'22 FL OT Brian Grant (Tennessee signee)

[sjt18]

I think the problem is that it is the same "new day" we've been seen for years now. To call out the administration's lack of a commitment to winning is not attacking the program. It's attacking the poor choices and lack of an investment in winning. Sitting by and saying nothing while the admin continues to dig UT deeper in a hole isnt going to magically improve because we have a new guy using the shovel.

Heupel was the right hire if AD White is "committed to winning". There was no reason to throw the $8-$12 million per year that would be needed to grab a coach that you approve of. For one... they might have failed even if they were inheriting a neutral situation. The situation isn't neutral. So the likelihood is that Freeze or whoever else it was that you thought to be the savior of the program if UT would just throw enough money his way... had a high likelihood of failing too. Bring someone like that in... and they fail... you have two big problems. One, you can't blame it on the coach. You brought in an elite coach and they couldn't fix it either. Two, you owe a mammoth, crippling buy out.

Heupel is a talented young coach who White knows. If he fails to win but endures whatever the NCAA throws at UT then you can blame the failure on coaching and pull out the checkbook for a BIG hitter.

Have you ever read or studied von Clausewitz? Two of his principles for war that apply here are "mass" and "economy of force".

Mass- concentrate combat power at the decisive time and place... this hire was NOT the "decisive" place for the future of Vol football.
Economy of force- allocate minimal essential power to secondary efforts... the primary effort now is to stabilize the program, establish a foundation of systems and players, and deal with the NCAA. The resources needed for the next level won't be needed for a couple of years. You spend them now... you don't have them then.

 

[TrippieRedd]

Did this guy have a ranking before? If not, he is a 0.8577.

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

People aren't driving across the state and spending millions of collective dollars in revenue to watch swimming, golf, tennis, soccer and volleyball. Fulmer didnt hire the mens BB coach. Making a terrible hire is FB is what really matters here.

Bull crap defense. Answer the question. They have to be judged on their complete body of work. The new AD, Head FBC have to put something on the filed, but the people and processes overseeing the ENTIRE department have allowed considerable improvement in the VAST MAJORITY of our programs. CPF messed up that hire to add on to the general decline fostered by previous leadership upstairs and in the AD. But that is an outlier for the CPF term, overseen in large part by Boyd and Plowman. Mediocrity does not fit their collective terms, and they are there because we flushed their predecessors. You can't hold them responsible for previous sins. So once again please list the sports programs that have advanced over the last three years and those that have declined. You can add a push column if needed. Let's talk facts not emotional judgements.

 

[volsfan_17]

Heupel was the right hire if AD White is "committed to winning". There was no reason to throw the $8-$12 million per year that would be needed to grab a coach that you approve of. For one... they might have failed even if they were inheriting a neutral situation. The situation isn't neutral. So the likelihood is that Freeze or whoever else it was that you thought to be the savior of the program if UT would just throw enough money his way... had a high likelihood of failing too. Bring someone like that in... and they fail... you have two big problems. One, you can't blame it on the coach. You brought in an elite coach and they couldn't fix it either. Two, you owe a mammoth, crippling buy out.

Great post!
Heupel is a talented young coach who White knows. If he fails to win but endures whatever the NCAA throws at UT then you can blame the failure on coaching and pull out the checkbook for a BIG hitter.

Have you ever read or studied von Clausewitz? Two of his principles for war that apply here are "mass" and "economy of force".

Mass- concentrate combat power at the decisive time and place... this hire was NOT the "decisive" place for the future of Vol football.
Economy of force- allocate minimal essential power to secondary efforts... the primary effort now is to stabilize the program, establish a foundation of systems and players, and deal with the NCAA. The resources needed for the next level won't be needed for a couple of years. You spend them now... you don't have them then.

 

[UTMVol76]

Didn’t have a chance to explain the other day..... I use to think stars and offer lists were all that mattered.... I came to realize that the most important attribute is being able to scout players and know which players fit your system..... I don’t know if hype and his staff can do that but it’s the most important quality in a coach..... As a coach/program grows eventually the stars and evaluations will coincide with each other.... The key is getting a few stars(especially at QB) and have solid players fill out the rest of your class..... in this covid year..... most recruiting sites/coaches have never even seen this kid play or properly evaluated him...... I am hoping this situation helps our staff get a great start towards building the program.

