Fraudulent Christians

#251
#251
n_huffhines said:
Jesus would side with liberals on allowing gays to have rights, so....

Abortion is a tough question that could have been cleared up easily by the Bible and/or Jesus but they skipped right over discussing when a fertilized egg becomes a human life.

Anti-religion...there are anti-religious people on the left, but it's not a platform. This is easily reconcilable for people who put more importance on policies they think will make the world a better place.
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Jesus would not be for abortion or gay “marriage”. The rest is apolitical
 
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#252
#252
Rickyvol77 said:
Jesus would not be for abortion or gay “marriage”. The rest is apolitical
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I really don't like being that guy trying to put words in our saviors mouth. But I agree with you here. I think Jesus would have been kind, tolerant and loving to the Gay people. But that doesn't mean that's a behavior that he wants to see. I think there's a distinction between being tolerant and not giving in to the appeal of being self righteous. As opposed to actually agreeing with the behavior. Abortion? I'm not sure how anyone thinks that killing a baby is ok
 
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#254
#254
lukeneyland said:
I agree with most of what you put there. It should be noted that our countries mistreatment of black people is not because of Christianity, but rather in spite of it. Yes I know the "slaves obey your masters" verse but I don't think that God intended for us to interpret all of the Bible as a literal statement. I agree with your middle paragraph, but I aldoy don't think it's a coincidence that the nation's that allow for the most free speech have a sizable Christian population. On illegal immigrants being treated like slaves. They are certainly disadvantaged and probably are taken advantage of sometimes. However they are here illegally so I don't think it's illogical for the laws that regulate labor to not be applied to people that are here illegally. And I'm not an anti immigration guy either, I think there is an optimal amount
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The issue with saying everything shouldn’t be taken literal means everything is questionable in the Bible then.

If laws shouldn’t apply to illegals, then there’s no issue treating them like slaves then?

Our Freedom of speech is based on the idea from the Greeks before Christianity. Christians in Europe stamped that out (in regards to religion at least) once it became a dominating force. Our country was not founded on Christian principles and not all the founding fathers believed in religion.
 
#255
#255
rjd970 said:
What is the moral issue with gay marriage? Who is the victim?
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Marriage is a religious ceremony and Jesus was pretty clear on what His Father’s teachings were on it. It’s not about “hurting” anyone. The only reason this became a social issue is because the government became involved with marriage to make money off people
 
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#256
#256
USMC-TNVOL said:
All religions are man made therefore they are fallible. You can point out its flaws in its moral beliefs when looking at the Bible. There are plenty of genocides and questionable acts in the name of God. Laws such as stealing, murder, etc. are ideas that pretty much any civilization believes in.
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Like I said, I doubt you can have this conversation. Nice way to poison the he well and dismiss theism outright.

Laws may be a good idea, but ultimately why should you or I follow them? Christian theism goes way beyond law.
If Jesus rose from the dead then every thing you just mentioned has to filtered through that reality. If not, it doesn’t matter.
 
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#258
#258
Roustabout said:
Like I said, I doubt you can have this conversation. Nice way to poison the he well and dismiss theism outright.

Laws may be a good idea, but ultimately why should you or I follow them? Christian theism goes way beyond law.
If Jesus rose from the dead then every thing you just mentioned has to filtered through that reality. If not, it doesn’t matter.
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Poison the well? That’s laughable. Men already did that when they created religion. The point of following laws/morals is part of our drive to survive as a civilization. If the Bible was the end all for morality, no civilizations could have thrived beforehand.

Yeah, if Jesus rose from the dead I guess I would be proven wrong about religion, but apparently the New Testament mentions many others raising from the grave as well. So why was his so special?
 
#259
#259
USMC-TNVOL said:
The issue with saying everything shouldn’t be taken literal means everything is questionable in the Bible then.

If laws shouldn’t apply to illegals, then there’s no issue treating them like slaves then?

