budget can't recruit unless everyone says good things about him on a messageboard. There's something pleasantly insane about that notion.

 

[bamawriter]

Who cares? Go back to your trailer redneck!:machgun:

"Who cares?"

You just randomly responded to a comment from 4 days and 23 pages ago.

You care.