Couldn’t agree more with your assessment

 

[Vol Main]

Let's talk facts not emotional judgements.

Do you know where you are? Fact: this is Vol Nation.

 

[Volsdeep4]

Man y’all talking about Butch players and being small this guy is at 2 least years from playing college ball. Plus, Butch gave us some of the best years in recent memory sooo..
BOOOOMMMM

 

[VOLINVONORE]

Bull crap defense. Answer the question. They have to be judged on their complete body of work. The new AD, Head FBC have to put something on the filed, but the people and processes overseeing the ENTIRE department have allowed considerable improvement in the VAST MAJORITY of our programs. CPF messed up that hire to add on to the general decline fostered by previous leadership upstairs and in the AD. But that is an outlier for the CPF term, overseen in large part by Boyd and Plowman. Mediocrity does not fit their collective terms, and they are there because we flushed their predecessors. You can't hold them responsible for previous sins. So once again please list the sports programs that have advanced over the last three years and those that have declined. You can add a push column if needed. Let's talk facts not emotional judgements.

Fulmer was in a very difficult position. His predecessors had already offered almost every coach in the Country to come to Tennessee and this board rejected the one who finally said yes. He could have assumed both the AD and the HC position, but this board would have also rejected him as our HC. He found Pruitt and there appeared to be some merit to the selection. Pruitt actually started off OK with recruiting but failed with the overall offensive and defensive plans.
AD White was also placed in a extremely difficult position because the better coaches offered were not interested because, many of the better players were wanting to transfer, the cheating rumors were found to be true, he was hired so close to the February recruiting signing date, and 13 members of the coaching and non coaching staff were fired of cause. White was actually very fortunate that he could persuade Heupel to be our HC. At this point in time, I think we are very lucky to be were we are. Kudos to the Administration for what they have been able to accomplish under the worst of conditions. Our football program is in a complete rebuilt position. We will recover and we will be back among the best teams in the SEC in 2-4 years.

 

[sanefan]

You get it.

If you have to play 4* and 5* players at many positions to win, you are not developing. You are plug and play....

This is, in the best light, incomplete and misleading.

Development is incredibly important, but if two coaches are equally great at development, the one with better players has a higher ceiling.

When that ceiling is not reached, coaches get fired, so development is important even with great players. Plenty of folks on here tout the NFL draft as proof our coach can develop players and our previous coaches did not even though we had more "talent". I don't think anyone here will be happy with teams equal to UCF. the difference is we expect to be able start with more "talent" because we are UT.

We hired a coach and we should give him the chance to recruit AND develop before we hang him. I hope we don't fill up a class with 25 of these, but let's see what is done with this player and go from there.

 

[sjt18]

Development is incredibly important, but if two coaches are equally great at development, the one with better players has a higher ceiling.

That's sort of true but the one with the "better players" may not always be the one getting guys closer to their ceiling as a recruit- thus ranked higher by the recruiting sites.

Let's use this guy as a hypothetical. He is a very athletic 6'8" 275 lb guy. Where is his ceiling as a football player? He's clearly underdeveloped as a football player having only played a short time. Could he have a higher ceiling than Riley Quick? Riley is a 4* ranked the #15 OT by 247. Oh, btw, he is listed at 6'5" 260 lbs. Or how about the #22 OT who is 6'5" 295? How close is he already to his ceiling?

The recruit rankings aren't an exact science even in normal times. Covid isn't normal times. Few camps. Restricted seasons. Ranking offensive linemen is probably the least accurate process of all of them. It is just difficult to predict which kids outside of a top handful can add the weight and still have quickness.

 

[SSVol]

Heupel was the right hire if AD White is "committed to winning". There was no reason to throw the $8-$12 million per year that would be needed to grab a coach that you approve of. For one... they might have failed even if they were inheriting a neutral situation. The situation isn't neutral. So the likelihood is that Freeze or whoever else it was that you thought to be the savior of the program if UT would just throw enough money his way... had a high likelihood of failing too. Bring someone like that in... and they fail... you have two big problems. One, you can't blame it on the coach. You brought in an elite coach and they couldn't fix it either. Two, you owe a mammoth, crippling buy out.

