Fraudulent Christians

[lukeneyland]

Uh, people were justifying slavery. There were thousands of African slave traders. It wasn’t a “Christian” Thing.

120 years ago in those western, Christian areas, things were better than they are now in much of the 3rd world. About 1.5 million die every year from TB. You are assuming those things happened apart from Christian influence. Much of the art, music and innovation were prompted by Christian society.

The Barbary pirates in North Africa were enslaving Europeans generations before Europeans began buying African slaves

 

[MontyPython]

I just like the title of this thread.

Reflects my life experiences to date.

Kudos, Mr. Tyler Durden!

 

[lukeneyland]

I didn't say it was a Christian thing. The point is that their religion didn't civilize Christians enough in nearly 2k years to stop justifying the practice. Economic progress and education are what did it. I think we became more moral in that regard in large part because we could afford to and our increasing intellect stopped allowing us to justify it.

Education and wealth is what led us to defeat TB in the first world. Science, which has been opposed by Christian leaders throughout history, is the reason for that. Although Christians worldwide now encourage education for all, that wasn't the case for a long time, and they still oppose science in many instances to this day. People weren't even allowed by their religious leaders to read the Bible, back in the day.

We can't really get anywhere with this conversation because pointing to things that Christians did with superior wealth and education doesn't really counter my point.

I'm responding specifically to the last paragraph you wrote in this post. What was it about European and Christian society allowed them to amass wealth and have a superior standard of education. That's where culture comes in to the conversation and at that point I think Christianity might become a factor. I like this conversation

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

Relative to our standards today they'd be considered fairly barbaric, about like how parts of the Islamic world remain today. But if you compare those Christian societies to contemporary societies, then the Christian ones are probably going to come out more favorably

You forget the rich oil nations near the Persian Gulf. Better economies equal better quality of life.

Let’s not forget how the European Christians tried to destroy Greek culture, which was saved by Islam. Their Golden Age helped Europe.

 

[n_huffhines]

I'm responding specifically to the last paragraph you wrote in this post. What was it about European and Christian society allowed them to amass wealth and have a superior standard of education. That's where culture comes in to the conversation and at that point I think Christianity might become a factor. I like this conversation

Culture is part of it. So is geography. So is access to resources. So is colonialism. Etc.

I concede that Christianity has something to do with advances in society, but saying it "tends to civilize" is not a statement I'm willing to accept. It existed while we became more civilized. It even had something to do with it. Tends to? Nah. It stood in the way of progress in a million different ways. We'd probably still be living in a feudal system if the longbow hadn't been invented.

 

[Roustabout]

Jesus would side with liberals on allowing gays to have rights, so....

jesus would have dismissed anyone who talked about "rights," period.

Abortion is a tough question that could have been cleared up easily by the Bible and/or Jesus but they skipped right over discussing when a fertilized egg becomes a human life

.
Why would they discuss it? There were no early pregnancy tests. Plus, there were stiff penalties for sex out of wedlock, adultery and rape. So, unwanted pregnancy was likely not even a thought.

Anti-religion...there are anti-religious people on the left, but it's not a platform. This is easily reconcilable for people who put more importance on policies they think will make the world a better place.

What do you mean it's not a platform? There is literally a group called, "Freedom from religion." They are a non-profit and file law suits all the time. It's absolutely a platform and one that has the ear of the democratic party.

 

[Purple Tiger]

You forget the rich oil nations near the Persian Gulf. Better economies equal better quality of life.

Let’s not forget how the European Christians tried to destroy Greek culture, which was saved by Islam. Their Golden Age helped Europe.

Or that science, higher mathematics, philosophy, law, democracy and medicine came from pagan people.

I would challenge those who are giddy about Christian culture creating wealth to recall that many of the great fortunes amassed in Europe in the Renaissance and modern era grew out of usury, slavery, weapons manufacturing, war and colonialization - all of which (except slavery) are counter to Christian teachings..

 

[n_huffhines]

jesus would have dismissed anyone who talked about "rights," period.

Yeah. Right before he gave them electro-shock therapy.

Why would they discuss it? There were no early pregnancy tests. Plus, there were stiff penalties for sex out of wedlock, adultery and rape. So, unwanted pregnancy was likely not even a thought.

You don't think abortion was a thing 2k years ago? Stiff penalties for sex out of wedlock is all the more reason to have an abortion. You can't be serious with this. Assyrian Law mentioned it. I wonder why God's law didn't?

History of abortion - Wikipedia

What do you mean it's not a platform? There is literally a group called, "Freedom from religion." They are a non-profit and file law suits all the time. It's absolutely a platform and one that has the ear of the democratic party.