Our Freedom of speech is based on the idea from the Greeks before Christianity. Christians in Europe stamped that out (in regards to religion at least) once it became a dominating force. Our country was not founded on Christian principles and not all the founding fathers believed in religion.
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I’d agree it’s wrong to say our country was founded on Christian principals. It’s also wrong to dismiss the faith of many of our founders and Christianity’s influence. You have Paine who was the only FF antagonistic towards faith. Franklin and Jefferson were deist and have a mismatch of quotes that contradict. But you also have dozens who were faithful and fervent believers, even ministers. So, they were strongly influenced by their faith and were well aware that they were governing a Christian people. By today’s standards Franklin and Jefferson would be viewed as men of faith. it’s only against the backdrop of their time and positioned against those like Patrick Henry or John Jay.
Christian practice was so normally integrated into everyday life no one thought twice about using government buildings for worship. Prayer was common if not always practiced in sessions of Congress.

The fundamentals of independence that the nation stands on are our basic human rights being endowed by our creator. That was something all the FFs proudly signed. Wisely, they made sure that the government could not institute or coerce the practice of religion, which is fundamentally contrary to Christian belief. Having seen, first hand, the affect of such abuse in England and across Europe they acted accordingly.
 
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#260
#260
USMC-TNVOL said:
Poison the well? That’s laughable. Men already did that when they created religion. The point of following laws/morals is part of our drive to survive as a civilization. If the Bible was the end all for morality, no civilizations could have thrived beforehand.

Yeah, if Jesus rose from the dead I guess I would be proven wrong about religion, but apparently the New Testament mentions many others raising from the grave as well. So why was his so special?
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You just doubled down on poisoning the well.
Everyone worships something my friend.

Your statement doesn’t follow. The Bible isn’t morality. It is a revelation of the source of morality.

So, It’s interesting that you wouldn’t try minimize Jesus’ resurrection as “common.” LOL
 
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#261
#261
Rickyvol77 said:
Marriage is a religious ceremony and Jesus was pretty clear on what His Father’s teachings were on it. It’s not about “hurting” anyone. The only reason this became a social issue is because the government became involved with marriage to make money off people
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Some marriages are religious ceremonies. Others are not.
 
#262
#262
Ten_Titans said:
The better question is... Why does the government concern itself with the institution of marriage?
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The flip side of that is why do people concern themselves with who the government allows to get married instead of just concerning themselves with who is allowed to get married in their church?
 
#263
#263
Roustabout said:
You just doubled down on poisoning the well.
Everyone worships something my friend.

Your statement doesn’t follow. The Bible isn’t morality. It is a revelation of the source of morality.

So, It’s interesting that you wouldn’t try minimize Jesus’ resurrection as “common.” LOL
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Not everyone believes in a fictional dictator that sees everything we do.

I didn’t minimize it. The New Testament did with its fictional stories of many rising from the dead
 
#264
#264
clarksvol00 said:
The flip side of that is why do people concern themselves with who the government allows to get married instead of just concerning themselves with who is allowed to get married in their church?
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Except there is a reason (at least a hypothetical reason) the government is involved in marriage.

The government has a theoretical interest in making sure kids grow up to be successful, and marriage is primarily an institution to benefit children.

I know we like to pretend two parent households aren't better now. But if you're looking for a logical reason why gay people may be excluded from the benefits of legal marriage, that's the reason. Gay marriage has nothing to do with the next generation of Americans outside of adoption.

Marriage as a concept in this country is so broken that I don't care at all if gay people get married or not. A gay marriage is no more of a sham than 90% of straight marriages.

I understand why gay people would want the mild tax benefits of marriage. I don't understand why anyone would care about their government marriage license outside of that.
 
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#265
#265
NEO said:
In the Bible it was actually closer to 12%, not 10%. The 10% is crucial because you are suppose to give back to the church and the church is suppose to then turn around and use it to help the poor and advance the ministry. The issue is many, many, many churches have not done this and this is evil.