Heupel is a talented young coach who White knows. If he fails to win but endures whatever the NCAA throws at UT then you can blame the failure on coaching and pull out the checkbook for a BIG hitter.

Have you ever read or studied von Clausewitz? Two of his principles for war that apply here are "mass" and "economy of force".

Mass- concentrate combat power at the decisive time and place... this hire was NOT the "decisive" place for the future of Vol football.
Economy of force- allocate minimal essential power to secondary efforts... the primary effort now is to stabilize the program, establish a foundation of systems and players, and deal with the NCAA. The resources needed for the next level won't be needed for a couple of years. You spend them now... you don't have them then.

Good post. Worst case he gets us to stable mediocrity. Not what most want, but worlds better than the dumpster fire we are now. Once stable, we can revisit whether Heupel is the man for the future. Of course we all hope he's the guy to take us higher, and I think personally think he'll he will.

 

[sjt18]

Good post. Worst case he gets us to stable mediocrity. Not what most want, but worlds better than the dumpster fire we are now. Once stable, we can revisit whether Heupel is the man for the future. Of course we all hope he's the guy to take us higher, and I think personally think he'll he will.

You said that a lot more succinctly than I did...

 

[sanefan]

That's sort of true but the one with the "better players" may not always be the one getting guys closer to their ceiling as a recruit- thus ranked higher by the recruiting sites.

Let's use this guy as a hypothetical. He is a very athletic 6'8" 275 lb guy. Where is his ceiling as a football player? He's clearly underdeveloped as a football player having only played a short time. Could he have a higher ceiling than Riley Quick? Riley is a 4* ranked the #15 OT by 247. Oh, btw, he is listed at 6'5" 260 lbs. Or how about the #22 OT who is 6'5" 295? How close is he already to his ceiling?

The recruit rankings aren't an exact science even in normal times. Covid isn't normal times. Few camps. Restricted seasons. Ranking offensive linemen is probably the least accurate process of all of them. It is just difficult to predict which kids outside of a top handful can add the weight and still have quickness.

Try not to get too caught up in the weeds. Certainly both recruiting services AND coaches are going miss on players both ways. That's why we should respect our coach enough to try and develop what he sees.

However, overall classes, ranked however you want by coaches or services, are going to differ in overall talent level coming in and therefore, as a whole, will have a different ceiling.

If recruiting services miss on Grant, which is entirely possible, that does not change fact that on average players with a 5.9 or higher estimated rating will fare better than those rated 5.6 or worse, individual players notwithstanding.

 

[sjt18]

Try not to get too caught up in the weeds. Certainly both recruiting services AND coaches are going miss on players both ways. That's why we should respect our coach enough to try and develop what he sees.

Using the NFL draft as the measuring stick without trying to account for those who bust for injury or non-football stuff... they get about half right on 5*. They get far fewer right on 4*. Half or more of most drafts will be 3* or lower and many unranked. That's not being caught up in the weeds... that's just the history.

However, overall classes, ranked however you want by coaches or services, are going to differ in overall talent level coming in and therefore, as a whole, will have a different ceiling.

I have long said that the rankings are more accurate on "average" than they are for any specific player. I also believe that any ranking can be plus or minus 10 spots either over or under rated. Again, this is far from an exact science.

HOWEVER, you also have a "chicken/egg" situation. Is it more true that the recruiting targets of the top performing coaches get high rankings or that highly rated players flock to those coaches? It is probably some of both but I think primarily it is a matter of the recruiting sites taking their cue from coaches like Saban. Did Dabo's classes suddenly get better after he proved he compete at the highest level... or did the recruiting sites just start to tip their hats to his targets?

Obviously the recruiting sites rank some players high that are recruited by otherwise lower tier recruiting programs. But they DO pay attention when Bama, OSU, UGA, UF, et al make a kid high priority.