Dude

Party Platform - Democrats

 

[Roustabout]

Yeah. Right before he gave them electro-shock therapy.

i don’t know what this even means

You don't think abortion was a thing 2k years ago? Stiff penalties for sex out of wedlock is all the more reason to have an abortion. You can't be serious with this. Assyrian Law mentioned it. I wonder why God's law didn't?

History of abortion - Wikipedia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_abortion
Like today? No. You’re reaching. I doubt you know much about ANE culture other than what you find on Wikipedia.

 

[lukeneyland]

Culture is part of it. So is geography. So is access to resources. So is colonialism. Etc.

I concede that Christianity has something to do with advances in society, but saying it "tends to civilize" is not a statement I'm willing to accept. It existed while we became more civilized. It even had something to do with it. Tends to? Nah. It stood in the way of progress in a million different ways. We'd probably still be living in a feudal system if the longbow hadn't been invented.

Then we agree on labelling as a contributing factor but not the only one. I find that you mentioned geography and resources interesting. It would seem to me that the many eventually successful European civilizations were able to prosper almost in spite of their geographic situation. Britain probably being the best example. In my opinion it'd be hard to find a civilization that started out as disadvantaged as the English. Yet they went on to almost rule the world. How was feudalism brought to an end by the long now, or was that a joke that I'm too dense to get

 

[lukeneyland]

You forget the rich oil nations near the Persian Gulf. Better economies equal better quality of life.

Let’s not forget how the European Christians tried to destroy Greek culture, which was saved by Islam. Their Golden Age helped Europe.

Aren't these the same oil rich nations that are importing thousands of South Asian laborers and working them to death almost like slaves? How did the Europeans almost destroy Greek culture? I know for a fact that up until the the early 19th century that the Ottoman empire ruled over and tyrannized the Greeks. It wasn't until the 1820's that the Greeks aided mainly by Britain were able to defeat the Turks and become an independent nation. Islam was no friend of the Greeks

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

Aren't these the same oil rich nations that are importing thousands of South Asian laborers and working them to death almost like slaves? How did the Europeans almost destroy Greek culture? I know for a fact that up until the the early 19th century that the Ottoman empire ruled over and tyrannized the Greeks. It wasn't until the 1820's that the Greeks aided mainly by Britain were able to defeat the Turks and become an independent nation. Islam was no friend of the Greeks

Probably since there’s not enough workers. Worked to death? I don’t know about that. Underpaid and mistreated? Probably. Same could be said for Hispanic workers in our country. Christianity has no place to talk about treating others as slaves. You can easily look at Belgium in Africa, Britains exploitation of its colonies, the South using Christianity as a divine right to hold slaves.

Christianity was known for its book burnings of any religion considered pagan in Europe. Islam helped translate these books.

I can’t speak specifically about Greece but I’ve read of how other religions were tolerated under Islamic rule for a while. Christians were known for the wide spread persecution’s of other Christians, people that spoke against scientific beliefs, and Jews especially.

 

[BigOrangeTrain]

You won't go to heaven unless you give me 10% of your income.

Ignorance personified

 

[marcusluvsvols]

There are plenty of misdeeds that can be laid at the feet of the Catholic church, crusades etc. The Protestants have a relatively clean record, but no group of people will ever be without their sins. I can't even begin to form a logical argument that paints Islam in a more favorable light than Christianity...as it pertains to any human rights. Islam is archaic, to this very day treating women as possessions and beating them is condoned, "honor killings" of their own daughters/sons, stoning/killing of gays, while in fact men and young boys behind closed doors is said to be rampant. A religion whose own "prophet" took a 7yo girl as a wife, and had sex with her at 9 years old.

Probably best not to discuss the merits of Islam with any non-muslim which has actually taken the time to read the Quran. I have read it, sura by sura (verse). It is filled with commands to lie, kill, beat your wife if you choose to (with a stick if you want, just not 1 bigger around than your thumb) and to do whatever it takes to conquer the "infidel" (anyone not muslim)...whether that be deceiving or murdering them.

Arguing the merits of a religion stuck in the stone age in a conversation about cultural progress is a lost cause. In before the atheists and agnostics start quoting the old testament in an attempt to knock Christianity...not realizing the New Covenant of Christ freed all believers from those things 2000 years ago. Ignorance of subject matter has never slowed an argument in the PF though...so teach all of us dumb Christians about that Bible you've never read in 3 ..2.....1....