All churches should show where their money goes and how it is being spent. If it's going into the preachers pocket and he is on a yacht or suddenly flying around in a private plane then that church has lost it's way.

You dont go into the ministry to become rich.
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I thought the 10% referred to 10% of crops & livestock to help support the Levites in Jerusalem since they didn't have any land?
 
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#267
#267
Ten_Titans said:
Except there is a reason (at least a hypothetical reason) the government is involved in marriage.

The government has a theoretical interest in making sure kids grow up to be successful, and marriage is primarily an institution to benefit children.

I know we like to pretend two parent households aren't better now. But if you're looking for a logical reason why gay people may be excluded from the benefits of legal marriage, that's the reason. Gay marriage has nothing to do with the next generation of Americans outside of adoption.

Marriage as a concept in this country is so broken that I don't care at all if gay people get married or not. A gay marriage is no more of a sham than 90% of straight marriages.

I understand why gay people would want the mild tax benefits of marriage. I don't understand why anyone would care about their government marriage license outside of that.
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The thing about that is, you're not required to be married to have kids.
 
#268
#268
clarksvol00 said:
The thing about that is, you're not required to be married to have kids.
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Because that would be a pretty major violation of freedom. But that doesn't mean the government can't use benefits to encourage marriage, and children are the reason for doing so.

That is just hypothetical though. Like I said, the concept of marriage is so effed up now I'm fine with the government handing out marriage certificates to whoever wants one. Or even better, get out of the business of marriage altogether. Whichever.
 
#269
#269
Roustabout said:
I’d agree it’s wrong to say our country was founded on Christian principals. It’s also wrong to dismiss the faith of many of our founders and Christianity’s influence. You have Paine who was the only FF antagonistic towards faith. Franklin and Jefferson were deist and have a mismatch of quotes that contradict. But you also have dozens who were faithful and fervent believers, even ministers. So, they were strongly influenced by their faith and were well aware that they were governing a Christian people. By today’s standards Franklin and Jefferson would be viewed as men of faith. it’s only against the backdrop of their time and positioned against those like Patrick Henry or John Jay.
Christian practice was so normally integrated into everyday life no one thought twice about using government buildings for worship. Prayer was common if not always practiced in sessions of Congress.

The fundamentals of independence that the nation stands on are our basic human rights being endowed by our creator. That was something all the FFs proudly signed. Wisely, they made sure that the government could not institute or coerce the practice of religion, which is fundamentally contrary to Christian belief. Having seen, first hand, the affect of such abuse in England and across Europe they acted accordingly.
Click to expand...

While many were religious, the notable ones showed deistic tendencies such as Franklin and Jefferson. Even Washington was debated on whether he was religious. Franklin and Jefferson would not be viewed men of “faith” for the fact they didn’t believe in any miracles from religion. If they had the knowledge of today, they would probably be agnostic or atheist. I think some would have been more open if they lived in a society that was less religious.

The constitution itself does not mention god. I think the only mention of it in the declaration is “nature’s god.”
 
#270
#270
Rickyvol77 said:
Marriage is a religious ceremony and Jesus was pretty clear on what His Father’s teachings were on it. It’s not about “hurting” anyone. The only reason this became a social issue is because the government became involved with marriage to make money off people
Click to expand...

So the whole moral issue with gay marriage is for no other reason than God said so? There is no compelling academic moral issue?

And marriage doesn’t have to be religious. I know this because I went down to the courthouse and got one.
 
#272
#272
rjd970 said:
So the whole moral issue with gay marriage is for no other reason than God said so? There is no compelling academic moral issue?

And marriage doesn’t have to be religious. I know this because I went down to the courthouse and got one.
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Civil unions and actual marriage are not the same thing
 
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#274
#274
Rickyvol77 said:
Marriage is a religious ceremony and Jesus was pretty clear on what His Father’s teachings were on it. It’s not about “hurting” anyone. The only reason this became a social issue is because the government became involved with marriage to make money off people
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The whole concept of a marriage license is nonsense
 
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