If recruiting services miss on Grant, which is entirely possible, that does not change fact that on average players with a 5.9 or higher estimated rating will fare better than those rated 5.6 or worse, individual players notwithstanding.

I counted OL's taken in the recent draft. IIRC, there was one 2*, four 3*, on 4*, and I believe three 5*. So there are a few "can't miss" types of players.... but the accuracy of their rankings fall pretty quick after that when dealing with OL's.

There are skills that a RB has that easily lend themselves to being measured. OL is much less so plus most P-5 level OL's won't face many opponents on their level physically in HS.

 

[BigorangeBoy]

That TN tennis team that Volfan76 yawns about just spanked UGA to move to the final four.

 

[Mulevol93]

Never know how to feel about these types of pickups. Some people carry that athleticism when they put on lots of weight, and some people are Marcus Tatum.

 

[butchna]

Never know how to feel about these types of pickups. Some people carry that athleticism when they put on lots of weight, and some people are Marcus Tatum.

Ellarbe got production out of Tatum...fwiw.

 

[Mulevol93]

Ellarbe got production out of Tatum...fwiw.

Glad to hear-he got kicked around a lot here

 

[sanefan]

Using the NFL draft as the measuring stick without trying to account for those who bust for injury or non-football stuff... they get about half right on 5*. They get far fewer right on 4*. Half or more of most drafts will be 3* or lower and many unranked. That's not being caught up in the weeds... that's just the history.

I have long said that the rankings are more accurate on "average" than they are for any specific player. I also believe that any ranking can be plus or minus 10 spots either over or under rated. Again, this is far from an exact science.

HOWEVER, you also have a "chicken/egg" situation. Is it more true that the recruiting targets of the top performing coaches get high rankings or that highly rated players flock to those coaches? It is probably some of both but I think primarily it is a matter of the recruiting sites taking their cue from coaches like Saban. Did Dabo's classes suddenly get better after he proved he compete at the highest level... or did the recruiting sites just start to tip their hats to his targets?

Obviously the recruiting sites rank some players high that are recruited by otherwise lower tier recruiting programs. But they DO pay attention when Bama, OSU, UGA, UF, et al make a kid high priority.


I counted OL's taken in the recent draft. IIRC, there was one 2*, four 3*, on 4*, and I believe three 5*. So there are a few "can't miss" types of players.... but the accuracy of their rankings fall pretty quick after that when dealing with OL's.

There are skills that a RB has that easily lend themselves to being measured. OL is much less so plus most P-5 level OL's won't face many opponents on their level physically in HS.

I didn't read all this but since it is so long I guess you disagree. That is ok. I respect you and your posts.

I will continue to believe that great developers can only get as much as possible out of what they have, and not all players have the same potential. For me, all research indicates the teams fighting for NC are teams that have high-end developers of the great talent they recruit.

Schools recruiting high-end talent that fail to compete for NC fire their coaches.

I know you won't lose any sleep over my opinions. It's all good here.

 

[sjt18]

I didn't read all this but since it is so long I guess you disagree. That is ok. I respect you and your posts.

I will continue to believe that great developers can only get as much as possible out of what they have, and not all players have the same potential. For me, all research indicates the teams fighting for NC are teams that have high-end developers of the great talent they recruit.

Schools recruiting high-end talent that fail to compete for NC fire their coaches.

I know you won't lose any sleep over my opinions. It's all good here.

You should read my post. I consider this a really good exchange of opinions. Some agreement. Some disagreement on the "margins". But I'm learning from you.

 

[Devo182]

Did this guy have a ranking before? If not, he is a 0.8577.

He did not.

Fwiw does not appear ESPN has rated him yet. Rivals has him as a 5.6 (3 stars are 5.5-5.7) and 247 has him an 86.

 

[thunder5]

Did this guy have a ranking before? If not, he is a 0.8577.