 

[Roustabout]

Probably since there’s not enough workers. Worked to death? I don’t know about that. Underpaid and mistreated? Probably. Same could be said for Hispanic workers in our country. Christianity has no place to talk about treating others as slaves. You can easily look at Belgium in Africa, Britains exploitation of its colonies, the South using Christianity as a divine right to hold slaves.

Christianity was known for its book burnings of any religion considered pagan in Europe. Islam helped translate these books.

I can’t speak specifically about Greece but I’ve read of how other religions were tolerated under Islamic rule for a while. Christians were known for the wide spread persecution’s of other Christians, people that spoke against scientific beliefs, and Jews especially.

You got a real axe to grind don’t you?

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

You got a real axe to grind don’t you?

No. I just stated it how it is. Christianity is pretty much like any other religion.

 

[lukeneyland]

Probably since there’s not enough workers. Worked to death? I don’t know about that. Underpaid and mistreated? Probably. Same could be said for Hispanic workers in our country. Christianity has no place to talk about treating others as slaves. You can easily look at Belgium in Africa, Britains exploitation of its colonies, the South using Christianity as a divine right to hold slaves.

Christianity was known for its book burnings of any religion considered pagan in Europe. Islam helped translate these books.

I can’t speak specifically about Greece but I’ve read of how other religions were tolerated under Islamic rule for a while. Christians were known for the wide spread persecution’s of other Christians, people that spoke against scientific beliefs, and Jews especially.

Many of them have died, especially in the UAE if I'm not mistaken. It's no hyperbole on my part, migrant workers are seriously mistreated in that part of the world. This is going on today in the 21st century. The same sort of thing is not happening anywhere in the modern Christian World. Hispanics being treated like slaves? That's an exaggeration, half of Texas is Hispanic. Hell one of our senators is Hispanic. That's an exaggeration on your part. Yes the Christian World has done some truly awful things over the centuries, but the Islamic world was no different. Ever heard of a Eunuch? The defining difference is that while the Christian World has done some horrendous things, it's also contributed to the development of the world in ways that the Islamic world never has. The Christian World has also developed, evolved and become more tolerant. Certainly not a Christ like level of tolerance, but we don't murder women for having sex, or stone homosexuals, or have region consuming religious civil wars anymore. The West and Christians as a whole are flawed and sometimes hypocritical. But the fact that we are even able to have this conversation extolls the virtues of Christan and Western Civilization.Simply typing this would probably get me sent to the chopping block in Saudi Arabia. I've always found It curious how tolerant American liberals are of Islam, when the religion is antithesis to most of everything liberals in this nation care about. Obviously I'm biased as hell, I'm a Christian, (not a good one though). And I'm extremely resentful/ skeptical of much of the Islamic world

 

[lukeneyland]

No. I just stated it how it is. Christianity is pretty much like any other religion.

The way we've evolved would contradict that statement

 

[TheTromboneVol]

Religion was invented to explain the unexplained. It’s still here because people realized that they could make a lot of money off people who can’t think for themselves

 

[Wafflestomper]

There are plenty of misdeeds that can be laid at the feet of the Catholic church, crusades etc. The Protestants have a relatively clean record, but no group of people will ever be without their sins. I can't even begin to form a logical argument that paints Islam in a more favorable light than Christianity...as it pertains to any human rights. Islam is archaic, to this very day treating women as possessions and beating them is condoned, "honor killings" of their own daughters/sons, stoning/killing of gays, while in fact men and young boys behind closed doors is said to be rampant. A religion whose own "prophet" took a 7yo girl as a wife, and had sex with her at 9 years old.

Probably best not to discuss the merits of Islam with any non-muslim which has actually taken the time to read the Quran. I have read it, sura by sura (verse). It is filled with commands to lie, kill, beat your wife if you choose to (with a stick if you want, just not 1 bigger around than your thumb) and to do whatever it takes to conquer the "infidel" (anyone not muslim)...whether that be deceiving or murdering them.

Arguing the merits of a religion stuck in the stone age in a conversation about cultural progress is a lost cause. In before the atheists and agnostics start quoting the old testament in an attempt to knock Christianity...not realizing the New Covenant of Christ freed all believers from those things 2000 years ago. Ignorance of subject matter has never slowed an argument in the PF though...so teach all of us dumb Christians about that Bible you've never read in 3 ..2.....1....

"My argument against God was that the universe seemed so cruel and unjust. But how had I got this idea of just and unjust? A man does not call a line crooked unless he has some idea of a straight line. What was I comparing this universe with when I called it unjust?"

If Islam is true then maybe all those things are actually virtuous.