Rivals gave him a 5.6 and 247 gave him an 86...his composite just updated based on those ratings

 

[GUNTERSVOL]

Fulmer was in a very difficult position. His predecessors had already offered almost every coach in the Country to come to Tennessee and this board rejected the one who finally said yes. He could have assumed both the AD and the HC position, but this board would have also rejected him as our HC. He found Pruitt and there appeared to be some merit to the selection. Pruitt actually started off OK with recruiting but failed with the overall offensive and defensive plans.
AD White was also placed in a extremely difficult position because the better coaches offered were not interested because, many of the better players were wanting to transfer, the cheating rumors were found to be true, he was hired so close to the February recruiting signing date, and 13 members of the coaching and non coaching staff were fired of cause. White was actually very fortunate that he could persuade Heupel to be our HC. At this point in time, I think we are very lucky to be were we are. Kudos to the Administration for what they have been able to accomplish under the worst of conditions. Our football program is in a complete rebuilt position. We will recover and we will be back among the best teams in the SEC in 2-4 years.

I agree with your position on the Pruitt hire, like six days after his emergency hire, BUT, he is still responsible, he knew the stain will still exist and did the honorable thing. I feel like his replacement this time is a fit and i HOPE that he is successful. AD's since Dickey and HC since CPF have been a disaster and that seems to carry over to the entire department. But the current trajectory since the CPF hire, save football has been pretty solid or better. Doing the right things, and simply supporting some programs has worked out. Got to get football fixed, and that will be tough with black drapes hanging over your head, but just got to move forward with class..... think we got guys that can do that in place.

 

[VOLINVONORE]

I agree with your position on the Pruitt hire, like six days after his emergency hire, BUT, he is still responsible, he knew the stain will still exist and did the honorable thing. I feel like his replacement this time is a fit and i HOPE that he is successful. AD's since Dickey and HC since CPF have been a disaster and that seems to carry over to the entire department. But the current trajectory since the CPF hire, save football has been pretty solid or better. Doing the right things, and simply supporting some programs has worked out. Got to get football fixed, and that will be tough with black drapes hanging over your head, but just got to move forward with class..... think we got guys that can do that in place.

I am not saying he is not responsible. He is. as it turns out he left the program in the worst shape of any of the last 4 coaches, It will take time for us to recover from his actions.

 

[Vols4us]

Didn’t have a chance to explain the other day..... I use to think stars and offer lists were all that mattered.... I came to realize that the most important attribute is being able to scout players and know which players fit your system..... I don’t know if hype and his staff can do that but it’s the most important quality in a coach..... As a coach/program grows eventually the stars and evaluations will coincide with each other.... The key is getting a few stars(especially at QB) and have solid players fill out the rest of your class..... in this covid year..... most recruiting sites/coaches have never even seen this kid play or properly evaluated him...... I am hoping this situation helps our staff get a great start towards building the program.

Spot on. There are good reasons over 50% of the NFL's players are 3* rated or less. Evals of coaches and their scouts matter most.

Example: Stepping into the Titan line-up and blocking for the #1 rushing back in the league, Derrick Henry, at some point will be OT Dillion Radunz of North Dakota State as the #53 pick in the draft who was unrated by Rivals in HS. He had CFB 5 offers and the only FCS level one was from Wyoming. Competing with him for the job are Ty Sambrailo and Kendall Lamm. Ty was also a second round pick of Denver from G5 Colorado State and a Rivals rated 2* at 5.1 out of HS, who is now entering his 7th year in the league. CSU was his only FCS out of 4 offers. Then there is Kendall, who played at G5 Appy State and was unrated. Chose Appy over Marshall and GA Southern with two lower level offers and is also in his 7th year in the league as a former UFA. People on here would lose their minds if we recruited and signed them. Yet, look what happened.

It's not how you start, it's how you finish. Since there are only a small handful of schools who can stock a roster full of polished players out of HS, everybody else has to develop well. Clemson was not Clemson until Dabo/staff started developing the diamonds in the rough. Now they can be more picky. Phil beat Bama regularly with top talent, until over time and with the right coaching staffs that could develop Bama flipped it their way. Now they can restock with the most talented out of HS year after year as long as whoever succeeds Saban can keep it going. Prove up what you do as a staff and the more talented will come.

Heup can do that IMO because he is an innovator and leader. We just need to give him time and let him prove it.