 

[Roustabout]

No. I just stated it how it is. Christianity is pretty much like any other religion.

I question whether you’re really willing and able to have that discussion.

What you are really saying is that people corrupt institutions and philosophies equally. A philosophy should never be judged by its abuse. The tenets of Christianity are not like any other religion.

There are many factors and influence on western civilization. Still, to try and smear the Christian philosophy by those who clearly ignored its tenets is pretty sad on your part.

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

I question whether you’re really willing and able to have that discussion.

What you are really saying is that people corrupt institutions and philosophies equally. A philosophy should never be judged by its abuse. The tenets of Christianity are not like any other religion.

There are many factors and influence on western civilization. Still, to try and smear the Christian philosophy by those who clearly ignored its tenets is pretty sad on your part.

All religions are man made therefore they are fallible. You can point out its flaws in its moral beliefs when looking at the Bible. There are plenty of genocides and questionable acts in the name of God. Laws such as stealing, murder, etc. are ideas that pretty much any civilization believes in.

 

[USMC-TNVOL]

Many of them have died, especially in the UAE if I'm not mistaken. It's no hyperbole on my part, migrant workers are seriously mistreated in that part of the world. This is going on today in the 21st century. The same sort of thing is not happening anywhere in the modern Christian World. Hispanics being treated like slaves? That's an exaggeration, half of Texas is Hispanic. Hell one of our senators is Hispanic. That's an exaggeration on your part. Yes the Christian World has done some truly awful things over the centuries, but the Islamic world was no different. Ever heard of a Eunuch? The defining difference is that while the Christian World has done some horrendous things, it's also contributed to the development of the world in ways that the Islamic world never has. The Christian World has also developed, evolved and become more tolerant. Certainly not a Christ like level of tolerance, but we don't murder women for having sex, or stone homosexuals, or have region consuming religious civil wars anymore. The West and Christians as a whole are flawed and sometimes hypocritical. But the fact that we are even able to have this conversation extolls the virtues of Christan and Western Civilization.Simply typing this would probably get me sent to the chopping block in Saudi Arabia. I've always found It curious how tolerant American liberals are of Islam, when the religion is antithesis to most of everything liberals in this nation care about. Obviously I'm biased as hell, I'm a Christian, (not a good one though). And I'm extremely resentful/ skeptical of much of the Islamic world

I never said Hispanics were mistreated like slaves, but the illegal migrant workers are certainly mistreated. You need to only go back 50-60 years to see our Christian country severely mistreating black people during the civil rights era, especially in the very Christian south. Our morals evolved over time, not religion’s.

The ability to have this conversation has more to do with our rights to stand the test of time by keeping freedom of speech and religion out of the government.

I think Islam, as a whole, is the most dangerous thing right now, which probably began when Wahhabism started in the 1800s. However, we can look at the western world and previously the USSR for issues we still see today in Arab and African countries such as Iran and Iraq where the dangerous ideologies took over when they overthrew the dictatorships installed by other countries.

 

[Purple Tiger]

There are plenty of misdeeds that can be laid at the feet of the Catholic church, crusades etc. The Protestants have a relatively clean record, but no group of people will ever be without their sins.

In our own country, the persecuted African Americans, Quakers, Anabaptists, Puritans, Irish, Polish, other Catholics and witches in Salem all say hi.

 

[lukeneyland]

I never said Hispanics were mistreated like slaves, but the illegal migrant workers are certainly mistreated. You need to only go back 50-60 years to see our Christian country severely mistreating black people during the civil rights era, especially in the very Christian south. Our morals evolved over time, not religion’s.

The ability to have this conversation has more to do with our rights to stand the test of time by keeping freedom of speech and religion out of the government.

I think Islam, as a whole, is the most dangerous thing right now, which probably began when Wahhabism started in the 1800s. However, we can look at the western world and previously the USSR for issues we still see today in Arab and African countries such as Iran and Iraq where the dangerous ideologies took over when they overthrew the dictatorships installed by other countries.

I agree with most of what you put there. It should be noted that our countries mistreatment of black people is not because of Christianity, but rather in spite of it. Yes I know the "slaves obey your masters" verse but I don't think that God intended for us to interpret all of the Bible as a literal statement. I agree with your middle paragraph, but I aldoy don't think it's a coincidence that the nation's that allow for the most free speech have a sizable Christian population. On illegal immigrants being treated like slaves. They are certainly disadvantaged and probably are taken advantage of sometimes. However they are here illegally so I don't think it's illogical for the laws that regulate labor to not be applied to people that are here illegally. And I'm not an anti immigration guy either, I think there is an optimal amount